The Tavern

Imagine you're Op, who found only amulet of regeneration of all jewellery and only a shield of all armour. Would you rather spend acquirement on jewellery or on armour?

Edit: Oh, and let's say weapon is out of question, since I'm going to fight unarmed.

Jewellery because I'd be able to make use of MR, dex, str, ev, ac, a single resist pip, spirit shield, or faith

But really the way the question is structured it would have to be some kind of weird read-id situation early enough in the game that I'd probably go for a weapon or gold and call it a day

armour

jewellery acquirement is really bad when you haven't identified the mediocre ring types yet

weapon is very likely to be a better option than either though

acquiring gold is strictly worse than saving the scroll for later, unless there is an item in a shop right now that you want but can't afford. and saving the scroll is already a terrible idea!

gold acquirement is pretty obviously predicated upon there being a potion or scroll shop somewhere that you haven't emptied yet

I'd go with Jewellery. A shield is good enough to use for a while, and Op usually have a ton of enchant armour scrolls so it'll be easy to make it into a max enchanted one, so armour is out of the question for me.

It's also possible to get a hat/extremely good artifact shield, but I think the better outcome comes from acquiring jewellery.

Jewelry, with empty slot you are very likely to get +0 hat.

I'd say that with most rings and amulet unidentified a +0 hat - which most likely could be enchanted to +2 right away - would be far far better of the probable outcome of jewellery acq.

I am not sure, I don't see meaningful difference between AC 3 and AC 5.

2 AC is roughly 1 hp lost less for every attack.

The Op in question is most probably in early game, I'd say lair at most - or is the most unfortunate Op ever.
This means his max hp is low - I'd hypothesize 30ish at worst, 90ish at most.

I'd consider therefore 2AC something between 1% and 3% of resistance from almost every attack.

I don't think jewellery acq is going to gift something better - exluding obliovsly spirit shield, ac, ev and slay

Jewelry can give you many items which are better than +2 AC: rPois (really great in Lair), rings of fire/ice/protection from fire/protection from cold (can save life easily), rings of slaying/evasion/protection, amulet of faith/guardian spirit/rage.
Personally I don't use +2 rings of protection even with characters in body armour unless I have empty slot.
Also I am not sure why we are talking about +2 hat, it is +0 hat and we don't have any scrolls of enchant armour because we have already spent them on that shield

rPois is definitely not better than +2 AC in Lair.

duvessa wrote:rPois is definitely not better than +2 AC in Lair.

I am sure you know how poisonous damage from Spiny Frogs and Black Mambas works and how high normal damage they deal so I am really surprised you are saying it.

Spoiler: show

If you are in lair and you feel like you are in control of the general threat level there, I would hang on to the scroll until you clear it as there is a high chance that the elephant slug unique will load, giving you a hat. This boosts the likelihood of getting an artefact hat instead of a +0 mundane hat. Otherwise go for armour anyhow and hope you don't get a garbage shield because acquirement LOOOOVES shields and loves garbage.. Jewelry isn't as important as getting some more ac and as mentioned there is a very high chance you get a "meh" item, but you have the upside that you can use pretty much anything you do get from it as an OP for quite some time.

It's spoilery and tedious behavior, that having seen a +0 mundane hat will prevent acquirement from giving you a new one. It also ruins the thrill and theme of the scroll. Acquirement shouldn't give mundane items, period. If the character hasn't seen a hat yet, give them a fucking magic hat.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
duvessa wrote:rPois is definitely not better than +2 AC in Lair.

I am sure you know how poisonous damage from Spiny Frogs and Black Mambas works and how high normal damage they deal so I am really surprised you are saying it.

A fun game: let's try to predict the answer of Minmay / Duvessa!

I'll start:

Spoiler: show

First I wanted to fsim that situation when I have a chance but then I recalled that I already have something about "AC is overestimated" in my signature so I won't bother

rPois can change some fights from "sure death" to "sure win" (Killer Bees pack in a corridor, for instance) while AC+2 is not a big deal no matter if you are Op with basic AC or high level Gr in CPA.

To be fair, this Op has an amulet of regen, which in my experience greatly decreases that 14-28 poison damage. Also, 1 potion of curing after you killed the monster can also substantially reduce the poison damage, but not the base damage.

I, personally, have no idea how to evaluate which is more useful, since neither seems so strong to me.

I am sure amulet of regen won't change anything here, saving a single point of damage from extra AC is still worse than evading 14 damage (average of 14-28 is about 21 and we have 66% chance to avoid it), by the time you are able to cure damage you have already lost more than 1 HP to poison.
To be fair that amulet of regen makes +2 AC less useful vs almost all non-poisonous Lair monsters too (except Blink Frogs because they are fast and you cannot pillar-dance as easily).

