#Lightning Bolt


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 09:22

#Lightning Bolt

Warning; this is a sort of rant.

I don't know about you but electrical resistance is hard to find. I sometimes have a potion or two of resistance. I'm fighting some wizards and then suddenly, one of them knows lightning bolt and shoots at me from across the room. Yes, I could have; used a scroll of fog, right clicked on him to learn what it had, or drank a potion of resistance, just in case. But I didn't because I was five hours in to the game (not in one session) and felt, just for a brief moment, I didn't have to neurotically check everything. The wizard in question could also see invisible. My Armour class was 34 and my Shield Class was 41 (with enhancements from the shining 1)

I was in the Crypt at Level 23 (4 away from human max) with two runes, facing off against a random Ancient Lich.

Sigh... I just wanted to beat this game for the second time. I have only ever beaten this game once playing as a Vinestalker fighter. Winning as a human would put the cherry on the cake of my human fighter walk-through. I have lost to random lightning sooooo many times. Whenever I get a scroll of acquirement, I only go for jewelry, in the hope I get something electrically resistant. I could suggest that game mechanically, lightning could, instead of being it's own element, have a high chance of paralysis. I don't know how that would affect the balance of everything else though.

Is there anything else I can do to make electricity less scary? This is really bumming me out and I'm gonna have to take a long break from this game.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 10:13

Re: #Lightning Bolt

To be able to win reliably you need to learn when to escape. Fighting several wizards when a single lightning bolt can kill you is a bad idea. Fighting Ancient Lich along with other monsters is also a bad idea. Some levels don't give you choice but Crypt is not among them. Did you have haste/blinking/teleportation to escape and then kill those monsters in more favorable position?
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 10:47

Re: #Lightning Bolt

Checking over my High score log I see that I had no scrolls of blinking and 3 scrolls of teleportation. I did not have Elyvilon by my side so I would not have been able to ask for divine protection (Invulnerability shield) whilst it was charging. I also had a sword of resist electricity but it does not have holy branding so I would not have been super effective against the Re-living.

Edit: I see that I had 3 potions of haste but lightning has such a long range and I was in a very open plan space when he showed me he knows lightning bolt
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 11:09

Re: #Lightning Bolt

HawkI wrote:Checking over my High score log I see that I had no scrolls of blinking and 3 scrolls of teleportation. I did not have Elyvilon by my side so I would not have been able to ask for divine protection (Invulnerability shield) whilst it was charging. I also had a sword of resist electricity but it does not have holy branding so I would not have been super effective against the Re-living.

Edit: I see that I had 3 potions of haste but lightning has such a long range and I was in a very open plan space when he showed me he knows lightning bolt


Did you have any agility potions? Aside from resistance, high EV is also good protection. Sure, it's not the most reliable of things, but it does work. If I'm not mistaken, having RMsl also helps.
I do play AEs quite a lot, so I know just how devastating lightning bolts can be. In PC hands, they can do !!!! dmg on a lucky roll, more when bounced off a wall or terrain feature.

Edited: You also listed your SH value (unless using the Mirror fixedart, bolts ignore it) and AC (lightning ignores half of it).
Last edited by Sorcerous on Thursday, 25th April 2019, 11:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 11:12

Re: #Lightning Bolt

I think that with good play you could probably have avoided being in a fight with 2 wizards and an ancient lich. Blink/teleport/haste is not required, because Formicids too can avoid such fights (at least in my experience).
I've also had to learn that wizards are dangerous through some unfortunate deaths. I tend to prioritise killing them ASAP, and if I have >1 wizard in LOS I often treat it as an emergency. Wizard Lightning deals at most 51 damage, so most characters can afford to run away if they decide to do so early enough.

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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 11:24

Re: #Lightning Bolt

Good responses. How do I post my autopsy?

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 12:26

Re: #Lightning Bolt

You can click on "Post Reply", then "Code", and copy-paste your character dump into the the code bracket, like this:

Hi!


(Click on 'Quote' below this message to view the source code, if it's still not clear.)

