Throwing damage


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Sunday, 10th February 2019, 01:33

Throwing damage

It's been a long time since I played so I'm not sure what changes have been made recently/not so recently.

I remember a few versions ago there was an overhaul of throwing and ranged weapon speed and damage, but it's not easy to find out what the current status of thrown weapons is regarding damage.

Is damage generally comparable between thrown weapons and melee weapons of the same base damage, assuming equal skill and stats?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5287

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 22nd February 2019, 01:06

Re: Throwing damage

I believe they settled on an odd mix of unarmed and weapon mechanics, where you get +1 damage per skill level (like unarmed) but still only need 2 levels to reduce the aut delay by 1. This applies for all throwing weapons except regular stones, which I think have their damage cut in half (to prevent them from being too strong).

See this thread for more detail, where I basically asked the same exact question (but with a lot more words): viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23762

Lasty's response is probably the most useful, since they're the developer who actually did the change.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 250

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Friday, 22nd February 2019, 22:55

Re: Throwing damage

Lasty's response gives you the numbers. From experience, throwing is no joke. I've seen people on reddit claim it's silly to train unless playing ogre/troll, but that doesn't square with the reality of throwing plain tomahawks at ancient liches until they close distance and winding up killing them before they get into crystal spear range. That's only at ~16 skill too.

Main downside is that if you don't get shoals or play trog/oka you might not have many throwing implements. I've had games where I only got ~30 tomahawks and 15 javelins for example.

Still didn't regret having throwing. Not with hexing needles thrown into the mix. That's still enough to hurl damage at anything truly threatening in a 3 rune.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5287

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Saturday, 23rd February 2019, 00:57

Re: Throwing damage

I'm getting tempted to go wizmode, give myself 1000 tomahawks, and go pure throwing for a full run. It'd probably be broken overpowered, and javelins would be completely so.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 250

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Tuesday, 26th February 2019, 16:22

Re: Throwing damage

tasonir wrote:I'm getting tempted to go wizmode, give myself 1000 tomahawks, and go pure throwing for a full run. It'd probably be broken overpowered, and javelins would be completely so.


You can more or less do this already by playing oka/trog. If you don't throw at popcorn you aren't likely to run out, and vs popcorn you don't need the help.

I've actually done such a run a few times, put some points into short blades for tabbing inconsequential stuff and then killing tough enemies or harder situations with only throwing. I don't know about "overpowered" (what basis would be used to evaluate that?), but it's certainly functional.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 26th February 2019, 16:31

Re: Throwing damage

I had a game as OgHu where I did nothing but used throwing. It was in old version though (about 0.13) so probably many things have changed.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5287

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 26th February 2019, 21:26

Re: Throwing damage

I don't know what version it was and it may have only been in trunk, but there was a brief period after the throwing reform where they hadn't yet added the stone damage / 2 penalty, and you could use plain stones for significant damage, and then run a 'pure' throwing character that way. It didn't last long, but a couple ogre throwers were posted around then. I'm not sure I'd be able to find the writeups. Nowadays throwing a regular stone is fairly weak, although you could still do it for non-threatening monsters. Melee is more convenient.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 27th February 2019, 05:31

Re: Throwing damage

My game wasn't during that period.

Edit. 0.15

  Code:
Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Throw: Large rock        |   103 |    77 |    60 |   171 |   342 |   570 |   333 |  1051 |  1024 ||  3731
       Stone             |     1 |    99 |   106 |   441 |  1370 |   298 |       |       |       ||  2315
       Tomahawk          |       |    28 |    52 |    78 |   386 |   484 |   184 |   130 |    44 ||  1386
       Javelin           |       |       |   126 |   150 |   169 |   152 |   990 |   417 |   248 ||  2252
Invok: Burn Spellbooks   |       |       |     2 |     3 |     5 |     9 |     1 |     5 |     5 ||    30
       Brothers in Arms  |       |       |       |     1 |     9 |    12 |     4 |    18 |     5 ||    49
       Trog's Hand       |       |       |       |       |     5 |     2 |    26 |     9 |     5 ||    47
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |     3 |     6 |       |     1 |     2 |     3 |     2 ||    17
       Rod               |       |       |       |       |    22 |       |       |     6 |       ||    28
  Use: Scroll            |       |     7 |    12 |    11 |     8 |     9 |     5 |    23 |     6 ||    81
       Potion            |       |       |       |     1 |       |     2 |     2 |     3 |     7 ||    15


viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12646&p=177590
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5287

