Where Do I Go? (New-ish Player)

[MisterPersonMan]

I'm a semi-new player, and one who has never actually gotten a rune in Crawl. Yup, not a single rune. (i'm pretty sure I suck at this game.)

The problem I run into is that I reach a certain point where I will just not have enough levels to progress much further. After clearing Lair and Orc, which I usually enter right after I have found them, I don't know the best course of action. I've tried going deeper into Dungeon to gain experience, but I almost always die in some way when I do so. I've tried tackling a rune branch like Shoals or Snake pit, but they prove to be a bit much for most of my characters.

Is there something I'm missing, or have I just been unlucky?

[Sorcerous]

I'm a semi-new player, and one who has never actually gotten a rune in Crawl. Yup, not a single rune. (i'm pretty sure I suck at this game.)

The problem I run into is that I reach a certain point where I will just not have enough levels to progress much further. After clearing Lair and Orc, which I usually enter right after I have found them, I don't know the best course of action. I've tried going deeper into Dungeon to gain experience, but I almost always die in some way when I do so. I've tried tackling a rune branch like Shoals or Snake pit, but they prove to be a bit much for most of my characters.

Is there something I'm missing, or have I just been unlucky?

Getting a "You die..." is something I've come to expect from Crawl, nothing to be ashamed of. Getting killed can be the product of all sorts of mistakes or just flat being unlucky. A completely new player (to Crawl, not roguelikes) actually made a few threads where all sorts of advice were given, branch by branch. @wizard44 took the win in only four games.
Link to winning thread: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=26088
Starting point: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26065

If you're willing, share your favourite build with the tavernfolk. Don't be embarrassed of anything, just ask about things and there's a solid chance you'll get that first rune, and first win very soon.

[delarado]

Also, Shoals and Snake pit are the harder rune branches.

As a rule of thumb you attack the easier rune branch first. Swamp is for example, considered easier than snake pit. Shoals is probably considered to be the hardest variable lair rune branch. (in that you may or may not get it) Slime is the hardest lair rune branch, but it appears in every game.

it also depends on character choice. Ghost moths in spider can wreck a caster, but are pretty trivial for a melee brute.

Going deeper before attempting a rune is a matter of preference. I generally complete lair and orc:1... Then go as deep as I can in Dungeon before doing orc:2. You kind of have to evaluate what threats you have and how strong your character is.

[acoolguy]

What specific monster do you have a hard time with? Shoals is always dangerous and should be attempted after other sub branches or even after vaults. As for snake, there are several threats that can be dealt with in the following manner. rPois helps if you have it.

Shock serpent - Use a wand of polymorph/paralysis on it. (It helps to have 5- 7 evocations)
Naga mages - Watch out for the teleport other spell. If it is cast on you read a tele scroll. Good MR helps as well. The also cast some conjurations at you which hurt if you don't have rPois so don't walk in to them.
Guardian serpents - These can blink enemies on you. Try to isolate and deal with them individually
Nagaragas - These are all around dangerous. Killing them at a distance as a caster, or using god abilities or consumables as a melee character helps.
Naga sharpshooters - These hit hard and come in packs. A shield if you have one and isolating them helps.
Anacondas - These are fast and hit hard. Casters should kill them at a distance and melee characters can generally take out one of them isolated.

Be wary of constriction. It can prevent stair dancing. As a general approach, when you encounter an enemy back a way to the stairs before engaging. This is especially useful in snake as it helps break apart packs as it consists of fast enemies (snakes) and slow ones (nagas).

[svendre]

After lair and orc, I would consider the following (in order of ease) - but with stipulations based on how my character was built:

Spiders (get rPois and hopefully SInv)
Swamp (you want rPois and some AC for hydras, flying or swimming is a bonus)
Elf (many would argue it's too hard, but it is a great power boost in terms of xp and gear if you learn it's ins and outs, it's doable early on with practice. I'd say becoming good at clearing elf fairly early on is a big thing in increasing your odds of winning the game)
Shoals (some rC+, some MR are helpful, low level fire magic or even a wand of flame are pretty helpful, use lesser beckoning and hold your positions. I used to hate shoals but I consider it fairly easy now)
Snake Pit (Surprisingly difficult even with a lot of experience, be careful in here or just avoid it until much later. Bring rPois, rElec... read teleport scrolls to cancel teleport status placed upon you by monsters so you don't get dropped into a big mess)
Vaults 1-4 (It's not too bad, just don't venture far from stairs if you feel shakey.. lure a lot. Biggest problem is getting marked and swarmed. Bring a little of everything)
Crypt 1-3 (This is easy with TSO, possibly deadly without)
Depths (This is where you've been dying... it can be profitable for loot, but it can also be dangerous for low-mid level characters and newer players, beware of packs of spriggans and other fast movers, you can TRY to snag stuff here, just abandon it if it gets too hard)

Stay the eff out of slimes! Slimes suck.