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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 12:30

Re: #Lightning Bolt

(Offline) The final .txt file should be under /morgue, with the character name and date in the file name. You can copy the entire thing, post it on pastebin.com (free service, no registration needed). Once that's done, you can just copy the link and post it in this thread.
For example: https://pastebin.com/PBQ00JQV

(Online) Post the link to your final chardump in the thread, it should be along the lines of:
https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/user ... arname.txt

A lot of people also paste the file contents inside [code] tags, but I tend to only post small parts of a chardump that way. Use whichever solution works for you.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 13:37

Re: #Lightning Bolt

https://pastebin.com/ZpgHm0CC
https://pastebin.com/21An8J2L

I have calmed down now. I am going to try playing Dwarf Fortress Adventure mode whilst I am on my hiatus from Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 14:13

Re: #Lightning Bolt

I am not sure why you are talking about wizards when it was an Ancient Lich.
  Code:
The ancient lich casts a spell at you.
The bolt of lightning hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You block the skeletal warrior's attack.
You feel better.
The ancient lich gestures at you while chanting.
The bolt of lightning hits you!
You die...

You could see a bone dragon, an ancient lich, a skeletal warrior and a flying
skull.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 14:14

Re: #Lightning Bolt

True, haste/blinking/teleportation are not required but they are among the best escape tools (and you really need the best one when Ancient Lich starts bolting you with lightning when you don' have rElec).
I think lightning ignores 2/3 AC, not 1/2.

PS. By the way Ancient Lich is arguable the most dangerous monster in 3 rune game and is not met often, don't neglect to check its spells.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 15:18

Re: #Lightning Bolt

Ah, when I refer to wizards I'm thinking of previous runs. The ancient lich was not a floor boss; He was just some guy. I have never considered drinking a potion of agility to help dodge projectiles. That's a whole new use for me. As you can see, it only takes me about 5 hours to get that far. I suppose it's not that bad, to lose like that, all in-game things considered.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 18:22

Re: #Lightning Bolt

HawkI wrote:https://pastebin.com/21An8J2L.


Your problems here go a lot deeper than a 39 damage lightning bolt.

- Using a terrible base weapon type.
- Overtrained shields
- Undertrained Fighting
- No Dodging training at all
- Crypt:3 before Depths
- Equipment looks very basic. Probably missed many good items on the floor.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 18:31

Re: #Lightning Bolt

HawkI wrote:Ah, when I refer to wizards I'm thinking of previous runs. The ancient lich was not a floor boss; He was just some guy. I have never considered drinking a potion of agility to help dodge projectiles. That's a whole new use for me. As you can see, it only takes me about 5 hours to get that far. I suppose it's not that bad, to lose like that, all in-game things considered.

Things I see at first glance:

You're fighting in the open and nearly surrounded by bad stuff, (Including one of the most dangerous critters in the game) when there's a corridor nearby that you could've retreated into to limit the number of things you're fighting at a time, particularly since you had plenty of time to do so:
  Code:
 66833 | Crypt:3  | Noticed an ancient lich
 66858 | Crypt:3  | HP: 1/184 [ancient lich/bolt of lightning (55)]
 66859 | Crypt:3  | Killed from afar by an ancient lich

You're in a dangerous fight with no summoned angels about.
You aren't using cleansing flame against a clump of undead.
You are generally underusing your god abilities:
  Code:
God:    the Shining One [******]

Invok:
       Divine Shield     |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    13 ||    13
       Cleansing Flame   |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     4 ||     4
       Summon Divine War |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2

Your last several moves were ineffective and not attempts to escape when you were already in serious danger:
  Code:
he wavering orb of destruction weakly hits you!
You block the bone dragon's attack.
The bone dragon claws you but does no damage.
The bone dragon tramples you but does no damage.
j - a ring of protection from cold (right hand)
You block the skeletal warrior's attack.
The ancient lich completely misses you. You riposte.
Your shield prevents you from hitting the ancient lich.
Your shield is strengthened by the Shining One's divine power.
You feel slightly more hungry.
The bone dragon bites you but does no damage.
You block the bone dragon's attack. x2
The ancient lich casts a spell at you.
The bolt of lightning hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You block the skeletal warrior's attack.
You feel better.
The ancient lich gestures at you while chanting.
The bolt of lightning hits you!
You die...

