How good is amulet of the acrobat?

Sunday, 7th October 2018, 22:33 by byrel

Hey, I'm picking up crawl again after long hiatus. Running a pretty standard SpEn of Gozag to get my mind back in the game.

I found an amulet of the acrobat early (D:3, I think), and I've been enjoying it for quite a while. I'm in Lair now, and I have a Gozag shop with most of the other base amulet types in it; I'm just not sure how powerful Acrobat is compared to +5 reflection or Guardian Spirit.

My dump, in case it's relevant:

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.22.1-1-ga44c0e5 (webtiles) character file. byrel the Jinx (Spriggan Enchanter) Turns: 21113, Time: 01:24:49 Health: 62/62 AC: 7 Str: 4 XL: 12 Next: 90% Magic: 21/21 EV: 26 Int: 22 God: Gozag Gold: 2375 SH: 10 Dex: 16 Spells: 4/21 levels left rFire + . . SeeInvis + x - +4 dagger (distort) rCold . . . Gourm . r - +2 buckler rNeg . . . Faith . y - +2 robe {Archmagi} rPois . Spirit . (helmet restricted) rElec . Reflect . H - +2 cloak rCorr . Harm . (gloves unavailable) MR +++.. (boots unavailable) Stlth ++++...... m - amulet of the acrobat HPRegen 0.20/turn f - ring of protection from magic MPRegen 0.17/turn p - ring of protection from fire @: very quick A: very small, unfitting armour, see invisible, herbivore, speed 3, slow metabolism 2 a: Potion Petition, Call Merchant, Bribe Branch, Renounce Religion You are on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts. You worship Gozag. Gozag is most pleased with you. You are not hungry. You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 16 of its levels. You have also visited: Bailey. You have collected 4665 gold pieces. You have spent 18 gold pieces at shops. You have paid 2272 gold pieces to Gozag. Inventory: Hand Weapons x - a +4 dagger of distortion (weapon) z - an ancient morningstar Missiles a - 20 tomahawks of returning (quivered) G - 2 throwing nets Armour q - a +2 robe of resistance r - a +2 buckler (worn) y - a +2 robe of the Archmagi (worn) H - a +2 cloak (worn) Jewellery f - a ring of protection from magic (left hand) m - an amulet of the acrobat (around neck) p - a ring of protection from fire (right hand) E - an uncursed ring of stealth F - an uncursed ring of protection from cold W - an uncursed ring of flight Y - an uncursed ring of resist corrosion Wands w - a wand of digging (21) C - a wand of acid (21) I - a wand of iceblast (11) J - a wand of polymorph (9) K - a wand of paralysis (22) M - a wand of enslavement (18) U - a wand of clouds (3) Scrolls b - a scroll of enchant armour e - a scroll of fear g - a scroll labeled TAK KOUSHIM k - 3 scrolls of amnesia n - 8 scrolls of teleportation o - 7 scrolls of remove curse v - a scroll labeled LOWUTZU METI B - a scroll labeled ZAONWEL KAOS D - 2 scrolls labeled CYMMOA KOXIUM L - 2 scrolls of holy word O - a scroll labeled KUMMED NOGIJAR Q - a scroll of magic mapping R - a scroll labeled NYSHRYO VEOTIF Potions c - 3 potions of lignification h - a potion of might i - 5 potions of brilliance j - 3 potions of mutation l - a potion of ambrosia s - a potion of magic t - 6 potions of curing u - 2 potions of heal wounds S - a potion of invisibility T - a potion of flight X - a potion of berserk rage Z - 2 potions of agility Miscellaneous N - a phantom mirror Comestibles d - 33 rations Skills: * Level 6.7 Fighting - Level 10.0 Short Blades * Level 10.7 Dodging - Level 10.0 Stealth - Level 7.3 Shields - Level 5.3 Spellcasting - Level 12.8 Hexes - Level 3.7 Ice Magic + Level 4.5 Evocations You have 4 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Tukima's Dance Hex #######. 1% 3 ##..... b - Ensorcelled Hibernat Hex/Ice ###### 1% 2 None c - Confuse Hex #######. 1% 3 ##..... d - Dazzling Spray Conj/Hex ###### 1% 3 ##..... e - Invisibility Hex #######. 8% 6 ####### Your spell library contains the following spells: Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger Corona Hex ####### 1% 1 None Apportation Tloc #..... 10% 1 None Summon Butterflies Summ #....... 10% 1 None Lesser Beckoning Tloc #......... 28% 3 ##..... Alistair's Intoxication Tmut/Pois #....... 95% 5 #####.. Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (12/15) Temple (0/1) D:7 Lair (4/6) D:11 Shoals (0/4) Lair:3 Snake (0/4) Lair:2 Orc (0/2) D:10 Altars: Cheibriados Dithmenos Elyvilon Fedhas Gozag Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Trog Vehumet Xom Shops: D:4 [ D:5 * D:6 : D:8 * Lair:4 =} Annotations: Abyss:1 Duvessa, Joseph Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You are very small and have problems with some larger weapons. You are too small for most types of armour. You have supernaturally acute eyesight. (SInv) You are a herbivore. You cover ground extremely quickly. You need to consume almost no food. Message History As you read the scroll of identify, it crumbles to dust. h - a potion of might Magic restored. There is a stone staircase leading up here. Found 17 bolts. Done exploring. [a] 578 gold - Goenu's Food Emporium [b] 906 gold - Ewik's Magic Scroll Emporium [c] 791 gold - Jeferoth's Antique Weapon Emporium [d] 530 gold - Kuywnic's Gadget Boutique Fund which merchant? Kuywnic invites you to visit its Gadget Boutique. Done exploring. [a] 636 gold - Rius Men's Food Boutique [b] 703 gold - Xuad's Antique Weapon Shop [c] 1017 gold - Cufol's Jewellery Shop [d] 688 gold - Toupror's Weapon Emporium Fund which merchant? You no longer have enough gold to bribe branches to halt enemies' attacks and Cufol invites you to visit her Jewellery Shop. #...............#P... #...................P #<................... #.................... #...........#.....#.. #................##.. #...........##..#.#.. ###.........P#..###.. ##@âˆ©...........##.. #.....(..###...... ##P....P## ##.#... ######## ###..# #.### ### There are no monsters in sight! Vanquished Creatures Fannar (Lair:1) A hydra (Lair:1) Sonja (Lair:3) 2 cyclopes (D:12) 3 ugly things A manticore (D:6) A black mamba (Lair:4) A gargoyle (D:12) 3 spiny frogs 3 centaur skeletons 2 rime drakes Prince Ribbit (D:7) 3 blink frogs 7 hippogriffs 32 yaks 4 hogs (D:7) A basilisk (Lair:3) A human (D:7) 2 hungry ghosts 7 water moccasins 8 porcupines A hornet zombie (D:10) 13 orc warriors 4 ice beasts 3 necrophages A sky beast (D:9) A phantom (D:4) 2 black bears (D:7) 8 ogres 6 centaurs 4 wolves (Lair:1) 6 crocodiles A big kobold (D:12) 8 bullfrogs 3 scorpions 2 killer bees (D:11) Dowan (D:7) 8 wights 2 crimson imps (D:5) A centaur zombie (D:7) 6 jellies 15 orc wizards 8 orc priests Crazy Yiuf (D:7) A bullfrog skeleton (D:11) 7 hounds 3 iguanas Ijyb (D:3) 10 worker ants A hound zombie (D:7) 2 worker ant zombies 10 adders 3 gnolls A shadow imp (D:7) 2 oozes 2 adder skeletons (D:5) 3 worms A dart slug (D:3) 4 leopard geckos 66 orcs 10 bats 5 giant cockroaches 5 goblins 5 hobgoblins 11 jackals 22 kobolds 4 quokkas 3 frilled lizards 2 quokka zombies 8 rats 382 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills) 2 two-headed ogres 5 orc warriors 2 ogres 2 wights An orc priest (D:10) 3 gnolls 8 orcs 2 goblins (Bailey) A hobgoblin (Bailey) 26 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (others) A rime drake (Lair:4) A blink frog (Lair:1) A hippogriff (Lair:2) 2 yaks 7 dancing weapons 2 water moccasins 2 orc warriors A necrophage (D:7) A centaur (D:11) A wolf (Lair:1) A big kobold (D:10) 2 scorpions 2 crimson imps An iguana (D:7) A worker ant (D:11) A gnoll (D:9) 3 orcs A goblin (Bailey) A quokka (D:7) A withered plant (D:7) 33 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 441 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------+----------+------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | byrel the Spriggan Enchanter began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 9/9 MP: 5/5 491 | D:1 | Reached skill level 4 in Hexes 511 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 13/13 MP: 7/7 515 | D:1 | Learned a level 2 spell: Ensorcelled Hibernation 758 | D:1 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados. 1819 | D:2 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 16/16 MP: 8/8 1939 | D:2 | Learned a level 3 spell: Confuse 2085 | D:2 | Reached skill level 1 in Ice Magic 2534 | D:3 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 3023 | D:3 | Found an opulent altar of Gozag. 3030 | D:3 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 21/21 MP: 11/11 3040 | D:3 | Became a worshipper of Gozag Ym Sagoz the Greedy 3171 | D:3 | Noticed Ijyb 3220 | D:3 | Killed Ijyb 3220 | D:3 | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting 3273 | D:3 | Learned a level 3 spell: Tukima's Dance 3277 | D:3 | Learned a level 3 spell: Dazzling Spray 3282 | D:3 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 24/24 MP: 13/13 3795 | D:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth 3927 | D:4 | Noticed an ogre 3991 | D:4 | Killed an ogre 4110 | D:4 | Noticed a phantom 4128 | D:4 | Killed a phantom 4128 | D:4 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 25/28 MP: 1/15 4279 | D:4 | Found Kaecw's Antique Armour Shop. 4661 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 4769 | D:5 | Noticed an ice beast 4783 | D:5 | Killed an ice beast 4783 | D:5 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 32/32 MP: 7/16 5974 | D:4 | Reached skill level 10 in Stealth 6087 | D:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting 6326 | D:5 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 37/37 MP: 12/17 6696 | D:5 | Found Purokk's Serpentskin Sales. 