Factors in 3rd rune choice


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 136

Joined: Thursday, 7th February 2019, 14:02

Location: Australia

Post Tuesday, 19th March 2019, 23:57

Factors in 3rd rune choice

What factors do people use in deciding which rune to go for as the third rune?

I normally go for Silver, but I've only had tanky melee brutes get as far as 3rd rune so far. I have a feeling that Vaults:5 might be a lot deadlier for less tanky characters.
Obviously you'd want rCorr for Slimy, but what else?
As for Abyssal, I have no idea how you'd survive long enough in there to get it.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 00:20

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

I usually do 4 or 5 runes actually.
Abyss is easy with stealthy, ranged, and fast characters. I've done it once with a noisy melee brute, but that was noticeably harder and may only have worked because he was of a high level (XL 27).
In slime you need rCor and a strategy for dealing the TRJ, but most characters have a viable strategy. Some examples of strategies which work: Evocations + scroll of vulnerability + hex wand, scroll of vulnerability + hexes/petrify, torment+ignition, Qazlal's Disaster Area.
In Vault:5 you need to engage in a significant number of risky fights, and I think it's slightly easier if you have a way of dealing with the entrance party, or if you can quietly and stealthily take out enemies (in which case you need to make sure not to enter near the entrance).

Halls Hopper

Posts: 81

Joined: Monday, 18th March 2019, 22:11

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 00:22

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

I'd use the following criteria.

Slime: You need rCorr, good MR (golden eyeballs have smite target confuse I think), and LOS blockers (for malmutate) if possible. RC is also very useful. Ultimately you need a way to kill the TRJ and get out from the mass of jellies he creates. Ways include fighting it out in the open using conjurations, evokables, immolation, vulnerability+polymorph. Or being buffed up and killing it in the corridor. If going the melee route, lure all slimes you encounter up the stairs before engaging TRJ. You do not want to make noise and lure TRJ out of the corridor. Traditionally the best characters for slimer are conj. mages.

Vaults: Vaults 5 is best done by either teleporting around until you can reach an edge or by blinking to an edge and slowly clearing out one quarter of the map from the corner at a time. The main concerns are you need to be able to live long enough for you to be able to heal and stabilize and you need to be able to manage noise appropriately so you have the ability to do this. Certain melee bruiser, qalzal users, etc have the ability to stairdance V5 but it is pretty dangerous. If you do vaults 5, be aware of vault sentinels that can mark you. LOS blocking, high MR, and cancellation potions are vital here as it is extremely difficult to survive V5 when marked.

Abyss: This is best done by stealthy characters. The main things that are useful is having a high supply of teleport scrolls, and spells like blink, regen and flight. Characters that kill with MP can have a rough time here as they won't have time to regen it.

This is a pretty decent guide on the 3rd rune choice: http://www.ultraviolent4.com/guide.html#3rd_Rune

For this message the author acoolguy has received thanks:
MrDizzy

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 689

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 00:23

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

I do vaults:5 third probably 90% of the time. Imo it is not harder than slime for the vast majority of characters, and the rewards are better.

I will sometimes do slime third if I have something like ignition or firestorm because it's faster, but it's easy to do either one if you can cast those. I also do slime third for tournament points sometimes. I do slime first if I have Jiyva, in which case second and third rune are the other sbranches.

I will consider abyss if I was banished to abyss rune depth before getting a third rune and happened to run into a rune vault I could do safely, or for certain types of challenge conducts. Imo it's usually less safe than V:5 or slime and much less rewarding (not to mention annoying). If my character is fast, has stealth, and is bad at killing things, then I might do abyss, but I won't defend this as optimal play.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4478

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 07:16

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

I'll quote myself from another thread:
My criteria for Vaults vs Abyss vs Slime is:
Vaults: always, because it is the single most fun level in the whole game.

Objectively thinking, Slime would probably be better for most characters who have rCorr. If you can handle V:5, you should be able to handle Slime.
I could consider Abyss for characters who are very stealthy and/or are with Ash, and are for some reason scared of V:5 and Slime.

But I always go for the silver rune.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi
User avatar

Slime Squisher

Posts: 405

Joined: Sunday, 27th January 2019, 13:50

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 13:51

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

MrDizzy wrote:What factors do people use in deciding which rune to go for as the third rune?

I normally go for Silver, but I've only had tanky melee brutes get as far as 3rd rune so far. I have a feeling that Vaults:5 might be a lot deadlier for less tanky characters.
Obviously you'd want rCorr for Slimy, but what else?
As for Abyssal, I have no idea how you'd survive long enough in there to get it.


My third rune choice tends to be silver about 60% of the time, abyssal and slimy about 20% each. Demonic is also possible, but I almost never take it as third.

Less tanky chars can easily survive V:5 with overwhelming destructive power. Not much can threaten your run with Ignition or Tornado under 10%. Just quaff brilliance and get the meatgrinder moving.
There is always something new to learn.