You didn't use silence against the nastiest silenceable creature in the game:
  Code:
 F - 2 scrolls of silence

In short to avoid this death, you needed to start avoiding it about 20 turns earlier, when you first saw the ancient lich you shoud've retreated towards the corridor, summoned some angels and lured him to his doom, plausibly using some holy wrath to soften him up and silence to shut down his spellcasting at the very first whiff of possible danger.
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Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 23:28

Re: #Lightning Bolt

Siegurt nailed it. I'll just add, this is another reason why I like to take Gozag before reaching into the extended regions of the game, because if you focus on armour and jewelry shops, it becomes much easier to assemble a strong set of gear which includes full coverage of all the basic resistances, which is important. Secondly, whenever possible you want the spell deflect missiles. It's quite a big deal, really.

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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 25th April 2019, 23:43

Re: #Lightning Bolt

Siegurt wrote: You're fighting in the open and nearly surrounded by bad stuff, (Including one of the most dangerous critters in the game)


XD XD XD The Lich King is just some guy; He's not a level boss; He's just some regular dude. If he's so scary, how comes he's not a level boss XD XD XD

Ok, so yes, I could have been a lot more careful around 'regular person' but to tell you the truth I was just so aghast about losing to electricity again that I just kind of gave up.

I am going to take this opportunity to defend my walk through

- Using a terrible base weapon type. ----------------- Only my long sword was holy
- Overtrained shields ------------------ It would have sped up my sword swinging if I got to 25
- Undertrained Fighting ------------------ Shield priority; Auto, not me
- No Dodging training at all ------------------- I am in super heavy armor so this would be futile
- Crypt:3 before Depths ----------------------- I pressed } and abyss comes after Vault rune
- Equipment looks very basic. Probably missed many good items on the floor. --------------- To be fair you didn't know I hadn't fully explored Elven hall. They also had plenty bringing the thunder.

I hope I don't come across as stubborn or argumentative. I just wish electric resistance in ring form was easier to come by.
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Zot Zealot

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Post Friday, 26th April 2019, 00:44

Re: #Lightning Bolt

So I think it's clear the big problems are: 1) bad tactics (you were fighting lots of things at once, and you underestimated ancient lich) and 2) bad strategy (bad skills, wrong branch)

But to answer these responses:
Only my long sword was holy

Holy brand is good in crypt, but it's not *that* good. It increases damage by 75%. A long sword has 9 base damage, you had +1 enchant so say 9.5 average damage. 9.5*1.75 is ~16.5 average damage. In your inventory you had a +9 long sword of flaming. Flaming increases damage by 25%. 13.5*1.25 is ~16.8 average damage, which is more.

Also... this sword had rElec!!!

It would have sped up my sword swinging if I got to 25

Skill levels become realllllly expensive at the higher end. Yes it's nice to reduce your attack delay, but there are better things to spend your SP on until much later in the game. For example armour and fighting (both should be higher or at least equal with shield, IMO).

I am in super heavy armor so this would be futile

Skill levels are also reallllly cheap at the low end. So when you are in crypt, you can get from 0->5 dodging in only half a floor of enemies. It would give you +2-3 EV, which is practically free.

I pressed } and abyss comes after Vault rune

I don't quite understand what Abyss and Vault have to do with Crypt. But the "traditional" order for a 3-rune game is:
hyperelliptic[1/2]: Lair -> D:12 -> Orc -> D:15 -> S:3 -> maybe other S:3 -> maybe Elf:1-2 -> get one S rune -> Vaults:4 -> get second S rune -> maybe Crypt -> Depths:5 -> get three runes -> Zot ("S" means Shoals/Snake/Spider/Swamp)

It's quite common to complete a 3-rune game without entering elf:3 or crypt:3.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 26th April 2019, 01:26

Re: #Lightning Bolt

HawkI wrote:
Siegurt wrote: You're fighting in the open and nearly surrounded by bad stuff, (Including one of the most dangerous critters in the game)


XD XD XD The Lich King is just some guy; He's not a level boss; He's just some regular dude. If he's so scary, how comes he's not a level boss XD XD XD

Ok, so yes, I could have been a lot more careful around 'regular person' but to tell you the truth I was just so aghast about losing to electricity again that I just kind of gave up.