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 1st March 2019, 00:01

Re: Throwing damage

.15 is when the major throwing reform was done, but I assume you mean it was after the additional stones/2 nerf. I don't remember exactly but I'm fairly sure that nerf got in fairly quickly, so yeah most .15 games are probably with the current formulas.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Friday, 1st March 2019, 05:16

Re: Throwing damage

Formulae were old (javelins required higher skill), but stones were already quite bad (damage halved).
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Sunday, 10th March 2019, 20:23

Re: Throwing damage

I am playing another OgHu game and I don't see any difference from old game, stones still kill Elephants if you are patient.
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.23.1 (tiles) character file.

Game seed: 14974286598587604281

OgHu the Warrior (Ogre Hunter)                     Turns: 24852, Time: 01:05:52

Health: 153/153    AC: 11    Str: 20    XL:     13   Next: 70%
Magic:  17/17      EV: 15    Int: 12    God:    Okawaru [*****.]
Gold:   975        SH:  0    Dex: 12    Spells: 12/12 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .   b - +9 halberd {venom, rPois, !a}
rCold    x . .     Gourm    .   (shield currently unavailable)
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   D - +0 troll leather armour
rPois    +         Spirit   .   (helmet restricted)
rElec    .         Reflect  .   s - +1 cloak
rCorr    .         Harm     .   (gloves unavailable)
MR       +....                  (boots unavailable)
Stlth    ++........             T - amulet "Yreizxye" {+Blink rC- Regen+ Stlth+}
HPRegen  1.15/turn              w - ring of wizardry {wiz+, !d}
MPRegen  0.15/turn              W - +4 ring of protection

@: no status effects
A: large, unfitting armour, tough skin 1
a: Heroism, Finesse, Renounce Religion, Evoke Blink


You are on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Okawaru.
Okawaru is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 19 of its levels.

You have collected 975 gold pieces.


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are too large for most types of armour.
You have tough skin. (AC +1)


   Skills:
 + Level 16,3 Fighting
 + Level 13,8 Throwing
 + Level 11,4 Dodging
 - Level 0,6 Stealth
 - Level 5,6 Invocations


You have 12 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.
Your spell library contains the following spells:

 Spells                   Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
 Confusing Touch          Hex            #.....       16%         1    ##.....
 Magic Dart               Conj           #...         16%         1    ##.....
 Searing Ray              Conj           #.....       24%         2    ###....
 Confuse                  Hex            #.......     41%         3    ####...
 Dazzling Spray           Conj/Hex       #.....       41%         3    ####...
 Gell's Gravitas          Tloc           #.........   41%         3    ####...
 Force Lance              Conj/Tloc      #.......     80%         4    #####..
 Fulminant Prism          Conj/Hex       #.........   80%         4    #####..
 Iskenderun's Mystic Bla  Conj           #.......     80%         4    #####..
 Petrify                  Tmut/Erth      #.......     80%         4    #####..
 Metabolic Englaciation   Hex/Ice        #.........   98%         5    ######.
 Yara's Violent Unravell  Hex/Tmut       #.........   98%         5    ######.


Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 b - the +9 halberd of Forgiveness (weapon) {venom, rPois, !a}
   (You took it off a gnoll sergeant on level 9 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It poisons the flesh of those it strikes.
   