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 15:18

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

At first I favored vaults:5, but over the past few months I consider slime:5 to be the most consistent rune for most builds. You want rCorr, rC+, and MR +++ or better. Since this can be put off until after elf/vaults:4/depths you will almost always have access to these.

Nothing in slime pushes you off stairs, constricts you, or locks stairs. Individual enemies hit less hard until you get to TRJ. Shining eyes are annoying, but generally not too threatening if you can block them (lightning spire is especially great) or kill them with throwing/launcher/spells. Floating eyes are the most threatening enemy by far if you hare rCorr for acid blobs, but are extremely fragile/easy to kill.

TRJ itself has a number of ways to kill it safely. Most amusing is net --> lig --> torment scroll x2 --> cancellation --> immolation. Then you use a lamp of fire or whatever to start the chain reaction. If you immolate vaults:5, you will have monsters you didn't even see near you the next time you go downstairs. If you immolate this way in slime:5 after clearing the perimeter, you've won and can just loot the place and leave safely. The gear isn't THAT much worse than vaults:5. The only meaningful consumable lost this way is cancellation pot. However you can also just put a phial of floods at your back in a corridor, net TRJ and melee it to death. Stabbers can read vulnerability and 2-shot it after paralysis pretty easily. Strong single target casters can still use immolation, AoE casters don't need any help at all.

Factors that make me favor vaults:5 a bit more:

- Screen-clearing AoE (OTR + ignite poison, Ozocubu's refrigeration, ignition, any tier 9 blaster)
- Very tanky character with a ton of penetration missiles or access to pproj (can just stair dance)
- Death channel (their gank is now your gank) or infestation
- Qazlal, Ru, Yred, Beogh (smite wardens), Uskayaw (pain bond)

Abyss:

- Intention to do extended (escaping Pan)
- Faster move speed than normal
- High stealth
- High sustain (very tanky with good regen or TSO/Mak)

Abyss is my least favorite of the 3 since you're unlikely to get much good loot and you might get forced to burn more TP scrolls than the other two. For melee/heavy armor characters slime remains my favorite https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Th ... 020502.txt

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 36

Joined: Saturday, 10th December 2016, 15:38

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 16:01

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

So far, I've won with various melee builds, a couple of ranged builds and a Spriggan Enchanter (i.e. stabber), so no dedicated casters. In all cases, I've found Vaults to be the easiest 3rd rune to get.
Vault has the most amount of "normal" monsters, i.e. ones that don't inflict special effects on you and don't require any special tactics to kill. There's a lot of ranged enemies so if you have Reflection, a lot of enemies basically kill themselves.
Constriction and Vault Warden stair locking are not so bad when you know to expect them and plan accordingly. I've stair danced my way to victory on V:5 pretty much every time so far.

n Slime, corrosion can mess you up even with rCorr, and there's a good chance you'll get mutated so I tend to do it as late as possible to make the most use out of my Mutation potions. A throwing net is a must for trapping the Royal Jelly + a lamp of fire to deal extra damage + blink to get out of the mess you've created once you kill the Jelly. IMO Slime is the riskiest of all.
Abyss is the worst third rune IMO. Its sort of an endurance test. It can wear out an unprepared character and you're not guaranteed to be able to find a way out before it's too late. Plus, the floors are randomly generated as opposed to V:5 and S:5

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 16:11

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

So:

Slime is one really hard fight, requiring an unusual resistance, with a few possibly mildly dangerous fights leading up to it (to clear out Slime:5) also possibly requiring/desiring some resistances (rC+/rN+ are both helpful) There are a few strategies that help deal with TRJ in a minimally dangerous way, if you can execute one of those strategies (or are just way overpowered, even if just as a short-term thing) and can handle the mop-up, you can kill TRJ

V:5 doesn't have any *single* monster that is as hard as TRJ, but there are way more that you have to fight all at once, the supply isn't infinite, and you'll get to rest eventually, you may have to teleport one or more times if you don't have a renewable source of healing (vampiric or Mak will often suffice on a well-built character to avoid teleports). You can force the fights into the two-width corridors at the edge to contain the number of things you have to fight at a time (and increase the utility of things like wand of clouds, fire lamps, and lightning rods.)

Abyss:3 (don't go deeper unless you like punishing yourself) is filled with a nearly unlimited stream of things that range from unconsequential to somewhat dangerous, the biggest danger in the abyss is *standing still and fighting stuff* unlike the vaults, you can never "clear out" the abyss, you'll be subjected to a nonstop stream of things as long as you sit there and make noise by killing stuff, eventually it *will* whittle away your hps, and you'll be no closer to finding a rune if you stand still, since terrain shifts, any advantage given by containing the number of things that can attack you at a time is limited, generally speaking you want to avoid, avoid, kill something bothersome (or that can harry you at range) and then keep avoiding. The rune vaults are highly variable, you have to be willing to ignore one you can't handle, mostly the thing that kills people in the Abyss is impatience, and a desire to just kill everything they see.