I am going to take this opportunity to defend my walk through

- Using a terrible base weapon type. ----------------- Only my long sword was holy
- Overtrained shields ------------------ It would have sped up my sword swinging if I got to 25
- Undertrained Fighting ------------------ Shield priority; Auto, not me
- No Dodging training at all ------------------- I am in super heavy armor so this would be futile
- Crypt:3 before Depths ----------------------- I pressed } and abyss comes after Vault rune
- Equipment looks very basic. Probably missed many good items on the floor. --------------- To be fair you didn't know I hadn't fully explored Elven hall. They also had plenty bringing the thunder.

I hope I don't come across as stubborn or argumentative. I just wish electric resistance in ring form was easier to come by.

There are very few "bosses" in DCSS, they're actually relegated to a few places in extended, or maybe you might consider "uniques" also bosses, regardless, somethings "boss-ness" is not a good indicator of how dangerous it is. Now you know for the future, than ancient liches are one of the nastiest "non boss" things around (there are a few more dangerous, but not many.)

As another example Orbs of Fire are technically not "bosses" (they are not unique and don't have a level specifically for them or anything) but they are hella nasty.

Large shields are a giant XP sink, and usually not worth the additional investment above regular shields, I don't think they're as bad as the average person in this forum says they are, but there are a heck of a lot of other things that are more worthwhile at keeping you alive to invest in first.

Dodging isn't *useless* in heavy armour, it just takes more points to get past that hump, and to start getting returns, since the first few points in any skill are fairly cheap, at *some* point, dodging becomes more effective (It might take you to level 10 to get 1 point of EV, but going from 1->10 is cheaper than going from 22->23 armour skill, and it probably takes more than a single point of armour skill to get 1 more point of AC) Not to say you were there yet, but don't dismiss Dodging entirely because you are in heavy armour.

FWIW I don't think Entering Crypt before depths is particularly a bad call, I think they are about even in difficulty, but the } menu isn't really a strict ordering of difficulty, it's just a "this is the order these runes were put into the list" list, it does happen to be very roughly difficulty-ish in order, but even so, things like Orc, Lair, Elf, and Crypt aren't on the list, and the rune list doesn't even apply to them.

You may be overestimating holy a bit, it adds 75% more damage do demons and undead, and for comparison flaming adds 25% more damage to non fire resistant things (which is most undead) long swords are pretty low level in terms of base damage.

For the purposes of evaluating weapons, you should look at base damage, which gets a bonus from your skills, enchantment and slaying, which do not, and finally brand, which for some brands is a percentage bonus to the damage done (which is a pretty poor bonus if the base damage is bad) and some brands provide a bonus to damage directly, regardless of how much damage the weapon did (electricity is like that) in the case of the weapons you had in your inventory, the flaming long sword probably would do as much or more damage than the holy one, and a +0 scimitar is better than a long sword by a larger amount than the base damage would indicate (a rule of thumb, which is not wholly accurate is to multiply the base damage by 1.5 if your skills are in the teens and by 2 if your skills are in the 20s) If you look at (10*1.5+1)*1.75 = 28 (holy) and (10*1.5+9)*1.25 = 30 (fire) you can see even a rough approximation leads to the +9 flaming longsword being better than the +1 holy one even against undead, and scimitar (13*1.5+0) = 19.5 is worse but not too far off from the others (Scimitars are the best common one-handed longsword, it's a little unusual for a scimitar to be the best one-handed longblade so far, but not terribly so)

Also 9 times out of 10 you're better off using your enchant weapon/armour scrolls than you are holding on to them in the hope you'll find something better. Also TSO will bless your weapon with holy damage (and give it a +1 bonus), so you could've made that scimitar a +6 holy scimitar, which would've been a vast improvement over the +1 holy long sword. (13*1.5+6)*1.75 = 45
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Post Friday, 26th April 2019, 01:27

Re: #Lightning Bolt

HawkI wrote:- Using a terrible base weapon type. ----------------- Only my long sword was holy
- Overtrained shields ------------------ It would have sped up my sword swinging if I got to 25
- Undertrained Fighting ------------------ Shield priority; Auto, not me
- No Dodging training at all ------------------- I am in super heavy armor so this would be futile
- Crypt:3 before Depths ----------------------- I pressed } and abyss comes after Vault rune
- Equipment looks very basic. Probably missed many good items on the floor. --------------- To be fair you didn't know I hadn't fully explored Elven hall. They also had plenty bringing the thunder.