   It protects you from poison.
Missiles
 c - a tomahawk of returning {god gift}
 d - 2 throwing nets {!f=f, !d}
 e - 8 javelins (quivered)
 l - 4 large rocks {=f}
 r - 5 tomahawks
 x - 4 tomahawks of dispersal {god gift, =f}
 z - 163 stones
 I - 3 poisoned javelins {god gift}
 K - 4 javelins of penetration {god gift}
 M - 2 needles of paralysis {god gift}
 Q - 4 poisoned tomahawks {god gift}
Armour
 s - a +1 cloak (worn)
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
 D - a +0 troll leather armour (worn)
   (You found it on level 11 of the Dungeon)
 R - a scarf of repulsion
   (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)
Jewellery
 w - a ring of wizardry (left hand) {wiz+, !d}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
 G - an uncursed amulet of the acrobat
   (You found it on level 11 of the Dungeon)
 T - the amulet "Yreizxye" (around neck) {+Blink rC- Regen+ Stlth+}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [amulet of regeneration]
   
   It makes you vulnerable to cold.
   It lets you blink.
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
   It makes you more stealthy.
 W - a +4 ring of protection (right hand)
   (You found it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)
Wands
 a - a wand of scattershot (5)
   (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)
 i - a wand of paralysis (6)
   (You found it on level 10 of the Dungeon)
 B - a wand of polymorph (9)
   (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)
 C - a wand of digging (12)
   (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)
 F - a wand of acid (10)
   (You found it on level 11 of the Dungeon)
 H - a wand of flame (13)
   (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts)
 V - a wand of disintegration (18)
   (You found it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)
Scrolls
 h - 3 scrolls of fear {!r}
 n - 4 scrolls of enchant armour {!r}
 q - 3 scrolls of identify {!r}
 t - 6 scrolls of teleportation {!r}
 u - 3 scrolls of immolation {!r}
 v - 2 scrolls of magic mapping {!r}
 J - 4 scrolls of remove curse {!r}
 L - 2 scrolls of blinking {!r}
 O - a scroll of summoning {!r}
Potions
 g - 7 potions of curing {!q}
 j - 2 potions of flight {!q}
 k - a potion of mutation {!q}
 m - 4 potions of heal wounds {!q}
 o - 2 potions of magic {!q}
 p - 2 potions of ambrosia {!q}
 A - 3 potions of haste {!q}
 E - 2 potions of lignification {!q}
 N - 2 potions of agility {!q}
 P - 2 potions of invisibility {!q}
 S - a potion of berserk rage {!q}
Comestibles
 f - 41 rations


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (12/15)            Temple (1/1) D:7            Lair (6/6) D:11
 Shoals (0/4) Lair:2        Snake (0/4) Lair:2          Orc (0/2) D:11
 Slime: Lair:5-6   

Altars:
Ashenzari
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Xom
Zin
The Shining One
Jiyva

Shops:
D:7 %

Annotations:
D:2 1 runed translucent door, Crazy Yiuf
D:10 3 runed translucent doors, Urext's ghost, novice MiBe
Lair:1 3 runed translucent doors, Purph's ghost, journeyman MiBe
Lair:4 3 runed translucent doors, Ceyroiss's ghost, journeyman HuWn

..P.#...P#......#
.....#...##...###
........#######
.........###
#..........##
..........#.##
.............#
#..#.+.......#### ###
.....#..........###.##
...+....#...#.......(##
...#.........##.......#
.# #.#................####
.#.# ....................##
...# #....................#.##
.##. ...................@....#
.....  ...#......#.............P
.####   . #.#..........}........
....      ###...................
P....       #............<......
.....       #P..PP....###.......
......      ...........#.#......
.......  ..P.......#.....#......
........ ...........#....#
...#.................#...#
................ #.......# .
..P..P#.#.#..... ##.....#...
.>.............###..........
.............#......<......#


There are no monsters in sight!