So the easiest 3rd rune is usually:

Slime if you can set up and use one of the safe methods of killing TRJ, or have sufficient burst-power to kill him more traditionally (in one of the corridors so he doesn't surround you, summons of your own can help with this too), and can handle acid blobs and Azure jellies, and have the MR needed to avoid being perma-confused by a cloud of eyes, and either don't mind picking up some bad mutations, or can avoid them with e.x. summons or other methods. When I say 'burst damage' I mean some kind of boosted damage, for example might+agility+heroism+finesse can get a MiGl over the hump, but you couldn't sustain that if you needed that setup to kill everything in V:5.

V:5 is the easier than slime if you don't have all the requirements for TRJ, the resistances helpful in V:5 (rN+ and rElec) are both non-overlapping with Slime's and not really as important (Other resistances also might help, but not with any specific predictability, whereas, for example, Shadow Dragon breath always hurts without rN+ and it's really hard to avoid being hit with in it's entirety) I find V:5 to be good for characters who can sustain combat for a long time, if you're going to not stairdance, V:5 can be stairdanced, but doing so can occasionally trap you, if you're going with a stairdancing routine, you need a consistant way to kill wardens at range, behind enemies (so some kind of smiting/peircing attack that does enough damage to kill them) I don't personally like the stairdancing method, because you're right in the middle of the floor and are going to be mobbed from all sides, I personally feel like it leaves me less in control of the situation than beelining for a corridor and fighting it out there (if I'm fighting in a corridor, I can mostly contain the things I am fighting to one to three in melee range and can direct firepower down one hallway, however stairdancing is probably the better option for V:5 if you've got high burst damage and little sustainability, particularly if that burst comes in a package you can use to reliably take down non-adjacent wardens. Don't try to do V:5 if you can't either kill wardens to stairdance, or don't can't sustain a prolonged engagement in a corridor against a large chunk of V:5 nasties.

Abyss is more like a chase than a combat, trying to treat it like a combat will probably just get you killed. Abyss is easier when you: have above average mobility and/or stealth and can kill things quickly, and can heal up while running away. Standing still is the actual enemy in the Abyss, monsters are just there to try to trick you into falling victim to it. The Abyss is probably the trickiest of the three, and is *definitely* the most annoying, it can feel like it takes forever to find the rune (or it might drop in your lap immediately, who knows!) there's places where the rune is inaccessible if you don't have flying (and flying helps with the mobility aspect generally) so that's a nice thing to have in the abyss, there's no specific resistance that you can count on being helpful. Having a reliable way to confuse/paralyze/slow or just plain old delay (e.x. summons) enemies so you can walk away from them is helpful. You'll need to be able to recognize things that can be threats to your 'walking away' plan and be able to neutralize them quickly. Stealth helps you shake monsters that are tailing you, but isn't the most important thing in the world, nor is additional mobility (both of those are helpful, but not dealbreakers) the thing that's *always* helpful in the abyss is additional regeneration, being able to heal on the move makes a big difference, safe places to rest are very very infrequent. Since the abyss has a long teleportation delay, being able to recognize when a situation will go south *very very* early is good (and being able to prolong how many turns you stay alive is good, fragility is really bad in the abyss, and burst combat power is also not very helpful) Glass cannons, slow healers, lound combat-noise-makers, and slow movers will have the hardest time in the abyss (Comparitively speaking of course) summons (and other temporary allies) work pretty well in the abyss, but animate dead does not (Zombies are slow and a lot of stuff doesn't leave corpses)

So generally speaking I find the vaults to be the "middle" of the three, more "explody" builds might be better off with TRJ (or ones where you have the right setup), characters that will find the Abyss the easiest of the three are rare for me, but possible (Probably non-fragile summoners will be best off, but I don't play very many non-fragile summoners, personally) If I don't have a particularly specialized build, I'll probably go with the vaults, as it's the one I'm most comfortable with.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks:
nago

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 18:07

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

rN+ barely helps in slime (you might need to use one curing potion at the end to get rid of a rot). You want MR in both slime and vaults. Slime has eyes of confusion, vaults has liches + ancient liches that can abyss you (not too threatening by now) or paralyze you for much longer than a floating eye (can kill you before you move again). rCorr isn't that unusual, or did you just mean it's one you don't otherwise need? I've never cleared elf/depths/vaults:4 and not had access to it, in contrast to mid-late game MR shortages.

You have lignification, cancellation, torment, and immolation in nearly every game. I've had games where cancellation was too scarce to use this way, but still used basic "hit it hard then immolate". Most builds can do this w/o trouble, many have similarly easy alternatives.

Also while ancient liches, titans, and sphinx are weaker than TRJ individually I'd much rather fight the latter than any two of those + fodder in front of them. Even normal liches can summon greater demons and if you're not on the stairs that can go bad quickly in a way that a chunk of azure jellies/blobs/oozes just doesn't match.