6873 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Short Blades 6873 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging 7190 | D:6 | Noticed a manticore 7194 | D:6 | Killed a manticore 7301 | D:6 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 38/45 MP: 13/18 7356 | D:6 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet. 7430 | D:6 | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos. 7430 | D:6 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 7431 | D:6 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon. 7874 | D:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Hexes 8156 | D:6 | Reached skill level 6 in Hexes 8587 | D:7 | Reached skill level 7 in Hexes 8720 | D:7 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 8998 | D:7 | Found a runed door. 9075 | D:7 | Noticed Crazy Yiuf 9079 | D:7 | Killed Crazy Yiuf 9402 | D:7 | Noticed Dowan 9407 | D:7 | Noticed Duvessa 9440 | D:7 | Killed Dowan 9726 | D:7 | Noticed Prince Ribbit 9849 | D:7 | Reached skill level 8 in Hexes 9901 | D:7 | Killed Prince Ribbit 9901 | D:7 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 49/49 MP: 14/19 9931 | D:7 | Banished Duvessa 10140 | D:7 | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog. 10417 | D:7 | Reached skill level 9 in Hexes 10855 | D:8 | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh. 11141 | D:8 | Reached skill level 1 in Shields 11314 | D:8 | Found Osmiaq's Assorted Antiques. 11321 | D:8 | Bought a scroll labeled LOWUTZU METI for 18 gold pieces 11613 | D:9 | Found a flagged portal. 11642 | Bailey | Entered a bailey 11843 | Bailey | Got an ancient morningstar 12028 | D:9 | Noticed Joseph 12134 | D:9 | Banished Joseph 12134 | D:9 | Reached skill level 10 in Short Blades 12416 | D:9 | Learned a level 6 spell: Invisibility 12723 | D:10 | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon 13012 | D:10 | Reached XP level 11. HP: 41/54 MP: 20/20 13340 | D:10 | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines. 13479 | D:10 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting 13640 | D:11 | Noticed a brown ugly thing 13789 | D:11 | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos. 13846 | D:11 | Killed a brown ugly thing 13940 | D:11 | Found a staircase to the Lair. 14161 | D:11 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet. 14278 | D:11 | Reached skill level 10 in Hexes 14456 | D:11 | Noticed a purple ugly thing 14738 | D:11 | Noticed a two-headed ogre 14844 | D:11 | Killed a two-headed ogre 14933 | D:11 | Killed a purple ugly thing 15230 | D:11 | Reached skill level 5 in Shields 15575 | D:12 | Noticed a red ugly thing 15575 | D:12 | Noticed a two-headed ogre 15590 | D:12 | Killed a red ugly thing 15908 | D:12 | Reached skill level 11 in Hexes 16178 | D:12 | Noticed a white ugly thing 16819 | D:12 | Killed a two-headed ogre 17314 | Lair:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts 17438 | Lair:1 | Noticed a five-headed hydra 17443 | Lair:1 | Killed a five-headed hydra 17687 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 12 in Hexes 17687 | Lair:1 | Reached XP level 12. HP: 60/60 MP: 15/21 18206 | Lair:1 | Noticed Fannar 18225 | Lair:1 | Killed Fannar 18747 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations 19087 | Lair:2 | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit. 19711 | Lair:3 | Found a staircase to the Shoals. 19745 | Lair:3 | Found a burning altar of Makhleb. 19778 | Lair:3 | Noticed Sonja 19781 | Lair:3 | Killed Sonja 19793 | Lair:3 | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging 20937 | Lair:4 | Got a slimy robe 20938 | Lair:4 | Identified the +1 robe "Juyjuv" {*Corrode +Fly MR- Int+9} | (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts) Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 | ---------------+-------------------------------------+----- Hexes | 4 8 9 12 | 12.8 Spellcasting | 3 4 5 | 5.3 Ice Magic | 1 2 3 | 3.7 Stealth | 7 8 10 | 10.0 Short Blades | 2 3 4 5 8 10 | 10.0 Fighting | 1 4 5 6 | 6.7 Dodging | 4 7 10 | 10.7 Shields | 3 6 7 | 7.3 Evocations | 4 | 4.5 Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Dagger | 116 | 59 | 170 | 710 || 1055 Throw: Stone | 1 | | 1 | || 2 Tomahawk | | | | 1 || 1 Cast: Corona | 6 | | | || 6 Ensorcelled Hiber | 26 | 18 | 79 | 90 || 213 Confuse | | 8 | 23 | 60 || 91 Tukima's Dance | | 2 | 19 | 35 || 56 Dazzling Spray | | | 1 | 1 || 2 Invok: Call Merchant | | | 1 | 2 || 3 Potion Petition | | | | 1 || 1 Evoke: Wand | | | 2 | || 2 Use: Scroll | 3 | 3 | 3 | 20 || 29 Potion | | | | 2 || 2 Stab: Sleeping | 23 | 21 | 41 | 101 || 186 Confused | | 4 | 4 | 23 || 31 Distracted | | | 5 | 9 || 14 Eat: Ration | 1 | 1 | 3 | 8 || 13 Armor: Robe | 18 | 3 | 6 | 26 || 53 Dodge: Dodged | 131 | 35 | 123 | 370 || 659 Block: Buckler | | | | 82 || 82