Message History

Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - spiny frog
Aim: a spiny frog (almost dead)
You throw a stone.
The stone hits the spiny frog but does no damage.
The spiny frog is almost dead.
You feel sick. The water moccasin bites you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The spiny frog stings you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
You gain the combat prowess of a mighty hero.
You feel sick. The water moccasin misses you. The spiny frog barely misses you.
The water moccasin bites you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
You can now deal lightning-fast blows.
You feel sick.
The water moccasin bites you but does no damage.
The spiny frog stings you but does no damage.
Unknown command.
Quiver which item? (- for none, * to show all) (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Quivering e - 8 javelins for throwing.
Throwing (i - inventory. (/) - cycle) e - 8 javelins (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - spiny frog
Aim: a spiny frog (almost dead)
You throw a javelin. The javelin hits the spiny frog!!
You kill the spiny frog!
The water moccasin misses you.
Throwing (i - inventory. (/) - cycle) e - 7 javelins (quivered)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - water moccasin
Aim: a water moccasin
You throw a javelin. The javelin hits the water moccasin!!!
You kill the water moccasin!
You feel sick.
You feel sick.
e - 7 javelins (gained 1); z - 127 stones (gained 2)
You feel sick.
You feel sick.
z - 128 stones (gained 1)
You feel sick.
You feel sick.
e - 8 javelins (gained 1); z - 141 stones (gained 13)
You see here a spiny frog corpse.
You feel sick.
z - 142 stones (gained 1)
You feel sick.
You feel sick.
You feel sick.
You feel sick.
You feel sick.
You start resting.
You feel sick. x2
Your hands slow down.
You feel sick. x2
You feel like a meek peon again.
You feel sick.
You are no longer poisoned.
Magic restored.
You start resting.
HP restored.
Eating one of 10 chunks of flesh. You eat one of the 10 chunks of flesh. This
raw flesh tastes terrible.
You see here a spiny frog corpse.
z - 144 stones (gained 2)
z - 145 stones (gained 1)
z - 146 stones (gained 1)
You now have 957 gold pieces (gained 19).
z - 147 stones (gained 1)
z - 148 stones (gained 1)
Found a stone staircase leading down.
V - a wand of disintegration (18)
z - 163 stones (gained 15)
You fall through a shaft!
The shaft crumbles and collapses.
Found 14 gold pieces and a wand of digging (6).
Found a stone staircase leading up.
C - a wand of digging (12) (gained 6 charges)
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
You climb upwards.
Found 18 gold pieces.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
Found a stone staircase leading down.
You now have 975 gold pieces (gained 18).
Found 8 curare-tipped needles.
Found a box of beasts.
Found an escape hatch in the ceiling.
t - 6 scrolls of teleportation {!r} (gained 1)
W - a runed moonstone ring
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You're wearing all the rings you can. Remove which one?
(? for menu, Esc to cancel)
< or w - a ring of wizardry {wiz+, !d}; > or y - a +2 ring of intelligence
You remove your +2 ring of intelligence.
You feel stupid.
W - a +4 ring of protection (right hand)
Drop what? 49/52 slots (_ for help) (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You drop a +2 ring of intelligence.
All of the chunks of flesh in your inventory have rotted away.
Unknown command.
Saving game... please wait.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | OgHu the Ogre Hunter began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 22/22 MP: 1/1
   160 | D:1      | Reached skill level 3 in Fighting
   160 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 30/31 MP: 2/2
  1043 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 37/37 MP: 3/3
  1116 | D:2      | Noticed Sigmund
  1165 | D:2      | Killed Sigmund
  1165 | D:2      | Reached skill level 4 in Fighting
  1165 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 32/49 MP: 4/4
  1165 | D:2      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 36/55 MP: 5/5
  1231 | D:2      | Found a runed translucent door.
  1232 | D:2      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  1333 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  1570 | D:2      | Noticed Robin
  1573 | D:2      | Killed Robin
  1573 | D:2      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 66/66 MP: 6/6
  3030 | D:3      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 55/74 MP: 7/7
  3129 | D:3      | Reached skill level 6 in Fighting
  4601 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4754 | D:4      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 62/84 MP: 8/8
  4888 | D:5      | Reached skill level 7 in Fighting
  5575 | D:5      | You fall through a shaft!
  6085 | D:5      | Found a hazy altar of Hepliaklqana.
  6469 | D:5      | Noticed Blork the orc
  6474 | D:5      | Killed Blork the orc
  6829 | D:5      | Reached skill level 8 in Fighting
  6864 | D:5      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  6894 | D:5      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  7707 | D:6      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  7736 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 66/97 MP: 9/9