Abyss is odd in that it can be scummed. Something immune to malmutation and running TSO or Mak could probably tab through it for a near-infinite XP grind. Most people don't do it, because it's completely unnecessary even for extended and there are less time consuming ways to get very strong. When just fishing for the rune you will want to stop to kill some stuff but for the most part "keep moving" is the way to go.

Blades Runner

Posts: 616

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 19:23

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

Vault5 is the easiest. The most important item is a vampiric weapon. Either that, or a god with life on kill. Move to one of the four corners and fight with a corridor. Immolation scrolls are helpful. Use teleport to reset the fight, but generally you shouldn't have to if you quaff enough potions, which you should be using for this fight. If you're a caster, ignition and tornado are the primary tools you want. Even if you don't have any of these tools, you can still whittle vault5 away with a character that has decent basic melee/armour skills.

Abyss is the second easiest. For me, it may be easier than vault5 because I'm pretty used to it, but it does have several dangers for people not already familiar with it. I don't choose it for my third rune usually, because mainly I hate getting bad mutations and I don't switch to Zin/TSO until all non-malmutate levels are cleared. The most important factors here are to keep moving, items with regeneration, blink spell, and a pile of teleport scrolls. Learn when to read the teleport scrolls before you're already in trouble and you can fairly reliably clear the abyss almost every time. When you spot a vault, drink those potions to buff up before going in.

Slimes is very dangerous. I'm usually more comfortable clearing almost the entire game before I care to do slimes. I think it's weird that it is found in the lair because it doesn't compare with anything else in the lair. Corrosion piled on high combined with enough damage combined with fast moving and ranged monsters can be deadly. The best strategy for slimes is to be at full piety with Zin and using vitalization. MR, rCorr, deflect missiles, summon lightning spire, ignition, immolation, throwing and launchers are some things that help. Mainly the issue is acid blobs and getting too corroded in combination with letting the normal blobs pile up into too big of a monster. Even if I can do slimes sooner, I usually wait because like abyss, I simply hate malmutate. Even playing carefully, you can still walk into malmutations. Therefore I clear all the areas of the game without malmutate, then use Zin and/or TSO. Zin obviously blocks malmutate, but TSO is also good with angels. Once slimes, abyss, and zot are clear, I switch to TSO and then there is just one bad level in pandemonium and a few scattered cacodemons, but your pile of potions and finishing the game are enough to repair (or make irrelevant) mutations gained at this point.

In my previous game, tomb was my third rune. I started with Gozag, but didn't want to clear Vault5 or Depths5, because I still didn't have all the dragon scale armours I wanted yet. I also didn't have piety with Zin yet, so I took TSO and cleared tomb, then I did Vault5, then went to Zin for abyss, slimes and zot. Mind you this was in 0.23 and not trunk. The last time I played trunk, the tomb was so annoying, I don't play trunk anymore. Fingers crossed something changes with traps before the next release or I don't know what I'll do. Probably it'll mean you need a good -Tele item before tomb3 can be reliably cleared.
Last edited by svendre on Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 19:51, edited 1 time in total.

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 19:39

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

You can, and should, stairdance acid blobs. With rCorr if you're getting more than -4 or -8 you're doing something weird.

If you're planning on extended malmutate is very annoying, assuming you don't switch to Zin, Jivya, or have the ability to cast lich form (and aren't undead).

I completely disagree that slime is harder than vaults:5. You need exactly one potion in slime, and can freely stairdance regardless of build. It's just not true in Vaults:5, and if you're casting ignition or something both places are trivial.

Dispersal traps are beyond obnoxious in tomb. If you're not some kind of god tier zig raiding spell caster it's going to cost a lot of consumables and still not be completely safe.

Blades Runner

Posts: 616

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 20:00

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

TheMeInTeam wrote:You can, and should, stairdance acid blobs. With rCorr if you're getting more than -4 or -8 you're doing something weird.

If you're planning on extended malmutate is very annoying, assuming you don't switch to Zin, Jivya, or have the ability to cast lich form (and aren't undead).

I completely disagree that slime is harder than vaults:5. You need exactly one potion in slime, and can freely stairdance regardless of build. It's just not true in Vaults:5, and if you're casting ignition or something both places are trivial.

Dispersal traps are beyond obnoxious in tomb. If you're not some kind of god tier zig raiding spell caster it's going to cost a lot of consumables and still not be completely safe.


Stair dancing can work for anything, but I don't think it is easier in slimes than other places. Acid blobs are fast moving so you have less time to kite from the stairs. Once you're upstairs, using teleport as an escape method can be extremely dangerous because you can end up in a pile of acid. This isn't true of other areas where you don't take damage directly from the terrain. While I agree that if you're using ignition you are well off in both places, it is easier to control the positioning of enemies in vault5 than in slimes. The fact is, that it's very difficult to control a corridor or hide around corners or behind doors in slimes, while it is pretty easy in Vault5.

