Ancient lich on Vaults:4 - advice?

[Yasob]

So I just ran into my first ancient lich (ever - I've never gotten this far before), on Vaults:4. It's got a 27 % chance to banish or paralyze me. I can smite it to death but I guess that'll take about 3 turns. Maybe use two turns to back around the corner, recall a few more orcish warlords (to handle any paralyzation), quaff a potion of haste and then start smiting it? Any other ideas? I'm not confident in my ability to survive the Abyss...

Pastebin character dump.

HOFi-Vaults4-ancient-lich-cutout.png (105.73 KiB) Viewed 12950 times

I've found very few usable MR items so I only have MR++. I haven't had any problems handling physical damage yet though what with the +6 plate armour of Card Tricks {rElec}, +2 shield {AC+3}, and +4 amulet of reflection.

[sanka]

It cannot paralyse or banish you if it does not have LOF. You can hide behind your orcs and smite it, for example. (Although it may paralyse of banish your orcs, then.)

[Berder]

You can also read Silence once it is close or use a throwing net on it (once it is close) which will stop it from casting.

[Yasob]

Thanks, I didn't realise those spells require LOF! That makes things so much easier. I'd rather risk an orc or two than myself, I guess.

Unfortunately I don't have any scrolls of Silence; I do have throwing nets though. But I think that ancient lich is already "too close for my liking".

Now if only Underhound (or is it better called CUE?) webtiles would come to life again...

[duvessa]

Throwing nets do not stop monsters (or players) from casting.

It will probably take more than 3 smites to kill it, btw.

[Yasob]

I also realised while reading another thread here that Silence would probably kill my ability to smite as well?

And a more general question: would it be a good idea to exchange my +3 war axe of freezing for a +1 vampiric broad axe (and maybe spend my two enchant weapon scrolls to get it to +3)?

[Berder]

Throwing nets do not stop monsters (or players) from casting.

As a matter of fact, they do. It is not perfect protection but they will spend many turns struggling against the net instead of casting. Sometimes they will still cast when netted, but usually not. It is a good plan, for this reason, to net an ancient lich before meleeing it if you want the additional safety.

I also realised while reading another thread here that Silence would probably kill my ability to smite as well?

Yes, but it's not really a concern since the ancient lich is almost helpless while silenced. Cancellation will stop silence if you really need to do something else. The bigger concern is how many silences you have left, and whether other monsters will bother you while silenced (and whether you have Cancellation in case that is a problem).

[Sprucery]

And a more general question: would it be a good idea to exchange my +3 war axe of freezing for a +1 vampiric broad axe (and maybe spend my two enchant weapon scrolls to get it to +3)?

Yes.

Berder: if you tell someone that nets stop liches from casting, and they then go on and net a lich, and the next turn get a crystal spear in the face or get banished/paralysed, they might think that your advice was not quite accurate.

I mean, yes, it is useful to use throwing nets against a lich, but it does not stop them from casting. It makes them cast less often.

[duvessa]

It does cause the monster to lose an amount of energy equal to the better of their move/swim speeds each turn, yes, so in the case of an ancient lich, the net will "steal a turn" from them after every time they cast - but not when they would have moved or done a melee/ranged attack, since the net prevents it from using energy on those.
Since ancient liches (and regular liches) choose to cast instead of moving on 30% of their turns, the net is only making it cast 15% less often. This is not very good, since it takes one of your turns to throw the net, and it will likely destroy the net before you break even. Throwing nets can be useful on ancient liches to stop them from moving but they're not good at stopping them from casting.

(The net also gives the monster a 1/15 chance each action of trying to cast Blink or Teleport Other if they have one of them and can see something hostile to them. It will also make them read scrolls of blinking or teleportation. Fortunately liches don't have Blink or Teleport Other so I don't need to include that in the casting frequency calculation.)

[Rast]

Nets also give you some extra damage from netstabbing, even with axes or whatever.

Normally I would suggest popping sack of spiders and letting them beat the lich, but with your 0 evocations that might not work so well. So just walk or teleport away and fight him some other time.

