CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.


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Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 11:47

CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

Http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Gozrad/Gozrad.txt

So I'm not sure if this character is strong enough for extended. I've never won before but I'd like to try for 15. Any advice?

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 12:52

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

It's doable though you might find it somewhat difficult with this setup. At a quick glance a few things:

* get a source of rElec, maybe rPois although it's less important
* you can drop the rCorr ring
* train armour higher since you're in crystal plate and your AC could use a bump
* use enchant armour scrolls on your auxilary slots to pickup a few AC
* increase your melee skill higher than 12 for extra damage (I don't enjoy using bows for every fight)

I saw you were using some translocation spells for utility, which is a very good thing. You may have to stick to lower level spells in that armour (and it's worth it), but as you amass bigger piles of XP and get better gear from extended you might branch into spellcasting further. If you do, I would prioritize the following spells:

* ignition
* tornado

TSO is very strong with extended. Don't be afraid to spend piety to summon angels fairly often. They make great malmutate blockers and help kill bosses or can be used for escaping. The key with TSO to practice is to not always kill everything around you, but to instead focus on the worst threats (torment, hellfire, pan lords) and save the other little guys like healing potions accessed with holy blasts from invocations. You can also simply not kill some enemies until *after* you've received damage.

I see you have 12 in polearms. I highly advise using an axe despite the existing training. You get swarmed too often. Don't use tab, instead apply the majority of damage to the worst threats and let the lesser threats get consumed like healing potions more slowly around you as you swing the axe in a similar manner to the holy blasts.

Finally, pack an antimagic weapon along for certain boss fights. It's worth using even if you are casting a lot of spells. Unload your mana, then swap weapons. It'll stop them from doing all sorts of nasty things.

Best of luck to you if you go for it!

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 12:54

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

I've done Dis on a centaur which was less strong than this one. That one did not have teleportitis though, and I used more blink scrolls than I found in Dis, which was part of the reason I decided to win with <15 runes.
Do you have any -Tele items? I'd wear one if I could, with that character. Otherwise you run the risk of near-instant-death.

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 13:02

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

The build looks pretty ready for Pandemonium, especially with PProj and the bow. @svendre already gave great advice in terms of skilling.
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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 14:44

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

Getting ignition + tornado going on that int in OCP + Ce aptitudes isn't going to happen without scumming, maybe ignition by tomb or so. In contrast passage of golubria is nearly castable already and should be memorized as a poor man's cblink. Swiftness is worth picking up. I'd actually recommend eventually pushing for controlled blink, should be pretty obnoxiously effective on a character using a 27 skill holy longbow and pproj as needed.

Even stuff like confuse which can be nice vs hellions/tormentors isn't really needed; those types of enemies can be sniped with the bow in roughly a similar timeframe.

Angels, cblink, and pproj should take care of most uniques. With more armor/defenses to shore up AC/EV and gradually better loot extended should be fine.

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 18:16

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

TheMeInTeam wrote:Getting ignition + tornado going on that int in OCP + Ce aptitudes isn't going to happen without scumming, maybe ignition by tomb or so. In contrast passage of golubria is nearly castable already and should be memorized as a poor man's cblink. Swiftness is worth picking up. I'd actually recommend eventually pushing for controlled blink, should be pretty obnoxiously effective on a character using a 27 skill holy longbow and pproj as needed.

Even stuff like confuse which can be nice vs hellions/tormentors isn't really needed; those types of enemies can be sniped with the bow in roughly a similar timeframe.

Angels, cblink, and pproj should take care of most uniques. With more armor/defenses to shore up AC/EV and gradually better loot extended should be fine.


With 14 int, yes, poor chances of getting ignition online. But, his gear is pretty basic. After doing extended awhile, I'd expect him to find much better stuff, and a good chance a ring with wizardry and int or both, or int on other pieces of armour. The thing with ignition is that you don't need it all that often, so if you're careful you can usually end up casting it just when you need it a few strategic times by quaffing brilliance. I usually hang on to a staff of wizardry as well just for casting spells that are slightly out of grasp. When you do need it, though boy it does a good job. I don't usually run out of blink scrolls to need to prioritize controlled blink. I agree that stuff like confuse just isn't worth the spell slots anymore. Portal projectile is a super spell. I love it for killing malmutate guys as well as bosses while your angels are blocking.

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 19:45

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

Thanks for the tips. I was considering taking a brief foray into a zig, maybe try for 5 to 10 levels to get more xp/items. I've never done a zig before. Would this be suicidal?

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 20:23

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

I've recently done my 1st zig. I remember the 1st couple of levels were pretty easy. Eventually you get huge mobs of mosters, and you need AoE damage and/or good hp regeneration to survive.