You don't need a single spell to clear tomb3, but you need TSO. The consumables you use are mostly only needed here, immolation, holy, silence scrolls. To clear zigs you ideally want Makhleb, necromutation, sublimation, ignition, fire storm, tornado, crystal spear, possibly ozocubu's refrigeration, maybe dragon from, and evocations to channel mana. That's quite a huge difference.

edit: Let's not forget getting shafted in slimes...
Last edited by svendre on Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 20:20, edited 6 times in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 20:02

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

TheMeInTeam wrote:rN+ barely helps in slime (you might need to use one curing potion at the end to get rid of a rot). You want MR in both slime and vaults. Slime has eyes of confusion, vaults has liches + ancient liches that can abyss you (not too threatening by now) or paralyze you for much longer than a floating eye (can kill you before you move again). rCorr isn't that unusual, or did you just mean it's one you don't otherwise need? I've never cleared elf/depths/vaults:4 and not had access to it, in contrast to mid-late game MR shortages.

You have lignification, cancellation, torment, and immolation in nearly every game. I've had games where cancellation was too scarce to use this way, but still used basic "hit it hard then immolate". Most builds can do this w/o trouble, many have similarly easy alternatives.

Also while ancient liches, titans, and sphinx are weaker than TRJ individually I'd much rather fight the latter than any two of those + fodder in front of them. Even normal liches can summon greater demons and if you're not on the stairs that can go bad quickly in a way that a chunk of azure jellies/blobs/oozes just doesn't match.

Abyss is odd in that it can be scummed. Something immune to malmutation and running TSO or Mak could probably tab through it for a near-infinite XP grind. Most people don't do it, because it's completely unnecessary even for extended and there are less time consuming ways to get very strong. When just fishing for the rune you will want to stop to kill some stuff but for the most part "keep moving" is the way to go.

I almost never clear depths before getting my third rune (Depths seem generally about as hard as V:5 to me, so it's silly to do a branch that's just as hard as V:5 when I could just do V:5 and get the rune first), and consider elf optional and at least as dangerous as the three choices for a rune branch, and I've definitely had multiple games where I had no source of rCorr before my third rune (and a few where I've not gotten it even by the time I got to Zot) In comparison to say, rF+/rC+/rPois, rCorr is definitely less common to have available, not to say that it's likely that you won't have access to it, just that it's less common to have access to it than other resistances (it's more common than say, rElec is though)

I've definitely had lots games where there's no Nets, and some where the ability to stay out of range of TRJ so you could immolate him was severely limited (very few haste potions/blink scrolls etc.) again it's not that you are unlikely to be able to do so, you will *probably will* have access to a kit capable of killing TRJ that way, but not definitely. But, for example, If I have 10 fear, 10 teleport, 0 nets, 0 cancellation, one blink and one haste, going to V:5 and using ?fear on the welcoming party and walking by them to get into a side corridor with ?tele as a backup seems a lot more appealing than burning my more limited supplies on TRJ to immolate him to death (particularly since V:5 isn't really all that dangerous if you have a good build for it) Also I've played some games where my ability to do "a lot of damage at range" was pretty limited too (typically by virtue of my choice of build in that case, but still).

Your right about rN+, for some reason I was misremembering that death oozes attacks were draining.

Liches and Ancient liches are typically singular and move at normal speed, and while it's (always) a good idea to have MR+++ it's not as common as the danger that eyes pose, while you want MR in Vaults, it's just not as common of a problem to have, and it's one you can usually work around if you're lacking (if you're clustering things in hallways, you can kill liches before they get LOS with clouds a lot of the time) It's pretty rare that they actually cause a problem for me, if I really need to I can always walk around a corner to pull them in close to kill them quickly in melee, or teleport away. No such option exists with clouds of golden eyes in slime.

I've had things go badly with jellies as, if not more, quickly than I have in V:5 (-8 corrosion through rCorr at range isn't as uncommon as I'd prefer it was), it's really just a matter of what kind of "go badly" happens to you, and how well equipped you are to deal with it. I don't like stairdancing Slime, but that's only because I tend to dive to Slime:5 and the areas around the stairs aren't really "safe" If I more meticulously cleared the areas around the upstairs I could more safely stairdance, although acid blobs are faster than you, so if you encounter one far from the staircase, they can kill you at range before you get back to it to stairdance them.