Removed.

I would go for books if I have Transmutations or Earth as my highest spell skill and haven't found statue form yet. Or gold if statue form is in a store.

I doubt I would train unarmed on an octopode without going for transmutations at some point, though.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I am sure amulet of regen won't change anything here

I do not get it. Is this poison damage immediate? Because I thought that it is just damage over time, which is prevented by the amulet because you regen faster. Unless you have severe, red poison, but to get that from frogs you probably got too many normal damage anyway. Damage over time is always less than it looks, because you also have some natural regeneration to counter it.

Correct me please, these was just my observations, I could be wrong. And the poison damage is very dangerous if you do not have any curing, that's true, so in that case, I would definitely choose poison resistance.

VeryAngryFelid wrote: (except Blink Frogs because they are fast and you cannot pillar-dance as easily).

Wolf are fast, non poisonous and somewhat dangerous also. Porcupines are also fast I think. And spriggans.

I do not know too many dangerous enemies in Lair where pillar dancing with the regen amulet would work. WIth yaks and elephants, maybe, if somehow you are too weak to kill them without it, but I usually did not find them that dangerous.

sanka wrote:I do not get it. Is this poison damage immediate? Because I thought that it is just damage over time, which is prevented by the amulet because you regen faster. Unless you have severe, red poison, but to get that from frogs you probably got too many normal damage anyway. Damage over time is always less than it looks, because you also have some natural regeneration to counter it.

It does not matter when we want to compare AC+2 and rPois. Amulet of regen restores about 0.5 HP per turn and poison will deal more than that, and more importantly it will deal more than 1 HP damage overall so AC+2 which saves us 1 HP on average is still worse.
For instance, my last online loss to poison:

Code:: You feel very sick. Huge Dmg: -5%(-2hp) hp: 17%(7hp) Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit) It was a potion of lignification. You turn into a tree. You feel sick. You feel sick. Huge Dmg: -3%(-2hp) hp: 10%(6hp) You feel sick. Damage: -2%(-1hp) hp: 8%(5hp) You feel sick. Huge Dmg: -3%(-2hp) hp: 5%(3hp) You feel sick. Sigmund shouts! Sigmund gestures at you while chanting. The magic dart hits you! Huge Dmg: -1%(-1hp) hp: 4%(2hp) You feel sick. Huge Dmg: -2%(-1hp) hp: 2%(1hp)

It was on D:5 so character had only 42 HP and still was able to get to "lethally poisoned (0 -> -13)".
There is one consideration which makes AC more useful than it initially looked to me because poisoning is not applied if you get no damage but still the chance of those extra 2 AC decreasing damage to zero is still much less than 66% which is what rPois does.

Aside from the fact that curing negates poison, spiny frogs and black mambas are not the only monsters in Lair. And the chance of getting rPois from jewellery acquirement is tiny anyway.

sanka wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote: (except Blink Frogs because they are fast and you cannot pillar-dance as easily).

Wolf are fast, non poisonous and somewhat dangerous also. Porcupines are also fast I think. And spriggans.

I do not know too many dangerous enemies in Lair where pillar dancing with the regen amulet would work. WIth yaks and elephants, maybe, if somehow you are too weak to kill them without it, but I usually did not find them that dangerous.

Do you remember we are talking about Op here? I would be surprised if somehow Elephant and Yak packs were not dangerous.

Come one, saving 1 HP is neglictable unless you are on D:1. Saving 14-28 damage is not, even in Snake and Spider.

a hat is probably more value short-term if you enchant it to +2, I don't think it's likely for you to get a ring that will offer that much value for you in lair unless its ac/ev>+2, slay, or rpois. It's probably close enough that it won't affect whether you die or not all that much.

Seems like it's pretty important to know whether you already have enchant armour scrolls or not. A +0 hat does nothing and there's no guarantee you'll find enchant armour scrolls on the next few levels. I would assume that it's more likely you'll get an even marginally useful ring/amulet than an enchanted hat.

It would be nice to know what is the chance of acquiring a +0 (or negatively enchanted) hat for a hatless octopode... More or less than 50%?

Less. That said, you may still get a randart with bad enchantment, for either slot. On the other hand, the ring you'll get will most likely be only of minimal utility, like stealth, rN+ or rCorr, and the chance of getting gourmand or harm are also non-zero. I'd get armour in this scenario.

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