1. A non-holy double sword would have been better. Also you could bless a demon blade to turn it holy, very effective.
2. The speed up of attack for reaching the final shield target is very small, and not worth doing. 15 shields skill on a large shield is Just Fine.
3. Do you blame autoattack when you die? You are in control of your character!
4. Incorrect. Training dodging to 7 or so would be cheap and would give you a few points of EV,
5. In-game help unfortunately does not give the best order to do branches.
6. Elf is another one that would come before Crypt.

That said, with TSO, Crypt gets a lot easier and is totally doable with a level 23 character. But you need to actually use your TSO abilities.

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Post Friday, 26th April 2019, 04:36

Re: #Lightning Bolt

There is nothing shameful or wrong in dying but if you want to become better at this game you should somehow learn, either from guys who reliably win and give you advices or from your own analysis of what went wrong. Keep thinking "but the long sword had holy, why should I use sword with rElec vs electric monsters" or "why should I check abilities/spells of new 'extremely dangerous red' monsters if they are not a floor boss" if you want to win just once in a blue moon.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Friday, 26th April 2019, 10:46

Re: #Lightning Bolt

HawkI wrote:XD XD XD The Lich King is just some guy; He's not a level boss; He's just some regular dude. If he's so scary, how comes he's not a level boss XD XD XD

Ok, so yes, I could have been a lot more careful around 'regular person' but to tell you the truth I was just so aghast about losing to electricity again that I just kind of gave up.


Well, there is this level with a boss lich ;)

And yeah, getting fried by lightning is a really fun wake up call the first time Nikola drops you with >100 dmg in one turn.
There is always something new to learn.

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Post Friday, 26th April 2019, 12:21

Re: #Lightning Bolt

tso adds +2 when blessing a weapon

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 26th April 2019, 15:06

Re: #Lightning Bolt

svendre wrote:tso adds +2 when blessing a weapon

Yes, that's correct, sorry to be espousing incorrect information. I rarely end up using TSO before extended, and typically have a weapon to bless that doesn't need the enchantment bonus at that point, so it has actually been a very long time since I saw the full +2 :)
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Post Friday, 26th April 2019, 21:47

Re: #Lightning Bolt

HawkI wrote:Yes, I could have; used a scroll of fog, right clicked on him to learn what it had, or drank a potion of resistance, just in case. But I didn't because I was five hours in to the game (not in one session) and felt, just for a brief moment, I didn't have to neurotically check everything.


In my opinion, this is the real reason you lost that character. You've already gotten feedback (which is accurate) about your suboptimal build, and about tactical options that could have saved you. But in order to use those tactical options, you have to be paying attention. There are definitely "popcorn" fights where you don't have to check everything (and the stronger your build, the more fights become popcorn), but aside from those, you do actually have to check everything (position, inventory, abilities) in order to give yourself high odds of survival. That's just how crawl is.

Good players generally have a "sense" of when to snap into press-special-buttons-mode, based on what enemies and situations could potentially be fatal. Having an ancient lich in LOS should definitely tingle this sense, as should pretty much any monster that is fast or magical, or any time you're at 50% or less HP.

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Post Saturday, 27th April 2019, 22:05

Re: #Lightning Bolt

Siegurt wrote:
svendre wrote:tso adds +2 when blessing a weapon

Yes, that's correct, sorry to be espousing incorrect information. I rarely end up using TSO before extended, and typically have a weapon to bless that doesn't need the enchantment bonus at that point, so it has actually been a very long time since I saw the full +2 :)


A very minor point in contrast to all the valid, experienced advice I see you give all the time.

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Post Monday, 29th April 2019, 05:50

Re: #Lightning Bolt

svendre wrote:
Siegurt wrote:
svendre wrote:tso adds +2 when blessing a weapon

Yes, that's correct, sorry to be espousing incorrect information. I rarely end up using TSO before extended, and typically have a weapon to bless that doesn't need the enchantment bonus at that point, so it has actually been a very long time since I saw the full +2 :)


A very minor point in contrast to all the valid, experienced advice I see you give all the time.

Nevertheless I do prefer to own it when I do say things that are incorrect or inaccurate.
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Post Monday, 29th April 2019, 13:06

Re: #Lightning Bolt

ADDENDUM

Gosh, I've spent at least six hours, over three days, trying to exit an underground building in Dwarf Fortress adventure mode. The one I first spawned into. I have done much research but I am still stuck in there. So, now I'm waiting for my authentication email for DF forum I thought I would play DCSS again.