It's my opinion that the things you need to do TRJ safely are a pretty achievable list most of the time, and I agree that if you have all the parts you need, he's probably easier than V:5, but sometimes you don't have them. If you don't have all the pieces for slime, V:5 is probably easier (Trying to do slime without all the things you really want sucks a lot more than V:5, it's still doable, but it's annoying as crap.), and the Abyss is only easier for really weird builds that both don't have all the bits to make slime easier, and don't have the staying power for V:5
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks: 2
acoolguy, svendre
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 21:07

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

Abyss is "walk around for 20 min+ and then find a lightning-themed rune vault and you don't have rElec but you're so frustrated you try for the rune anyway" except very rarely you get pulled somewhere in abyss and then there's the rune
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

For this message the author njvack has received thanks:
nago

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 21:49

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

Elf isn't free but if you have decent tactics/control and > 130 hp it should be straightforward with careful play. You do need some MR to go there safely though.

Depths is not as hard as vaults:5. Monster density isn't anywhere near it and you have lots of LoS control that you won't establish in Vaults:5 until you've cleared the hard part. If you're skipping elf and depths first then sure some resists will be more rare/you'll have fewer options. That seems odd to me though, I often do elf before vaults and it's been a long time since I've died there. Its loot is often great. "Elf is optional" sounds about the same to me as saying "orc is optional". It's not wrong to say it, but strange to avoid it all the same.

Liches aren't just a threat in LoS. They can summon stuff with torment/damnation while *not* in LoS. Fiends won't usually hurl damnation at you if you're getting mobbed, but that's also not a time you want to be getting tormented.

I'm not saying V:5 isn't doable, I'm saying that in *most* games you have the tools to do slime more easily and with less risk factor. I've only died in slime once that I can remember. I went back down the same stairs I went up after getting marked, and got paralyzed by a floating eye that wasn't there when I went up, too many jellies already in melee range. That was strictly a misplay, for obvious reasons. Pick any different stairs and I'd have walked out of the dungeon with the orb, but that's what lapses in concentration do to us :/.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 81

Joined: Monday, 18th March 2019, 22:11

Post Wednesday, 20th March 2019, 22:36

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

Seigurt did a pretty good job summarizing the dangers of slime. In generally I feel like fewer resists are necessary on V5. Vaults needs MR/LOS blocking/Cancellation potions while slime absolutely needs rCorr, rC, and MR.I do think Depth is generally quite a bit easier (but is highly dependent on if you do the vaults immediately and they layout).

I will say that I think in general I think Elf isn't worth doing. Generally by the time you can do elf, your character ha the appropriate resources to win the game, and doing that branch will likely burn more consumables than you get which will probably impact win % the most. I can't really see it worth doing unless you don't have a source of rF or your going for more than 3 runes.

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Thursday, 21st March 2019, 14:33

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

Looking to prove a point I started a deep elf fighter https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Th ... InTeam.txt

However, this character inadvertently wound up being built for any of the standard 3rd runes:

- The MR, rCorr, and rC are there, and so are the consummables to blow up TRJ.
- Brilliance + OTR + ignite with access to death channel is a ridiculous advantage on V:5
- ER 7 armor with stealth training and mana-efficient spells/stabbing makes abyss doable, especially because the defenses on this setup are pretty nice.

I will say that I think in general I think Elf isn't worth doing. Generally by the time you can do elf, your character ha the appropriate resources to win the game, and doing that branch will likely burn more consumables than you get which will probably impact win % the most.


I lost a ton of consumables in desolation of salt. In Elf, I used one blinking scroll on Elf:3, had a situation with a hell sentinel blocking the high priest in a corridor and didn't have passage of golubria available yet (if I had, I could have used brilliance and cast that instead). For species that actually have some HP + competent fighting aptitude or a deep elf that actually goes into high tier magic, you'd usually not use any (even in this case it was my failing - bad LoS control, if I played better I'd have used 0 consumables in Elf). If not doing extended blink scrolls are not very high value after 3rd rune if you can cast or evoke blink.

The reason to do elf is to make 3rd rune and probably depths easier. I usually do it before vaults now too. You can get multiple deep elf annihilators + elf packs in vaults, but vaults is also more open + has other enemies that are harder to deal with than LoS manipulating elves

Mephitic cloud is very good in both vaults and depths, most enemies including the packs lack rPois so this often beats confuse in MP efficiency and confusing touch in turn efficiency by a wide margin.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5382

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 21st March 2019, 17:22

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

There's been relatively little mention of mutations; slime and abyss have mutators which I find annoying. I typically default to vaults:5 all the time, although I'll admit it's harder than it used to be. Mutations are not the highest risk (death is worse), but I just prefer not having to deal with them. So not from a "theoretically optimal", but from a play style perspective, I prefer vaults:5.

I also typically stair dance it on characters with high AC. If you're doing this having some form of ranged/aoe damage to try to pick off vault wardens which have sealed the stairs is very helpful. If you don't have the ability to snipe them, then I'd still stair dance, but be aware that you might have to abandon the middle and do random teleports if you can't get back upstairs. I don't like starting with random teleports because while unlikely, it's possible you get a bad spot, then teleport again into another bad spot, etc etc, until you're worn down. But it is better than staying in the middle if there's no/little chance of you getting back up to vaults:4 anytime soon.

