Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4196

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Sunday, 23rd December 2018, 23:58

Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Passwall has no real synergy with the other spells in the EE starting book*. Currently, it is actually a newbie trap that someone memorizes it as the next spell after Sandblast. So I suggest that Passwall be removed from the Book of Geomancy.

I don't care if it is replaced by something or not. I also don't care if Passwall should be somewhere else than Burglary.

(Also, just to be clear, I think Passwall is a fine spell for many characters. Just not early-game EEs.)

*unless you count passwalling a wall and LRD'ing monsters from the other side of the wall which imo is degenerate gameplay
...HuEE{HEMoDEHuDDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWr
SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCj
GhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFE

Dungeon Master

Posts: 620

Joined: Thursday, 23rd October 2014, 03:08

Post Monday, 24th December 2018, 04:34

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

why is memorizing an escape spell a newbie trap

For this message the author CanOfWorms has received thanks: 3
duvessa, nago, TheMeInTeam

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6007

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Monday, 24th December 2018, 05:16

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

1. You can't passwall and LRD things on the other side of a wall.
2. Passwall stabbings lead into petrify stabbings, which is a powerful way to play an EE.
3. Passwall is no worse than swiftness certainly..
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8571

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 24th December 2018, 05:44

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

passwall is useful and every EE should memorize it, but it is definitely worse than swiftness

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
nago

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6007

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Monday, 24th December 2018, 06:01

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

duvessa wrote:passwall is useful and every EE should memorize it, but it is definitely worse than swiftness

Sorry I should've said "No more a newbie trap than swiftness, certainly" yes, it's worse than swiftness (in most situations)
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4196

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Sunday, 30th December 2018, 00:48

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Ok so nobody agrees with me. Mods: feel free to move this to DCA because I'd like to discuss how EEs are typically played.

I only have two EE victories. The first, HuEE of Vehumet (6 runes, DCSS 0.13) memorized Passwall on D:2 and cast it like this:
  Code:
Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
       Passwall          |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 |       |    15 ||    17

And the second, DrEE of Ru (3 runes, DCSS 0.17) memorized Passwall on D:1 and never cast it.

Now in my current game (BaEE of Ru) I memorized Passwall after every other spell in the starting book. Sure enough, I have used it (I have the rune from Swamp and just entered Snake):
  Code:
Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
       Passwall          |       |       |       |       |     2 |     3 ||     5

I actually used it once for escaping and 4 times for just going in and out somewhere where I otherwise couldn't.

So I would like to know, when do your EEs usually memorize Passwall and how much do you use it? I think it's more important to get Stone Arrow before you run out of stones for Sandblast (yes this happens in the very early game now that Sandblast always uses stones). And then Petrify is really good...

As for
2. Passwall stabbings lead into petrify stabbings, which is a powerful way to play an EE.
that I don't get at all. How do you Passwall-stab something unless you took Ash on D:2? Do you train stealth and/or short blades or just do unskilled stabbing? In my experience, unskilled stabbing is not very powerful and for example in my current game (where I have used Petrify a lot), I much rather hit the petrified monsters with my +9 morningstar of crushing than the +3 dagger of draining that I also have... Granted, I have already trained M&F to 13 so there's that. But the actual question is, does somebody actually play EEs like that (first Passwall-stabbing(?), then Petrify-stabbing)?
...HuEE{HEMoDEHuDDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWr
SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCj
GhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFE

Dungeon Master

Posts: 620

Joined: Thursday, 23rd October 2014, 03:08

Post Sunday, 30th December 2018, 01:02

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

if you see a monster and it didn't wake up, you can just reposition yourself to stab it. if you're a formicid, you can detect them. in any case I memorize passwall immediately because it's effectively a safe teleport if you're using it correctly

to get stone arrow the moment it's available just requires getting 2 spellcasting, which you get for free if you're any race with at least -1 spellcasting.

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 223221.txt
  Code:
Passwall          |       |     9 |    11 |     3 |     9 |    13 |     5 |     4 |    20 ||    74

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 034158.txt
  Code:
Passwall          |     5 |     2 |     4 |     3 |    11 |    14 |       |     6 |    50 ||    95

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 040701.txt
  Code:
Passwall          |       |     2 |     8 |    16 |    20 |    18 |     1 |    15 |    10 ||    90

For this message the author CanOfWorms has received thanks:
Sprucery
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4196

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Sunday, 30th December 2018, 01:17

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Ok so those are all vampires who are usually pretty stealthy. They all also trained short blades and stealth quite a lot. Maybe those aren't typical EEs though (meaning: how people generally play EEs). Or are they?
...HuEE{HEMoDEHuDDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWr
SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCj
GhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFE

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6007

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Sunday, 30th December 2018, 02:43

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Sprucery wrote:Ok so those are all vampires who are usually pretty stealthy. They all also trained short blades and stealth quite a lot. Maybe those aren't typical EEs though (meaning: how people generally play EEs). Or are they?