I just stated a new run today and found a rElectric ring. Lightning resistant jewelry is mostly found in time out bonus areas (I reckon) This makes sense to me because it means finding poison and acid resistance is more likely in the main areas. I just stopped going to time out bonus rooms lately, due to them being area of element and me not having both resistant and super effective against said element.

I have actually played DCSS for about 600 hours in total. Anyone looking over this thread could mistakenly think I am completely new to this. I would like to remind people that this game is in fact HARD. Just because you may be good at this doesn't mean to say it is easy.

EDIT: As for all these calculation, I only go off the numbers that are available to me in game. I play offline so to speak. So of course I am going to trust super effective every time.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 60

Joined: Saturday, 2nd September 2017, 16:41

Post Monday, 29th April 2019, 13:17

Re: #Lightning Bolt

stormdragon wrote:You've already gotten feedback (which is accurate) about your suboptimal build,... Good players generally have a "sense" .


XD XD XD I could have worn your skin Storm Dragon, but your Armour class is too low XD XD XD
Last edited by HawkI on Monday, 29th April 2019, 13:31, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4478

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Monday, 29th April 2019, 13:23

Re: #Lightning Bolt

HawkI wrote:Lightning resistant jewelry is mostly found in time out bonus areas (I reckon)

No, there's no such mechanism in the game. An artifact ring found in the regular dungeon is just as likely to have rElec.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

For this message the author Sprucery has received thanks:
HawkI

Blades Runner

Posts: 616

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Monday, 29th April 2019, 16:29

Re: #Lightning Bolt

If not having rElec really bothers you and you think it's that rare (no it's not), and there is nothing wrong with storm dragon armour also..... you could just play a Gargoyle. Slap on Gold Dragon armour and worship TSO and you don't need any other gear for your resists practically.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 809

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Monday, 29th April 2019, 16:56

Re: #Lightning Bolt

Also, on a couple of points being made...

The "boss-ness" of an enemy is directly related to the character you are playing at the time. I completed an MiBe recently. An ancient lich is very scary to that character, especially when met in the open - for the reasons you have noticed here. However, my DEFE character doesn't find them that scary. I just fire storm them from the edge of line of sight/around a corner and they die quickly. (not a good idea to do in largely unexplored areas because of high noise)

However, a single ghost moth and a spider can be deadly for my DEFE in 5 turns. But my MiBE I could wait probably 50 turns without caring. It's all about paying attention and knowing your enemies. Some enemies are Kryptonite to your character, others popcorn. It varies depending on what you are playing at the time.

re: dodging on a heavy armor character... I'll just leave this here.

  Code:
delarado the Conqueror (level 27, 273/273 HPs)
             Began as a Minotaur Berserker on Mar 20, 2019.
             Was a High Priest of Trog.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 3 runes on Apr 23, 2019!
             
             The game lasted 05:42:26 (65496 turns).

delarado the Conqueror (Minotaur Berserker)        Turns: 65496, Time: 05:42:27

Health: 273/273    AC: 49    Str: 26      XL:     27
Magic:  14/14      EV: 22    Int:  5 (7)  God:    Trog [*****.]
Gold:   6898       SH:  0    Dex: 18      Spells: 26/26 levels left

y - a +7 crystal plate armour (worn)

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Axes           |  4  5  6  7  8  9 11 13 16 17 18 19 22 23             24 25    26                | 26.0
Fighting       |                             7 10 11    13 15 16 18 20 21 22 23 25 26 27          | 27.0
Armour         |                             6  9 10    13 14 16 18 20 21 22 23 25 26 27          | 27.0
Dodging        |                                            6  9 10                12 16 20    24 | 24.0
Throwing       |                                               1  7                               |  7.0
Evocations     |                                                                          7 15 19 | 19.8



My dodging at XL17 (6 levels before you died) was 10.0 Note that it took me less than 1 XL to get dodging from 0 to 6. And less than 3 XL to get it from 0 to 10 - all the while training 3 other skills.
  Code:
Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Dodge: Dodged            |    55 |    43 |   174 |   242 |   479 |   397 ||  1390
       Deflected         |       |       |     4 |     3 |    73 |     7 ||    87



Thats 1390 attacks I dodged in a character using the heaviest armor in the game.