Sunday, 7th October 2018, 22:58 by Sprucery

Well, personally I love guardian spirit on a spriggan. Low HP good MP + spellcasting aptitude makes it really attractive.

Sunday, 7th October 2018, 23:06 by Siegurt

The easiest way to compare acrobat to the other defensive amulets (though not remotely literally accurate) is percentage wise.

What percent does the amulet of the acrobat add to your total defense (AC+EV+SH) keeping in mind that acrobat is only in effect while you're running away, vs reflection and Guardian Spirit (Where you take guardian spirit to be a percent of your max hps) being helpful more often.

I like to pretend that acrobat is effectively active half of the time (how much it's actually active varies a lot), and I value guardian spirit at about 75% of your MP as a percentage of your total MP+HP for a SpEn (as you tend to have a large balance of MP, a conjurer would tend to use up most of their MP bar to kill things, so it might be down around 30-50%)

So in the case of your dump, I pretend that acrobat is worth:
15/(7+26+10) * (.5) = 17.5%
If I was comparing it to a +5 amulet of reflection I'd call that
5/(7+11+15) = 15.5%
and an amulet of guardian spirit I'd call:
21/(62+21)* (.75) = 18.9%

A lot of the adjustment for how much use you'll see from acrobat and how much MP you'll have to use to defend yourself with, is a judgement call, and varies with play style, and which cases you care about something defending you (if you only care about the "I'm at full hps/mps and just walked around the corner to see something super dangerous" case then obviously you just run the numbers at 100%, similarly, the actual reflection ego I didn't figure in, as the amount of times it does something that would actually be considered a defensive benefit is marginal)