[Shtopit]

My advice is that of entering Lair after you reached lvl 11, and to do Orc after Lair. I then usually go down to the bottom of the Dungeon before doing the branches you can access in Lair (I mean the two which are not Slime, which is too dangerous). After these branches, you can do Elf (MR and see invisible here help a lot), and then Vaults.

Keep in mind that you can always leave the bottom levels for later. They are far more dangerous than the other levels. The bottom of Vaults in particular should probably be postponed as much as possible; I think I normally do it as last thing before entering Zot. Before you do the bottom of Vaults, you can also do Crypt, depending on which resistances you have. It isn't much more difficult than other Vaults levels.

[MisterPersonMan]

I'm a semi-new player, and one who has never actually gotten a rune in Crawl. Yup, not a single rune. (i'm pretty sure I suck at this game.)

The problem I run into is that I reach a certain point where I will just not have enough levels to progress much further. After clearing Lair and Orc, which I usually enter right after I have found them, I don't know the best course of action. I've tried going deeper into Dungeon to gain experience, but I almost always die in some way when I do so. I've tried tackling a rune branch like Shoals or Snake pit, but they prove to be a bit much for most of my characters.

Is there something I'm missing, or have I just been unlucky?

Getting a "You die..." is something I've come to expect from Crawl, nothing to be ashamed of. Getting killed can be the product of all sorts of mistakes or just flat being unlucky. A completely new player (to Crawl, not roguelikes) actually made a few threads where all sorts of advice were given, branch by branch. @wizard44 took the win in only four games.
Link to winning thread: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=26088
Starting point: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26065

If you're willing, share your favourite build with the tavernfolk. Don't be embarrassed of anything, just ask about things and there's a solid chance you'll get that first rune, and first win very soon.

My most commonly used build, and the one I've gotten the farthest with, is a Minotaur Berserker. I almost always use axes with my fighter characters.

I've also gotten pretty far with a Hill Orc Monk of Beogh, although my luck with this is far more variable.

[TheMeInTeam]

Opinions on this vary somewhat. This is my typical order for 3 rune:

D 1-10
L 1-6
O 1-2 or D 11-12, then the other
D 13-15
S branches*
E 1-3
V 1-4
U 1-5
3rd rune (Slime, Vaults:5, Abyss in order of frequency)
Zot 1-5

* In contrast to many other players, I consider the S branches roughly equal in difficulty, with some being harder or easier depending on gear available. With MR and a means of crowd control Shoals isn't bad for example, and mephitic cloud dumps on most of the enemies there. Both shoals and snake really benefit from having a way to deal with enemy ranged attacks. You probably want something to hex/handle anacondas and shock serpents quickly, nagas are slow and LoS manipulation is very important against guardian serpents. In spider SInv, rCorr and rPois are useful, otherwise entropy weavers and especially ghost moths can screw you. In swamp being able to freely move over deep water is very beneficial because that blocks mangroves from rooting you and lets you have clear paths to upstairs.

[Sorcerous]

My most commonly used build, and the one I've gotten the farthest with, is a Minotaur Berserker. I almost always use axes with my fighter characters.

I've also gotten pretty far with a Hill Orc Monk of Beogh, although my luck with this is far more variable.

Taking on a classic like MiBe is fine. There is little to say about skills that you don't know already: manual choices, the basic four (* on weapon until breakpoint), plus throwing and/or evocations for a bit of versatility.

Hand of Trog is all the MR you'll most likely need in a given game, so that is probably not the issue. Have your losses so far been the result of taking on too many enemies at once, elemental attacks, dying from the berserk crash (slow/paralysis), traps? Or because you didn't have more combat options like immolate/wands/ammo/lamp? You can provide everything from broad concepts to specific battle scenarios, the more info we can work with, the better.