I always get some stealth+short blades with my EE, it pairs well with both passwall and petrify, and it doesn't take a lot to become effective (Maybe 4-6 points of both)
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6007

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Sunday, 30th December 2018, 02:49

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Siegurt wrote:
Sprucery wrote:Ok so those are all vampires who are usually pretty stealthy. They all also trained short blades and stealth quite a lot. Maybe those aren't typical EEs though (meaning: how people generally play EEs). Or are they?

I always get some stealth+short blades with my EE, it pairs well with both passwall and petrify, and it doesn't take a lot to become effective (Maybe 4-6 points of both)

From my last FoEE game:
  Code:
Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 |
---------------+-------------------------------------------------+-----
Spellcasting   |     3                 4           6  7  8       |  8.1
Earth Magic    |     4  5        7     8  9 11 13 14          15 | 15.0
Stealth        |           3  4        6  7  8 10       11    12 | 12.5
Short Blades   |              2        4     5  6  8             |  8.0
Transmutations |                 2        4              6       |  6.0
Conjurations   |                 3                 6             |  6.0
Fighting       |                          3        4  6  9    10 | 10.0
Dodging        |                          4  6                   |  6.0
Shields        |                                   5  9          |  9.2
Long Blades    |                                      3  6     7 |  7.6
Bows           |                                      3  6       |  6.1

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Dagger            |    46 |    28 |   127 |   184 |    75 |    16 ||   476
       Quarterstaff      |       |       |    10 |    19 |       |       ||    29
       Short sword       |       |       |       |   301 |    37 |       ||   338
       Shortbow          |       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
       Quick blade       |       |       |       |       |   516 |   514 ||  1030
       Staff             |       |       |       |       |     6 |     2 ||     8
 Fire: Shortbow          |       |       |     1 |    71 |       |       ||    72
       Longbow           |       |       |       |       |    67 |       ||    67
Throw: Stone             |     4 |       |     2 |     2 |     6 |       ||    14
 Cast: Sandblast         |    32 |    83 |    64 |    32 |     1 |    12 ||   224
       Passwall          |       |    12 |    10 |    20 |     8 |    17 ||    67
       Stone Arrow       |       |     9 |    35 |    21 |    53 |    11 ||   129
       Petrify           |       |       |    13 |   153 |   159 |    67 ||   392
       Lee's Rapid Decon |       |       |     5 |    40 |    30 |    18 ||    93
       Animate Skeleton  |       |       |       |       |    15 |    32 ||    47
Invok: Lunge             |       |       |     7 |    58 |    58 |    40 ||   163
       Whirlwind         |       |       |     2 |    62 |   100 |   117 ||   281
       Heavenly Storm    |       |       |       |       |     1 |     2 ||     3
       Serpent's Lash    |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
 Abil: Dig               |       |     2 |     1 |     6 |    14 |     1 ||    24
       Shaft Self        |       |       |     1 |       |       |       ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |     1 |     1 |    10 |     2 |     1 ||    15
  Use: Scroll            |     5 |     3 |     6 |     4 |    14 |     3 ||    35
       Potion            |       |     5 |     1 |    15 |     3 |     2 ||    26
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |    14 |    10 |    23 |     7 |    19 ||    73
       Paralysed         |       |     1 |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Petrified         |       |       |    11 |    80 |    85 |    18 ||   194
       Petrifying        |       |       |     2 |    18 |    74 |    35 ||   129
       Distracted        |       |       |       |       |     2 |     3 ||     5
  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |    10 |    11 |    33 |    25 |    15 ||    96
       Ration            |       |       |     4 |    10 |     8 |     2 ||    24
Armor: Robe              |    21 |    15 |    27 |    94 |    71 |    33 ||   261
       Troll leather arm |       |       |     9 |    38 |       |       ||    47
       Skin              |       |       |       |    34 |       |       ||    34
       Ring mail         |       |       |       |       |       |    19 ||    19
       Leather armour    |       |       |       |       |       |     4 ||     4
Dodge: Dodged            |    39 |    43 |   130 |   358 |   160 |   104 ||   834
       Deflected         |     1 |     1 |     2 |     3 |       |     1 ||     8
Block: Shield            |       |       |       |       |   124 |   124 ||   248
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks:
Sprucery
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4196

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Sunday, 30th December 2018, 11:30

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Ok, I'll keep this thread in mind the next time I play EE. At least if it's with an at least somewhat stealthy species. Passwall-stabbing requires you to pass two stealth checks, right? And if you cast LRD somewhere near you can forget that...