War axe in vaults is a joke. Go get that +1 vampiric broad axe from Lair, dump all your EW scrolls into it, and use that for the rest of the game.

Also put some points in dodging.

[Berder]

It does cause the monster to lose an amount of energy equal to the better of their move/swim speeds each turn, yes, so in the case of an ancient lich, the net will "steal a turn" from them after every time they cast - but not when they would have moved or done a melee/ranged attack, since the net prevents it from using energy on those.
Since ancient liches (and regular liches) choose to cast instead of moving on 30% of their turns, the net is only making it cast 15% less often. This is not very good, since it takes one of your turns to throw the net, and it will likely destroy the net before you break even. Throwing nets can be useful on ancient liches to stop them from moving but they're not good at stopping them from casting.

If this is an accurate description and I'm understanding you correctly, it is better than a 15% reduction in cast rate would make it appear, because it substantially reduces the lich's ability to cast several spells in a row - this is what kills you. If it would have cast LCS, LCS, LCS, now instead it (struggles), casts LCS, (struggles) casts LCS, (struggles), casts LCS. So it reduces the severity of unlucky strings of casting by 50%, which makes them substantially less dangerous. It's never the average case that kills you, it's the extreme unlucky case.

In addition to that, the netted lich has lower EV and you can get stabbing damage against it, so it dies faster.

The takeaway from all this is that netting ancient liches before fighting them in melee makes them way less dangerous. This is what my experience tells me.

[duvessa]

Oh, didn't realize you were suggesting to actually fight it in melee lol. Yeah it can be worth it for the netstabbing bonus.

[Yasob]

Lots of ways to handle an ancient lich apparently, which is nice. Thank you for your ideas and clarifications! I will update you once I have had a chance to fight it.

Regarding my weapons: there seems to be a consensus that a +3 vampiric broad axe is (much) better than a +3 war axe of freezing. Is it the vampiric brand that makes it more desirable? Damage-wise, against non-resistant monsters, and if I understand the workings correctly, the war axe should be much better: (base damage 11 + enchantment 3)×1.5 cold bonus = 21. While the broad axe is (13+3) = 16. Am I missing something?

[VeryAngryFelid]

Average freezing bonus is 25% (after AC reduction), also weapon enchantment is not part of base damage.
See http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Weapon_damage for details. Also yes, vampiric brand is amazing for characters with high AC/EV.

[bel]

Broad axes are better than war axes (once you have sufficient Axes skill). You can't really calculate damage the way you're doing it: the formula is much more complex. If in doubt, use fsim.

In general, vampiric broad axes are pretty good. Wield it and dump all your enchants into it.

[Yasob]

@VeryAngryFelid: Great link, thanks! I think the highlights are these:

• [A]t very low skill levels, the value of base damage and enchantment is approximately the same, but for skilled characters base damage is much more important than enchantment.
• Weapon brands that use multiplicative bonuses, calculate the additional amount of damage as a percentage of the damage described in this page (including AC damage reduction). This additional amount of damage ignores AC, but it can be affected by resistances or vulnerabilities.

The base damage (plus a normally distributed strength bonus) is multiplied by Weapon skill and Fighting skill modifiers, which are both normally distributed. I made a quick attempt to figure out how to calculate the mean of the product of two normal distributions (to get an idea of how it compares to the slaying bonus of which enchantment is a part), but I could only figure out that the resulting probability density function is -log(z) before my math failed me. Maybe I'll continue digging at some point.

Anyway, the way I understood damage calculation was quite wrong and I understand it better now. Thanks!

[Yasob]

Phew, I survived, and the lich and its band are all dead. But it cost me: a potion of haste, a potion of might, my last two potions of heal wounds, a pip of piety (six smites!), and an orc warrior. Except the lich there were, among other things, a titan and an ettin (all three "sheltered from injuries", by the ironheart preservers I guess?). Oh and I also used smite on a vault sentinel that showed up since I really didn't want to get marked at the time.

Now I'm off to pick up that vampiric broad axe.

[Rast]

You know you can just walk or teleport away from monsters instead of fighting them.