  7917 | D:6      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  8684 | D:6      | Noticed Pikel
  8886 | D:6      | Killed Pikel
  8886 | D:6      | Reached skill level 9 in Fighting
  8886 | D:6      | Reached skill level 10 in Throwing
  9124 | D:7      | Found Vutyag's Food Emporium.
  9170 | D:7      | Got a polished flail
  9237 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  9338 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  9531 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Warmaster Okawaru
  9559 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 10297 | D:8      | Reached * piety under Okawaru
 10297 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 85/110 MP: 10/10
 10489 | D:8      | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 10555 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
 10623 | D:8      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
 10801 | D:8      | Paralysed by a hornet for 1 turns
 11368 | D:8      | Paralysed by a hornet for 1 turns
 12282 | D:9      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
 12313 | D:9      | Reached ** piety under Okawaru
 13190 | D:9      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 13251 | D:9      | Noticed Erica
 13461 | D:9      | Reached skill level 11 in Fighting
 13495 | D:9      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 119/120 MP: 13/13
 13556 | D:9      | Killed a two-headed ogre
 13556 | D:9      | Reached *** piety under Okawaru
 13556 | D:9      | Received a gift from Okawaru
 13569 | D:9      | Killed Erica
 13798 | D:9      | Noticed Grum
 13822 | D:9      | Killed Grum
 13968 | D:9      | Identified the +9 halberd of Forgiveness {venom, rPois}
 14508 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
 14836 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 14952 | D:10     | Found a runed translucent gate.
 14952 | D:10     | Found a runed translucent gate.
 14952 | D:10     | Found a runed translucent gate.
 14953 | D:10     | Noticed Urext's ghost (novice MiBe)
 14953 | D:10     | Noticed an 11-headed hydra
 14954 | D:10     | Noticed a 12-headed hydra
 15715 | D:11     | Reached **** piety under Okawaru
 16281 | D:11     | Noticed a white ugly thing
 16282 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 16288 | D:11     | Killed a white ugly thing
 16518 | D:11     | You fall through a shaft!
 16519 | D:12     | Noticed a brown ugly thing
 16521 | D:12     | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 16543 | D:12     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 16841 | D:12     | Reached skill level 12 in Fighting
 16907 | D:12     | Noticed a brown ugly thing
 16994 | D:12     | Killed a brown ugly thing
 17359 | D:11     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 17374 | D:11     | Noticed Maurice
 17432 | D:11     | Killed Maurice
 17432 | D:11     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 83/133 MP: 16/16
 18001 | D:11     | Reached skill level 13 in Fighting
 18269 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 18421 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 18438 | Lair:1   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 18770 | Lair:1   | Found a runed translucent gate.
 18771 | Lair:1   | Found a runed translucent gate.
 19101 | Lair:1   | Found a runed translucent gate.
 19105 | Lair:1   | Noticed Purph's ghost (journeyman MiBe)
 19358 | Lair:1   | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 19395 | Lair:1   | Reached ***** piety under Okawaru
 19837 | Lair:2   | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 19862 | Lair:2   | Killed a seven-headed hydra
 19920 | Lair:2   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 19954 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 14 in Fighting
 20156 | Lair:2   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 20543 | Lair:2   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 20577 | Lair:2   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 20935 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 20939 | Lair:3   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 21338 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 21627 | Lair:3   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 111/149 MP: 17/17
 21722 | Lair:3   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 23041 | Lair:3   | Got a jewelled trident
 23048 | Lair:3   | Identified the cursed +0 trident "Fiufus" {antimagic, *Slow
                  | Int+5} (You found it on level 3 of the Lair of Beasts)
 23543 | Lair:4   | Found a runed translucent gate.
 23543 | Lair:4   | Found a runed translucent gate.
 23543 | Lair:4   | Found a runed translucent gate.
 23575 | Lair:4   | Noticed Ceyroiss's ghost (journeyman HuWn)
 23663 | Lair:4   | Got an ancient zirconium amulet
 23664 | Lair:4   | Identified the amulet "Yreizxye" {+Blink rC- Regen+ Stlth+}
                  | (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)
 23889 | Lair:4   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 23889 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 16 in Fighting
 24792 | Lair:5   | You fall through a shaft!
 24792 | Lair:6   | Entered Level 6 of the Lair of Beasts