For this message the author tasonir has received thanks:
Sorcerous

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Thursday, 21st March 2019, 19:19

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

Malmutate is annoying, usually you pick up 0-2 in slime if you have a good ranged option, more if you don't, and more 0-1 if you have lightning spire to block shining eyes. There are outliers but those ranges are typical.

If you have only 2 mut pots and no -tele items you might prefer a different branch, but in *most* games this won't be a serious deciding factor. I'm not saying never to do vaults or abyss. I'm saying that in *most* games slime is the most straightforward. Not all, not 80%, just most.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 81

Joined: Monday, 18th March 2019, 22:11

Post Thursday, 21st March 2019, 22:36

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

@TheMeInTeam.

I didn't realized that the desolation of salt actually still exists though I have heard it is quite hard. In you situation it seems completely fine to do Elf, as completing Elf would improve your character strength, though I do find it interesting you find the elf end vault easier than Vaults 1 - 4. I will also admit that melee chars with good AC and EV can complete elf with burning few consumables using kill holes and careful play. Most of the time, however, I find characters that far in the game are more than capable of winning and mostly die due to overconfidence and stupidity.

@Tasonir
I do agree with you a lot on how malmutate can be pretty annoying instead of dangerous. One of the main culprits of malmutate I don't really understand is on orbs of fire, which make them less dangerous and mostly serve as a deterrent to doing extended. The rare instances where teleportitis or beserkitis is generated in Zot without mutation potions can be quite exciting though.

I will also say that I think stair dancing Vaults 5 even on high AC characters even with the ability to snipe wardens is rarely correct compared to blinking to a corner corridor or teleporting unless the character makes a ton of noise or has slow movement.

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 07:04

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

In the above situation I had already done Elf. In fact order was Elf --> Vaults --> Depths. The end vault of Elf 3 you exclude until clearing the rest of the level then lure one by one, unless you have a crazy setup that can handle so many spellcasters at once safely. I might put this off until after vaults with some builds/Elf 3 layouts, depends how close upstairs are to reset fights and such.

I actually chose vaults 5 with the build above, mostly due to brilliance bringing death channel down to 9% fail to cast before going down. OTR + ignite poison with dealt channel is a flood of spectrals. I stairdanced, plenty of screen clear and OTR/ignite clears wardens pretty fast. I don't like getting monster sandwiched on vaults:5 going into a corridor with the monster density, though sometimes this + blowing a lot of consumables is indeed preferable to stairdancing if you don't have screen clearing spells and 25/25/25 type defensive stats. Killing OOFs with short blades is always annoying (functional with mana vipers) but most of Zot was straightforward after Zot:1 where a draconian summoned a ton of death drakes and they spammed me.

Note that if you're blowing multiple consumables, the single cancellation potion using the torment/immolation trick in slime uses fewer consumables that still matter in Zot (cancellation does, torment/immo/lig not so much). So if the goal is to limit consumable use slime should be best under these circumstances, as IMO even a single haste pot used in vaults would make that less preferable.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4432

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Friday, 22nd March 2019, 08:30

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

I am not sure malmutate makes oof less dangerous. Devs can change monster speed easily and they accounted for malmutate when choosing speed for oof. Malmutate makes "take it slowly and carefully" strategy nonviable vs oof.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2173

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Saturday, 23rd March 2019, 15:59

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

I found a great illustration of the topic at hand on Demise's youtube channel. It's a stealthy spriggan, so Abyss, right? Right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOuWgxyfh9M
The Abyss part starts at 24:10

"I'm gonna go Abyss because I think it's easy"

Some 1000 turns later, after getting frail 2 as a temporary mutation (at 30:55)
"I'm in very bad shape right now... I need to be very careful"
And then of course something shows up next to him you really don't want to see with a low AC character:
"Oooh shit. That's not good."

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Sunday, 24th March 2019, 16:21

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

Interesting that even Demise is trying to use confuse over mephitic for confusion stabbing. Mephitic has higher % chance/turn against many depths enemies and is AoE, requiring only one cast to get multiple chances vs at least one but often multiple monsters.

Anyway executioners are very threatening but their hit dice is low, rather than running from a fast hasted enemy if a stabber has confusing touch that's the way to go. Demise had a ton of consumables (and potion petition), he mostly died to not playing carefully + probably some distraction from live commentary. I can say based on experience in other games that even if you've done live commentary for years it still has at least some effect :).

Similar mistakes will also get you killed in vaults/slime.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 81

Joined: Monday, 18th March 2019, 22:11

Post Monday, 25th March 2019, 01:38

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

It should be noted that confuse is more quiet than meph. cloud which is why it would be much better to use in Depths. This is also a major reason why I generally like using sticky flame quite a bit more than fireball (though both do have their applications).