While on topic, which specific enemies gave you the most trouble across your playthroughs so far? Plenty of insight to be gained from those, too.

[MisterPersonMan]

Hand of Trog is all the MR you'll most likely need in a given game, so that is probably not the issue. Have your losses so far been the result of taking on too many enemies at once, elemental attacks, dying from the berserk crash (slow/paralysis), traps? Or because you didn't have more combat options like immolate/wands/ammo/lamp? You can provide everything from broad concepts to specific battle scenarios, the more info we can work with, the better.

While on topic, which specific enemies gave you the most trouble across your playthroughs so far? Plenty of insight to be gained from those, too.

Mostly, all of my deaths have been from either taking on too many enemies, taking on enemies that are too powerful, or going into branches unprepared. A good amount of my deaths are due to recklessness, but as stated before, a lot of the time I just end up in areas that my character can't deal with. Berserk ending at bad times has definitely led to some deaths as well.

I would tell you what monsters have given me the most trouble, but I can't think of any specific ones. I remember having a lot of trouble in Snake Pits, as I recall, but it's been previously stated that I probably shouldn't have been there.

[petercordia]

A technique which may help you not take on too many monsters at once is this:
When you enter a new level, take all 3 different downstairs. Then connect the downstairs via manual exploration. Then use auto-explore.

[MisterPersonMan]

A technique which may help you not take on too many monsters at once is this:
When you enter a new level, take all 3 different downstairs. Then connect the downstairs via manual exploration. Then use auto-explore.

I'll keep this in mind.

[Sorcerous]

Mostly, all of my deaths have been from either taking on too many enemies, taking on enemies that are too powerful, or going into branches unprepared. A good amount of my deaths are due to recklessness, but as stated before, a lot of the time I just end up in areas that my character can't deal with. Berserk ending at bad times has definitely led to some deaths as well.

I would tell you what monsters have given me the most trouble, but I can't think of any specific ones. I remember having a lot of trouble in Snake Pits, as I recall, but it's been previously stated that I probably shouldn't have been there.

These are already good points to start from:
1) taking on too many enemies, taking on enemies that are too powerful
For the most part, this is a matter of not having a feel for "how much is too much". Many of my berserker splats were against enemies I'd seen for the first or second time and not examining. This being said, because berserker builds are so streamlined, you might also be biased towards one combat solution over others. Sometimes you should bring wands and scrolls to a brawl instead of tab. Other times, summon brothers and join in the slaughter.
2) Berserk ending at bad times has definitely led to some deaths as well
This one ties in well with the problem above. Trog extends berserk (piety-based chance), so knowing when to tear into the lesser monsters to get more turns into berserk is also a good thing to learn and use. Starting berserk too early (or at all) can also be a factor: again, as you get a better feel for enemies, this will also change. A lot of fights can be won without relying on berserk.
3) or going into branches unprepared
Branches are quite the broad term, so this could stem from all sorts of things: most commonly, it is a problem of resistances or overextending when you really shouldn't (as above). Both problems can kill a variety of builds, and you'll want to treat them as universal. No matter your char, sometimes the RNG will screw you over with no useful loot. Keeping in mind that axes cross-train maces and polearms can help, a solid randart may be worth switching to in a specific fight or branch.

Hope this helps for now. And keep posting, of course

[Siegurt]

A technique which may help you not take on too many monsters at once is this:
When you enter a new level, take all 3 different downstairs. Then connect the downstairs via manual exploration. Then use auto-explore.

Note that in some (possibly rare) situations this is suboptimal. The first time you enter a level, you get the first turn, letting you respond to whatever creatures you see immediately. On subsequent times entering a level, you don't have that advantage. If you enter a level and are safe, leaving it and entering it again from another staircase has the potential to put you in a very dangerous situation before you have the possibility of responding.

A slightly more robust solution to 'not taking too many creatures on at once' is to explore very conservatively around your initial entrance (assuming it's not dangerous when you get there) and lead anything you see closer to your cleared out area around the starting point before attempting to fight them. If you want to be extra paranoid about this, you should expose as few tiles at once on every step, and always expose the tiles which you can expose while having the shortest distance to a safe up stair case. I don't recommend being too paranoid in this fashion, as it's a whole lot of effort for very very minimal gains, but fighting things one at a time, closer to already-cleared-out areas is a very powerful technique.