Vanquished Creatures
  2 hydras
  A catoblepas (Lair:5)
  Erica (D:9)
  A two-headed ogre (D:9)
  Pikel (D:6)
  2 ugly things
  Maurice (D:11)
  An oklob plant (Lair:1)
  2 elephants (Lair:3)
  A gargoyle (D:12)
  2 black mambas (Lair:2)
  7 spiny frogs
  A torpor snail (Lair:3)
  A kobold demonologist (D:11)
  A rime drake (Lair:3)
  3 komodo dragons
  A queen bee (Lair:3)
  2 trolls
  9 hippogriffs
  9 blink frogs
  2 hornets
  Sigmund (D:2)
  A wyvern (Lair:3)
  38 yaks
  A fire bat (D:8)
  Grum (D:9)
  A wraith (D:12)
  A hungry ghost (D:11)
  2 steam dragons (Lair:3)
  3 basilisks (Lair:3)
  A soldier ant (D:8)
  14 water moccasins
  6 porcupines
  2 ice beasts
  2 orc warriors
  5 sky beasts
  4 slaves (D:6)
  A swamp drake (D:11)
  An eye of draining (D:12)
  7 ogres
  3 phantoms
  15 wolves
  9 centaurs
  13 crocodiles
  Blork the orc (D:5)
  11 bullfrogs
  A gnoll sergeant (D:9)
  A water moccasin skeleton (D:10)
  A wyvern skeleton (D:12)
  2 scorpions
  3 wights (D:10)
  32 killer bees
  3 howler monkeys (D:11)
  4 electric eels (D:11)
  7 crimson imps
  3 bullfrog zombies
  2 bullfrog skeletons
  6 orc priests
  8 hounds
  3 jellies
  3 iguanas
  15 orc wizards
  12 worker ants
  A hound zombie (D:8)
  A howler monkey zombie (D:10)
  Robin (D:2)
  14 adders
  7 gnolls
  5 shadow imps
  3 oozes
  An adder skeleton (D:4)
  An adder zombie (D:9)
  4 worms
  A dart slug (D:1)
  6 leopard geckos
  48 orcs
  3 giant cockroaches
  16 goblins
  7 hobgoblins
  13 jackals
  6 quokkas
  A ball python (Lair:2)
  10 bats
  6 frilled lizards
  10 kobolds
  A leopard gecko skeleton (D:5)
  A quokka skeleton (D:8)
  5 rats
473 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  An orc warrior (D:11)
  2 orcs (D:11)
  2 fungi (Lair:4)
  6 plants
11 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 484 creatures vanquished

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Throw: Stone             |   108 |   373 |   788 |  1469 |   636 ||  3374
       Large rock        |     8 |    15 |    38 |    56 |     9 ||   126
       Throwing net      |     1 |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Tomahawk          |       |       |    12 |   133 |    55 ||   200
       Javelin           |       |       |     6 |    23 |    37 ||    66
Invok: Heroism           |       |       |       |    16 |     9 ||    25
       Finesse           |       |       |       |     1 |     3 ||     4
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |     1 |     5 |       ||     6
  Use: Scroll            |     3 |       |     5 |    17 |     5 ||    30
       Potion            |     1 |     1 |       |     1 |       ||     3
  Eat: Chunk             |       |     6 |    11 |    30 |     9 ||    56
       Ration            |       |       |     3 |     2 |       ||     5
Armor: Robe              |    26 |    35 |    93 |   108 |       ||   262
       Troll leather arm |       |       |       |    72 |    80 ||   152
Dodge: Dodged            |    30 |    63 |   157 |   500 |   347 ||  1097