The first few levels are certainly fine. I would be inclined to switch to Zin for the zig, both to have a good escape option and to more efficiently remove mutations, but beware I've never actually done a Zig with zin ;)

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 20:49

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

petercordia wrote:I've recently done my 1st zig. I remember the 1st couple of levels were pretty easy. Eventually you get huge mobs of mosters, and you need AoE damage and/or good hp regeneration to survive.

The first few levels are certainly fine. I would be inclined to switch to Zin for the zig, both to have a good escape option and to more efficiently remove mutations, but beware I've never actually done a Zig with zin ;)


Hmm yeah, thinking going that route to clear my mutations. The random teleport has lead to some dicey situations already.

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 22:32

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

Did zig til 10, almost died a couple of times. Didn't find any good gear but I did clear most of my worst mutations with zin, still stuck with neg 20% hp though. Killed dispater and got the iron rune. It felt like a huge struggle and I am debating whether to grab the orb and call it a day.

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 22:40

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

Actually I do have a maxxed out wyrmbane now, worth it training shields up and using this as my primary?

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Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 22:52

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

Hmm, maybe run around abyss for awhile in the hopes of finding a mutation potion?

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Post Saturday, 23rd March 2019, 04:55

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

You don't really want Zin for Zig clearing. Ideal is Makhleb so you can sublimate for mana on non-tormenting levels in-between AOE nukes. For levels with torment, it's a different story, you want necromutate and a staff of energy to channel mana between spells or as you get a breather. Zigs can be relatively easy all the way to level 27 if you don't get any difficult monsters, or they can be a royal pain in the butt. You just never know. I've done a lot of Zigs, and the worst levels are probably the ones with lots of Pan lords, followed by orbs of fire, greater mummies, and maybe angels thanks to smite. Melee doesn't play much of a role except in cases where you are silenced, out of mana, dealng with a highly resistant monster, or just mopping up.

Every time I've ever done zigs, mutations became a non-issue because you find so many mutation potions in them. The new potions will tend to remove bad mutations and replace them with good mutations statistically, so if you have enough potions you'll do better than remove all mutations with Zin.

That you are stuck with -20% HP is fairly bad. If you are with Zin, I think you can pretty safely scum the abyss to look for potions. If you want to do that, it's up to you. You don't have an extended win on your belt, so I'd suggest you not worry about playing politically correctly and do the scumming and anything/everything else you can to just get the win. You'll hone your skills up a bit more also. Keep those teleport scrolls close and fire them off if it looks like it might get nasty.

Back to runes now, so you've got one from hell. I hope not with Zin, because that would have been pretty rough. If you hadn't already, you should have switched back to TSO for hells/pan and tomb. If you have a decent pile of blinking scrolls and a well charged wand of digging, I might suggest you try pan before any more hell levels. I usually do hells before pan, but not really because I think it's safer, but more because I'm a little overly zealous when it comes to hording loot and you never know if you'll be stuck in pan for all four bosses (or how long at all).

You should be leaning on the portal projectile, and summoning angels. Kill tormenters fiends and hellions first, always. I don't think hell/pan should be all that rough. Tomb3 is tough, especially if you don't have experience with it. If you get to doing that, you may want to seek additional help beforehand.

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Post Saturday, 23rd March 2019, 05:43

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

svendre wrote:You don't really want Zin for Zig clearing. Ideal is Makhleb so you can sublimate for mana on non-tormenting levels in-between AOE nukes. For levels with torment, it's a different story, you want necromutate and a staff of energy to channel mana between spells or as you get a breather. Zigs can be relatively easy all the way to level 27 if you don't get any difficult monsters, or they can be a royal pain in the butt. You just never know. I've done a lot of Zigs, and the worst levels are probably the ones with lots of Pan lords, followed by orbs of fire, greater mummies, and maybe angels thanks to smite. Melee doesn't play much of a role except in cases where you are silenced, out of mana, dealng with a highly resistant monster, or just mopping up.

Every time I've ever done zigs, mutations became a non-issue because you find so many mutation potions in them. The new potions will tend to remove bad mutations and replace them with good mutations statistically, so if you have enough potions you'll do better than remove all mutations with Zin.

That you are stuck with -20% HP is fairly bad. If you are with Zin, I think you can pretty safely scum the abyss to look for potions. If you want to do that, it's up to you. You don't have an extended win on your belt, so I'd suggest you not worry about playing politically correctly and do the scumming and anything/everything else you can to just get the win. You'll hone your skills up a bit more also. Keep those teleport scrolls close and fire them off if it looks like it might get nasty.

Back to runes now, so you've got one from hell. I hope not with Zin, because that would have been pretty rough. If you hadn't already, you should have switched back to TSO for hells/pan and tomb. If you have a decent pile of blinking scrolls and a well charged wand of digging, I might suggest you try pan before any more hell levels. I usually do hells before pan, but not really because I think it's safer, but more because I'm a little overly zealous when it comes to hording loot and you never know if you'll be stuck in pan for all four bosses (or how long at all).