My dodging at game completion. Note that it took me 5 XL to get it from 10 to 24, whilst training only 1 other skill for major parts of it. Factor in the fact that it takes over 5 times as much XP to get from XL 17 to XL 27 as it does to get from XL1 to XL17 and you can see why people say low level skills are cheap!

  Code:
Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Dodge: Dodged            |    55 |    43 |   174 |   242 |   479 |   630 |   535 |   623 |  1235 ||  4016


Thats over 4000 attacks that did 0 damage to me. And look where the majority of dodges occured (1235) - After level 18, when I was wearing crystal plate and training dodging.

Blades Runner

Posts: 616

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Monday, 29th April 2019, 17:21

Re: #Lightning Bolt

I suspect the reason ancient liches seemed non-threatening was because a +9 antimagic broad axe was being used.

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Monday, 29th April 2019, 18:58

Re: #Lightning Bolt

An ancient lich can crystal spear you for 144 damage on a max roll. There are only a handful of characters that can take more than 2 of these at high-ish rolls, and only a handful of enemies in the game that can do actions that hurt more.

While not "unique", ancient liches, orbs of fire, greater mummies, tier 1 demons, and stuff like iron giants should all be treated similarly to bosses. All of these are capable of killing an XL 27 character with great gear and maxed HP without too much trouble. OOFs possibly least of this bunch if you have rF+++, but they can and will still kill you if taken lightly even then (or malmute you some bad stuff that gets you killed later instead). Most of the hell/pan lords don't have significantly more threatening attacks, just similar threat with more HP.

The "boss-ness" of an enemy is directly related to the character you are playing at the time. I completed an MiBe recently. An ancient lich is very scary to that character, especially when met in the open - for the reasons you have noticed here. However, my DEFE character doesn't find them that scary. I just fire storm them from the edge of line of sight/around a corner and they die quickly.


MiBe types should probably train throwing if not doing other ranged options. Not only can you net ancient liches, you can also often kill them with javelins or even tomahawks with high str + throwing before they get into range where they could start using crystal spears. Advantage to throwing in that you don't even have a swap time. Fighters that aren't following Trog can and should run some utility magic in extended.
Last edited by TheMeInTeam on Monday, 29th April 2019, 20:33, edited 1 time in total.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 388

Joined: Monday, 18th August 2014, 20:04

Post Monday, 29th April 2019, 19:34

Re: #Lightning Bolt

It's maybe also worth pointing out that all of the crypt:3 maps are literally designed with ancient liches as one of the potential "boss" enemy for the level (though not the only one). There's usually a place with extra special loot and some gimmick or enclosed area potentially that can involve aliches, often as one of the furthest places from the stairs.

For example, here's what "grunt_crypt_end_deaths_head" calls its boss monsters, where an alich or curse skull are placed potentially in the role that Khufu/Jory can have:

  Code:
# Boss tier monsters.
: if crawl.one_chance_in(4) then
KMONS:   R = Khufu, greater mummy
KMONS:   S = mummy priest
KMONS:   T = guardian mummy
: elseif crawl.one_chance_in(3) then
KMONS:   R = Jory, vampire knight
KMONS:   S = vampire knight / vampire mage
KMONS:   T = vampire knight / jiangshi
: elseif crawl.coinflip() then
KMONS:   R = ancient lich
KMONS:   S = flayed ghost
KMONS:   T = phantasmal warrior
: else
KMONS:   R = curse skull
KMONS:   S = ancient champion
KMONS:   T = skeletal warrior
: end


Personally I've always thought of ancient liches as one of the "boss species" of the game (together with things like oofs, greater mummies, maybe new killer klowns, etc). They're one of the very few things explicitly set up so that they'll be red threat level for any character.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 809

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Monday, 29th April 2019, 21:01

Re: #Lightning Bolt

svendre wrote:I suspect the reason ancient liches seemed non-threatening was because a +9 antimagic broad axe was being used.


I actually said that Liches seemed very threatening to the MiBe with +9 exec axe - but you are right, that axe was wicked helpful to that character when it came to liches, elves and draconians.

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