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 |
---------------+----------------------------------------+-----
Fighting       |  3     4     5     6  8  9 11 12 15 16 | 16,3
Throwing       |        6        7  8  9 11 12 13       | 13,8
Dodging        |                    2  3  5  6  8 10 11 | 11,4
Invocations    |                             3  5       |  5,6
Stealth        |                                        |  0,6

Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6107

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Sunday, 10th March 2019, 23:34

Re: Throwing damage

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I am playing another OgHu game and I don't see any difference from old game, stones still kill Elephants if you are patient.

The difference in damage that stones do between the pre-current-formula and the prior one is minimal, the only thing that changed in the most recent revision (commit) is that the base speed and min delay for throwing weapons was moved into line with comparable weapons (instead of it being like it was in the old version, where thrown weapons had the base and min delay of unarmed)

Stones were less effected by that change, and I'd expect them to behave similarly (they go from 1.1 -> 0.7 delay at skill 8 instead of from 1.0 -> 0.5 delay at skill 27, with the same damage) At moderate levels of skill the difference would be pretty small.
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Shoals Surfer

Posts: 250

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Friday, 15th March 2019, 20:47

Re: Throwing damage

I gave a throwing run another spin too: https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/Th ... 024619.txt

I'm reminded of how annoying it is to carry all the different variants of missiles. Aside from that, however, throwing is still very strong if you don't have to worry about running out of stuff to throw. Oka took care of that, I often forgot to use my god abilities because anything that wasn't trivial got smashed with javelins or large rocks. Large rocks with finesse are crazy.

I picked staves as the opener since as my secondary/popcorn option it only needs 14 points of skill training for mindelay and ogres don't have a bad aptitude in it. Of course between Agnes and Oka gifts I wound up with great options there too. For a long time I even had a draining lajatang, which solos any non-rN enemy pretty hard.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 423

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Saturday, 16th March 2019, 10:54

Re: Throwing damage

I ran a throwing centaur recently, but my experience was different: https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/pete ... 185451.txt

Stones did some damage, but not much at all, and if I used non-stones they mulched at an alarming rate. Probably faster than Oka gave new missiles to me, though I didn't test that. I killed a lot of things with my artefact +9 demon blade of Howuis {elec, Fragile, Int+3 Dex+3}, to conserve ammo (thrown tomahawks did significantly more damage than the demon blade.)
Eventually I unequiped the demon blade of Howuis to get to +10 slaying, but after that stones still didn't really cut butter.
Part of the problem might have been that Oka kept giving me weapons and needles instead of javelins and tomahawks.

PS: I agree, carrying missiles is really annoying.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Saturday, 16th March 2019, 22:27

Re: Throwing damage

When species can throw large rocks, it is much easier for ammo conservation because it takes less attacks to kill the most dangerous monsters while vs not so dangerous stones are ok.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 250

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Monday, 18th March 2019, 18:25

Re: Throwing damage

Also, shoals spams throwing implements (javelins of various types, tomahawks) such that you're far less likely to run out than if you get swamp. With Oka and reserving throwing to things that are at least worth using heroism to kill you shouldn't run out, same with Trog.

I don't think I'd train it if planning on a game that does extended. Still useful there no doubt but it'd be a pain to manage the resources. I suppose the usual Oka or Trog --> switch would still have enough left over to get the job done though.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 19th March 2019, 06:38

Re: Throwing damage

For the record I had Shoals, Oka, could use all throwables and still ran out of non-stones in Zot 5. It is working as intended I guess, otherwise throwing would be even more OP.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 423

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Tuesday, 19th March 2019, 09:17

Re: Throwing damage

But did you only run out because you couldn't pick them up, or because everything mulched?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 19th March 2019, 09:34

Re: Throwing damage

I couldn't pick them up. Everything mulched would mean it is unplayable without Oka and Shoals.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

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