Note that this isn't remotely based on *reality* as the marginal value of a point of EV or SH varies with how much you already have, and changes depending on the type of opponent, and aren't 1:1 with each other or AC. But it's a close enough rough estimate that you'll be in the right general ballpark (in this case, all three amulets are reasonably close to the same defensive benefit)

If you want to know the *actual* numbers to compare them, you'd need to fsim them, but I'm not sure fsim works properly with the amulet of the acrobat. However, I'm pretty confident that if you estimate, and you're wrong, you won't be wrong enough that it will make a significant difference in your win chances (you're much more likely to die to a tactical error than the marginal benefit of optimizing which amulet you're using)

Sunday, 7th October 2018, 23:15 by byrel

That's a really interesting approach. I'll keep it in mind.

I don't really enjoy guardian spirit on non-pure-melee characters, so I'll probably keep acrobat. I think that it tends to kick in in more desperate situations, which is how I would tend to weight my defense analysis.

OTOH, guardian spirit defends against things that don't check SH+EV. So maybe I'll have to switch at some point.

Sunday, 7th October 2018, 23:28 by Siegurt

byrel wrote:That's a really interesting approach. I'll keep it in mind.

I don't really enjoy guardian spirit on non-pure-melee characters, so I'll probably keep acrobat. I think that it tends to kick in in more desperate situations, which is how I would tend to weight my defense analysis.

OTOH, guardian spirit defends against things that don't check SH+EV. So maybe I'll have to switch at some point.

Basically acrobat kicks in if your last action was either . (wait) or a movement action that doesn't cause an attack, the +15 evasion lasts from the end of your last action until the beginning of this one (that's why the evasion number shows in your status area after such an action and disappears if you enter/exit a menu or something)

Sunday, 7th October 2018, 23:58 by byrel

Siegurt wrote:
byrel wrote:That's a really interesting approach. I'll keep it in mind.

I don't really enjoy guardian spirit on non-pure-melee characters, so I'll probably keep acrobat. I think that it tends to kick in in more desperate situations, which is how I would tend to weight my defense analysis.

OTOH, guardian spirit defends against things that don't check SH+EV. So maybe I'll have to switch at some point.

Basically acrobat kicks in if your last action was either . (wait) or a movement action that doesn't cause an attack, the +15 evasion lasts from the end of your last action until the beginning of this one (that's why the evasion number shows in your status area after such an action and disappears if you enter/exit a menu or something)

Yeah, I understand the mechanics. The question I was trying to answer was whether I'll tend to be running or using escape consumables/spells in desperate situations.

Monday, 8th October 2018, 15:31 by Siegurt

byrel wrote:
Siegurt wrote:
byrel wrote:That's a really interesting approach. I'll keep it in mind.

I don't really enjoy guardian spirit on non-pure-melee characters, so I'll probably keep acrobat. I think that it tends to kick in in more desperate situations, which is how I would tend to weight my defense analysis.

OTOH, guardian spirit defends against things that don't check SH+EV. So maybe I'll have to switch at some point.

Basically acrobat kicks in if your last action was either . (wait) or a movement action that doesn't cause an attack, the +15 evasion lasts from the end of your last action until the beginning of this one (that's why the evasion number shows in your status area after such an action and disappears if you enter/exit a menu or something)

Yeah, I understand the mechanics. The question I was trying to answer was whether I'll tend to be running or using escape consumables/spells in desperate situations.

Tough to say, that's why i give it a 50% rating, but really it is very circumstantial, and 50% is pretty arbitrary.

Wednesday, 10th October 2018, 11:42 by Antares

I think it all depends on how often you are moving. I find it good on anyone that uses range attacks primarily: they tend to do a lot of running away (to replenish MP, or for kiting). I guess assassin types would be like that too. Currently I'm plaing a fire mage, and I'd rank this amulet worse than reflection but better than guardian.

On the other hand I don't play spriggan. This amulet gives an EV boost, not an AC or HP boost, which I think would be more useful for you. So I'd rather look for guardian amulet (as Sprucery suggested).

Wednesday, 10th October 2018, 21:26 by tabstorm

Not wearable over reflection, spirit or faith imo.

How good is amulet of the acrobat?

How good is amulet of the acrobat?

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