In practice this usually looks like trying to 'spiral' from your starting point (generally speaking) and if you come across something, get it's attention (stand there, throw a stone at it, whatever), and retreat 2-3 LOS towards your explored upstairs before trying to kill it, (if it's close to your staircase, you might just retreat up the stairs to kill it, if it's the type that you'd kill in melee range)

Also, each time you go down an unexplored staircase, you reveal an entire LOS's worth of tiles, each one of which could contain something dangerous, doing so as few times as possible reduces your risk by some small margin. It *might* be worth the risk to explore a new staircase, if the path back to a safe upstairs gets sufficiently long that it's unlikely you could escape from even a single dangerous creature should it become required, and starting at a new staircase would give you an advantage in shortened escape path greater than the reduction in risk from having a known-cleared area in which to fight, and the reduction in risk associated with revealing fewer tiles at a time (and thereby being able to usually fight fewer things at a time)

Also, I do agree that since auto-explore is highly suboptimal in terms of avoiding risk, if you're going to use it, don't do so until you have a majority of the level cleared (or are sufficiently confident that you don't care about suboptimal exploration)

[MisterPersonMan]

These are already good points to start from:
1) taking on too many enemies, taking on enemies that are too powerful
For the most part, this is a matter of not having a feel for "how much is too much". Many of my berserker splats were against enemies I'd seen for the first or second time and not examining. This being said, because berserker builds are so streamlined, you might also be biased towards one combat solution over others. Sometimes you should bring wands and scrolls to a brawl instead of tab. Other times, summon brothers and join in the slaughter.
2) Berserk ending at bad times has definitely led to some deaths as well
This one ties in well with the problem above. Trog extends berserk (piety-based chance), so knowing when to tear into the lesser monsters to get more turns into berserk is also a good thing to learn and use. Starting berserk too early (or at all) can also be a factor: again, as you get a better feel for enemies, this will also change. A lot of fights can be won without relying on berserk.
3) or going into branches unprepared
Branches are quite the broad term, so this could stem from all sorts of things: most commonly, it is a problem of resistances or overextending when you really shouldn't (as above). Both problems can kill a variety of builds, and you'll want to treat them as universal. No matter your char, sometimes the RNG will screw you over with no useful loot. Keeping in mind that axes cross-train maces and polearms can help, a solid randart may be worth switching to in a specific fight or branch.

Hope this helps for now. And keep posting, of course

This makes sense. Really, I should be examining every situation before I come up with a solution instead of using the old 'KILL EVERYTHING'. I always feel like I have to be getting as much XP as possible, and I like to completely clear floors immediately. Having a secondary situational weapon also would be good. I usually only have one weapon, and maybe some throwing weapons.

Thank you for your assistance, by the way. This goes for everyone. Didn't expect this many replies from this many people.

[MisterPersonMan]

Note that in some (possibly rare) situations this is suboptimal. The first time you enter a level, you get the first turn, letting you respond to whatever creatures you see immediately. On subsequent times entering a level, you don't have that advantage. If you enter a level and are safe, leaving it and entering it again from another staircase has the potential to put you in a very dangerous situation before you have the possibility of responding.

A slightly more robust solution to 'not taking too many creatures on at once' is to explore very conservatively around your initial entrance (assuming it's not dangerous when you get there) and lead anything you see closer to your cleared out area around the starting point before attempting to fight them. If you want to be extra paranoid about this, you should expose as few tiles at once on every step, and always expose the tiles which you can expose while having the shortest distance to a safe up stair case. I don't recommend being too paranoid in this fashion, as it's a whole lot of effort for very very minimal gains, but fighting things one at a time, closer to already-cleared-out areas is a very powerful technique.