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Monday, 25th March 2019, 16:51

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

acoolguy wrote:It should be noted that confuse is more quiet than meph. cloud which is why it would be much better to use in Depths. This is also a major reason why I generally like using sticky flame quite a bit more than fireball (though both do have their applications).


Mephitic is pretty loud, but if you back off as things close distance a bit then fire off 3+ of them you're usually not pulling much more. I use it pretty often in depths. It's extremely good vs spark wasps but also solid against ogre packs, troll packs, yaktaus, hell knights, tengus, most of the giants (not titans), sphinx, storm dragons, and to a lesser extent very ugly things (they take a while due to HD, but in a crowd you'll get some if you use it in a corridor).

It also works on boggarts and wizards, but you should probably just kill those quickly instead.

(21-HD)/21 chance per turn is no joke for the 16 HD monsters or lower. If you throw this on a 10 aut monster with 16 as it approaches it has just under 24% chance to confuse per turn. Depending on how you place it you get 2-3 hits of that per mephitic cast. This is > 55% chance to confuse after 3 turns (and unlike confuse, you can spend some of these turns attacking/casting other spells). That's also just for one monster, mephitic can and often does hit multiple monsters, at which point it starts competing with confusing touch in mana efficiency and a *max power* confusion in "chance to confuse something per turn" simultaneously.

It's not always the best spell to use for stabbing, due to the fact that it's loud and enemies with sufficient HD or rPois render it ineffective. However, any stabber that isn't using it at least sometimes in Elf/Vaults/Depths/Zot despite it being available is making a mistake IMO. It's also cheap enough to get online that non-stabbers can at least consider it as a utility spell.

Similarly, at max power confusing touch on a short blade has a 20% chance to confuse a gold dragon per swing at max power. Spending 2 turns worth of attacks (4 swings of dagger or rapier) gives a ~60% confuse chance, so this is not a bad way to get rid of dragons or undead/demons with lower HD than liches.

Demise plays quickly and aggressively so some of this stuff won't shine in such a context.

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1508

Joined: Monday, 21st November 2011, 07:40

Post Wednesday, 27th March 2019, 14:41

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

TheMeInTeam wrote:Similarly, at max power confusing touch on a short blade has a 20% chance to confuse a gold dragon per swing at max power. Spending 2 turns worth of attacks (4 swings of dagger or rapier) gives a ~60% confuse chance, so this is not a bad way to get rid of dragons or undead/demons with lower HD than liches.

Spell power doesn't affect HD-check hexes like Meph, Dazzling Spray and Confusing Touch.
Usual account: pblur on kelbi

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Wednesday, 27th March 2019, 18:02

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

byrel wrote:
TheMeInTeam wrote:Similarly, at max power confusing touch on a short blade has a 20% chance to confuse a gold dragon per swing at max power. Spending 2 turns worth of attacks (4 swings of dagger or rapier) gives a ~60% confuse chance, so this is not a bad way to get rid of dragons or undead/demons with lower HD than liches.

Spell power doesn't affect HD-check hexes like Meph, Dazzling Spray and Confusing Touch.


Good to know. It does boost the damage of dazzling spray (not very important) and the number of tiles covered by mephitic gas per cast on average (a bit more important). Maybe it should matter for confusing touch, that would be a small nerf to it but it's not like it would harm the game to make that spell require more investment to use to its potential.

~~~

FWIW 3 of my last 4 games (4 game win streak) chose slimy rune over silver. 4th was the DEFi I mentioned with OTR + ignite poison and death channel, which straight up flooded the entrance to V:5 with spectral allies (they were less impressive than I thought, but still blocked stuff).

In my last 10 wins, I got both runes twice, silver rune once, and only slimy as 3rd rune 7 times.

I've only ever died in slime once, which is fewer times than I've died in V:5 despite that I have fewer silver rune runes than slimy. I don't see how slime is materially worse than V:5 for most characters. I hold that these are comparable for many builds and that slime is the easier choice in many games. You do have to know how to play it though, same as any other branch.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 27th March 2019, 18:43

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

TheMeInTeam wrote:Maybe it should matter for confusing touch, that would be a small nerf to it but it's not like it would harm the game to make that spell require more investment to use to its potential.


It matters (only) for confusing touch duration (so effectively the number of tries you get before you have to recast it) Not a much impact, but not zero.
I think the spell is overpowered, so I would like to see it slightly nerfed, maybe make the confuse duration tied to the spell duration so spellpower matters more.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Blades Runner

Posts: 593

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Wednesday, 27th March 2019, 19:34

Re: Factors in 3rd rune choice

I'm a bit mixed since it's literally the only way a stabber can use magic to disable a substantial number of enemies, but by the time you're in extended you have the XP to boost it to power cap anyway.

I don't think moving it to level 2 and tying confuse duration to spell duration would hurt it though. Ever since it was unbound from needing UC to apply it's been on the strong side, short blades swing it onto stuff pretty fast.

Return to Dungeon Crawling Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.