You should be leaning on the portal projectile, and summoning angels. Kill tormenters fiends and hellions first, always. I don't think hell/pan should be all that rough. Tomb3 is tough, especially if you don't have experience with it. If you get to doing that, you may want to seek additional help beforehand.


Yeah still with Zin because I read he was good for doing hell. I'll switch back to TSO and head into the abyss for a bit. Thanks for the advice.

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Post Saturday, 23rd March 2019, 06:11

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

Lol.. no no, you want Zin for the abyss, TSO for hells/pan/tomb.

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Post Monday, 25th March 2019, 17:31

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

Zin's Recite and your 25.4 Invocations should wipe the screen when it gets crowded. It does take 3 turns to fully trigger, so use early. Sanctuary makes you death-proof. (You have to remember to use it, but, hilariously, there is a *separate* small chance that Zin will cancel a killing blow. The later is true of the other good gods too.) Vitalization is a solid buff and blocks some debuffs. Zin is the one true extended god.

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Post Monday, 25th March 2019, 17:43

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

svendre wrote:Lol.. no no, you want Zin for the abyss, TSO for hells/pan/tomb.


To each their own, then? My first 15-runer felt like a casual stroll under Zin.
Turned Panlords to salt left and right, mystical force got the "lol no" treatment, and it was hilarious to imagine a zealous preacher riding around on a personal tornado and lecturing the wicked on laws and purity :D
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Post Monday, 25th March 2019, 20:54

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

Sorcerous wrote:
svendre wrote:Lol.. no no, you want Zin for the abyss, TSO for hells/pan/tomb.


To each their own, then? My first 15-runer felt like a casual stroll under Zin.
Turned Panlords to salt left and right, mystical force got the "lol no" treatment, and it was hilarious to imagine a zealous preacher riding around on a personal tornado and lecturing the wicked on laws and purity :D


For sure. I like Zin a heck of a lot too. The reasons I prefer TSO for hells/pan/tomb is primarily the constant health depleting effects such as torment hellfire and smite. Zin has no way to block those effects retroactively, so without very strong regeneration (and you can't use the regen spell), you can get drained and backed into a dangerous situation. The best you can do is proactively avoid receiving damage. I play the game like, there is no way to escape, no way to prevent getting hurt, and then it's a bonus if I can escape or manage to avoid getting hurt. With TSO, you're constantly replenishing your health (and mana!), so you're essentially staying further from a dangerous state over time. Sanctuary and Zin can save your life, but not always from a damage spike. If you do save yourself with Sanctuary, you're still in a situation where you're surrounded and you have to use consumables to get your health back and/or escape, so they can run out more quickly. Sanctuary is also pretty hefty in terms of piety to use a lot. As for recite, I don't use it much because (unless I am corrected) I don't believe pillars of salt give XP. Each time you enter a level in Pan is possibly the most dangerous moment until the scene stabilizes. That means that if you are in a situation where XP is still helpful to increasing your odds of survival, you're better off getting more XP in pan than not before entering the next level, and pan is a large portion of extended.

Anyhow, I'm not saying you're wrong at all. I'm just clarifying the reasons for my preferences for the consideration of anyone interested.
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Post Monday, 25th March 2019, 22:10

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

svendre wrote:For sure. I like Zin a heck of a lot too. The reasons I prefer TSO for hells/pan/tomb is primarily the constant health depleting effects such as torment hellfire and smite. Zin has no way to block those effects retroactively, so without very strong regeneration (and you can't use the regen spell), you can get drained and backed into a dangerous situation. The best you can do is proactively avoid receiving damage. I play the game like, there is no way to escape, no way to prevent getting hurt, and then it's a bonus if I can escape or manage to avoid getting hurt. With TSO, you're constantly replenishing your health (and mana!), so you're essentially staying further from a dangerous state over time. Sanctuary and Zin can save your life, but not always from a damage spike. If you do save yourself with Sanctuary, you're still in a situation where you're surrounded and you have to use consumables to get your health back and/or escape, so they can run out more quickly. Sanctuary is also pretty hefty in terms of piety to use a lot. As for recite, I don't use it much because (unless I am corrected) I don't believe pillars of salt give XP. Each time you enter a level in Pan is possibly the most dangerous moment until the scene stabilizes. That means that if you are in a situation where XP is still helpful to increasing your odds of survival, you're better off getting more XP in pan than not before entering the next level, and pan is a large portion of extended.


Very good arguments for both, but I'd add in that Sanctuary can recover some piety if you use it when surrounded in evil areas because it blasts out holy word when used. Didn't even know about that little gem, and got so confused when Mara just dropped dead. Amusingly enough, Zin didn't consider this kill a breach of peace.
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Post Monday, 25th March 2019, 23:25

Re: CeHu of TSO not sure how to proceed.

Heretics!!!

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