In practice this usually looks like trying to 'spiral' from your starting point (generally speaking) and if you come across something, get it's attention (stand there, throw a stone at it, whatever), and retreat 2-3 LOS towards your explored upstairs before trying to kill it, (if it's close to your staircase, you might just retreat up the stairs to kill it, if it's the type that you'd kill in melee range)

Also, each time you go down an unexplored staircase, you reveal an entire LOS's worth of tiles, each one of which could contain something dangerous, doing so as few times as possible reduces your risk by some small margin. It *might* be worth the risk to explore a new staircase, if the path back to a safe upstairs gets sufficiently long that it's unlikely you could escape from even a single dangerous creature should it become required, and starting at a new staircase would give you an advantage in shortened escape path greater than the reduction in risk from having a known-cleared area in which to fight, and the reduction in risk associated with revealing fewer tiles at a time (and thereby being able to usually fight fewer things at a time)

Also, I do agree that since auto-explore is highly suboptimal in terms of avoiding risk, if you're going to use it, don't do so until you have a majority of the level cleared (or are sufficiently confident that you don't care about suboptimal exploration)

I've always kind of assumed the auto-explore is safe, because it'll stop as soon as I encounter something, so this information is useful. I've got a lot to learn. Strategies for exploring cautiously will definitely help.

[svendre]

Some good advice above, Siegurt nailed a lot. I'll just add that when playing a melee character, if you use a launcher (hand xbow, sling, or whatever) even if it isn't trained, or trained very much as a secondary weapon in your arsenal, and use it each and every time you spot an enemy at range who doesn't have a ranged attack - until they are in melee range (or even further back to corner or some highly tactically advantageous point) it will do a little extra damage before the fights begin at melee, but more importantly it will train you to pull things back and stop the charge-in-too-often problem. It'll also help reduce the number of enemies you fight at once. It is the all powerful "lure", but regimented by habit and with bonus damage. Time your swap to just as they are stepping into melee range so you get the first swing.

When you get familiar with this style of play, it almost makes hunter (especially gnolls) the most powerful start for any kind of build you want to make it into over time, be it melee or spell caster.

I recommend using a macro to redefine the swap between item a and item b key from ' to something else (I use / on the numpad), and then assign your launcher to a or b, and your primary melee weapon to a or b using the = command. If you move with the numpad, then it takes a lot of the tedium out of weapon switching and becomes an easy reflex.

When you encounter ranged targets with a ranged attack stronger than yours, the solution is either to charge in and close the gap, or back off and hide around a corner or door and force them to close the gap.

[Siegurt]

I recommend using a macro to redefine the swap between item a and item b key from ' to something else (I use / on the numpad), and then assign your launcher to a or b, and your primary melee weapon to a or b using the = command. If you move with the numpad, then it takes a lot of the tedium out of weapon switching and becomes an easy reflex.p.

Note that ' is super convenient if you learn/use yubnhjkl movment keys (I macro tab to ; too

[MisterPersonMan]

I recommend using a macro to redefine the swap between item a and item b key from ' to something else (I use / on the numpad), and then assign your launcher to a or b, and your primary melee weapon to a or b using the = command. If you move with the numpad, then it takes a lot of the tedium out of weapon switching and becomes an easy reflex.p.

Note that ' is super convenient if you learn/use yubnhjkl movment keys (I macro tab to ; too

I already have ; : ' and " for spells, because selecting one from a list every time I want to cast a different one is irritating. (I could change it because I'll be using Trog a lot, but I'm already used to it and I'd hate to change it every time I want to use a spellcaster.) Macros are something I never really considered using on a melee fighter, but they could be pretty useful. Will keep in mind.

[Siegurt]

I recommend using a macro to redefine the swap between item a and item b key from ' to something else (I use / on the numpad), and then assign your launcher to a or b, and your primary melee weapon to a or b using the = command. If you move with the numpad, then it takes a lot of the tedium out of weapon switching and becomes an easy reflex.p.

Note that ' is super convenient if you learn/use yubnhjkl movment keys (I macro tab to ; too

I already have ; : ' and " for spells, because selecting one from a list every time I want to cast a different one is irritating. (I could change it because I'll be using Trog a lot, but I'm already used to it and I'd hate to change it every time I want to use a spellcaster.) Macros are something I never really considered using on a melee fighter, but they could be pretty useful. Will keep in mind.

the default for ' is 'wield the weapon in slot a, or wield the weapon in slot b if I'm wielding the one in slot a already' which is pretty helpful for everyone (once you get in the habit of putting your primary/secondary weapons in a and b) 'w' is also a useful letter for tertiary weapons (for obvious reasons)

I'd also look into the automagic settings in the ini file for casting.