If duvessa is still reading this thread, I would like to know what they think about training stealth on EEs... :)
...HuEE{HEMoDEHuDDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWr
SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCj
GhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFE

Temple Termagant

Posts: 7

Joined: Sunday, 1st January 2017, 20:58

Post Sunday, 30th December 2018, 14:02

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Also even if you're not stealthy, it can be quite nice for hopping through walls to escape scary things, or to save you from bad positioning mistakes where otherwise you might be stuck.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8571

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Sunday, 30th December 2018, 19:39

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Training stealth on EE is bad

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
Sprucery
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4415

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Monday, 31st December 2018, 02:29

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Mod note: Moved from GDD go Advice
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4261

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Monday, 31st December 2018, 08:02

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Even DDEE can use passwall just fine. Note that I needed it early but it was still useful all game. Late game I used it in FDS.

  Code:
       Passwall          |       |       |       |     1 |    13 |     3 |     5 |     1 |    26 ||    49

       Sleeping          |       |       |       |     6 |    56 |    40 |    25 |     6 |    54 ||   187


 - Level 7,8 Stealth
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5271

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 8th January 2019, 17:48

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

I play a lot of EE's, almost never memorize and thus never use passwall. This is because I'm lazy, and go brute force over stealth. That said, there's no reason my lack of tactical finesse should in any way be taken as a reason to remove if from the book, it's a fine spell for those of you who care about escaping :)

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6007

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Tuesday, 8th January 2019, 20:44

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Sprucery wrote:Ok, I'll keep this thread in mind the next time I play EE. At least if it's with an at least somewhat stealthy species. Passwall-stabbing requires you to pass two stealth checks, right

Passwall creates some (small) casting noise at the caster's location (before you enter the wall) which might wake a creature up, (but probably not, if it's an actual wall and not like right next to a corner)

It doesn't cause any noise or generate a second stealth check when you arrive at your destination, generally speaking if you can passwall adjacent to a sleeping something, you'll probably be able to sleep stab it.

The main reason to train stealth as an EE is to increase the amount of damage you do when you stab stuff cheaply (It's far cheaper to get 4 in short blades and 4 in stealth than it is to get 8 in short blades) a secondary reason is so you don't wake stuff up when you walk into LOS (So you can more frequently retreat, sneak around from another direction and passwall stab them) You certainly don't want to invest much XP into stealth/stabbing, but "free kills" are worth a pretty minor XP investment IMHO.

Once you get petrify online, stabbing additionally serves as an MP saver, by letting you kill potentially dangerous things with low MR with just one petrify instead of a few (or one petrify and a few LRDs), still not worth loads of XP, but a little goes a long way.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 177

Joined: Tuesday, 11th December 2018, 19:14

Post Tuesday, 8th January 2019, 21:55

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

IMO the utility for "moving through a wall and thus not adjacent to things otherwise faster than you" is greater than its utility as a stabbing tool. EE has the kill potential it needs with its damaging spells, though petrify covers offense a bit in situations where walls aren't readily accessible or just to stop monsters with annoying spells/abilities from using them after a few turns.

For this message the author TheMeInTeam has received thanks:
Fingolfin
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4196

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Tuesday, 8th January 2019, 21:56

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Siegurt wrote:It doesn't cause any noise or generate a second stealth check when you arrive at your destination, generally speaking if you can passwall adjacent to a sleeping something, you'll probably be able to sleep stab it.

Really, no stealth check when you emerge through the wall next to the monster? I sure didn't know that. This does make passwall stabbing a lot more intriguing.
...HuEE{HEMoDEHuDDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWr
SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCj
GhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFE

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4261

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 9th January 2019, 06:43

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

Is it really so? I've seen monster wake up after passwall. Or can monster wake up without stealth check?
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 263

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Wednesday, 9th January 2019, 15:55

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Is it really so? I've seen monster wake up after passwall. Or can monster wake up without stealth check?


I've never seen a monster wake up after passwall, and I've run a EE stabber all the way to Zot. Are you certain that the monster didn't wake up before you passwalled?

Dungeon Master

Posts: 620

Joined: Thursday, 23rd October 2014, 03:08

Post Wednesday, 9th January 2019, 20:13

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

no time passes after you passwall so it's impossible for a monster to make a stealth check. if your passwall destination contains a monster, you will forcibly move it and wake it up

For this message the author CanOfWorms has received thanks: 2
njvack, VeryAngryFelid

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4261

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Thursday, 10th January 2019, 08:37

Re: Remove Passwall from Book of Geomancy

It happened just once in all my games and I was unpleasantly surprised. I noticed sleeping Jorgrun, retreated (it kept sleeping), used passwall to land near it and it was waken up when passwall landed me neat it. It was long time ago so maybe it was a bug or maybe I just misplaced passwall and moved into Jorgrun as CanOfWorms explained.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Return to Dungeon Crawling Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.