[Airwolf]

@VeryAngryFelid: Great link, thanks! I think the highlights are these:

• [A]t very low skill levels, the value of base damage and enchantment is approximately the same, but for skilled characters base damage is much more important than enchantment.
• Weapon brands that use multiplicative bonuses, calculate the additional amount of damage as a percentage of the damage described in this page (including AC damage reduction). This additional amount of damage ignores AC, but it can be affected by resistances or vulnerabilities.

The base damage (plus a normally distributed strength bonus) is multiplied by Weapon skill and Fighting skill modifiers, which are both normally distributed. I made a quick attempt to figure out how to calculate the mean of the product of two normal distributions (to get an idea of how it compares to the slaying bonus of which enchantment is a part), but I could only figure out that the resulting probability density function is -log(z) before my math failed me. Maybe I'll continue digging at some point.

Anyway, the way I understood damage calculation was quite wrong and I understand it better now. Thanks!

Sampling is the easier way to get that mean...

[Yasob]

You know you can just walk or teleport away from monsters instead of fighting them.

Yes, I know.

- I could have walked away, but then I think all three orcs would have died (I'm not sure how fast an ancient lich is, but I doubt there would have been time for the multiple "retreat" calls needed to keep them alive while fleeing).

- I could have teleported and then recalled my orcs. But who knows where I'd have ended up? Much of the level was still unexplored. And this is my first visit to the Vaults ever so I'm not familiar with it/don't know what to expect. And yes, I cold have teleported again, but it still felt like a gamble that was more desperate than the situation I was in.

Also, I'm starting to get a bit worried about my resistances - that is, where would I have gone instead? This is what I have explored so far:

  Code:

Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:5            Lair (6/6) D:10
  Swamp (4/4) Lair:3       Spider (4/4) Lair:3        Slime (0/5) Lair:6
    Orc (2/2) D:10            Elf (0/3) Orc:2        Vaults (4/5) D:14
  Crypt (0/3) Vaults:2     Depths (0/5) D:15       

And this is what I have found that gives MR, rN, rF, and rC:

  Code:

(carried) a ring of protection from magic
[Lair:2] the +0 scale mail "Reingaiq" {rC++ MR+ Stlth-}

[D:11] the ring of the Butterfly {Ice *Drain rPois rN+ Slay+2} (432 gold)

(carried) an uncursed ring of protection from fire
[Vaults:2] a +2 scale mail of fire resistance
[D:10] +0 fire dragon scales
[Lair:5] a ring of fire

(carried) a ring of protection from cold
(carried) an uncursed ring of protection from cold
[Vaults:4] +0 ice dragon scales (3 further duplicates)
[Vaults:2] a +2 ring mail of cold resistance
[D:5] a +1 scale mail of cold resistance


So I have rElec (from my "+6 plate armour of Card Tricks"), one pip of MR that I'm not sure where it comes from, and a choice of two from an extra pip of rF, rC, and MR, and that's pretty much it. I usually keep the MR+ ring on and switch between rF and rC as needed.

(Hmm, maybe I should ID the two glowing maces that's still lying around in Vaults in case they are amazing somehow...)

Actually, since clearing Vaults:4 didn't improve the resistance situation, I still don't know where to go next. Vaults:5 or Depths, I guess?

[svendre]

That looks like a motley pile. Personally, I would probably wear the rElec plate, one MR+ ring and whatever for the third ring (none of them are great) and clear elves looking for better loot. MR++ might be slightly more risky for getting banished but I don't think it's very bad. The elves that can banish you will also die quickly. They should die quickly, because they also put out damage that can hurt so your exposure to banish shouldn't be very long anyways. Pack some immolate scrolls, quaff an assortment of buffs and get them all piled up at the vault entrance on elf:3. Take your time. It's easier with practice, but you've got to start sometime.

Depths is another option, but I think it can get much worse than elves and doesn't have such large piles of gear guaranteed so soon. I would wait on vault5 until you can comfortably clear elves and at least some depths. The best thing you have going for you for these areas is the vampiric axe. With enough ability, it can sustain you through nearly anything until the extended game.

[Yasob]

With MR+++ I would feel somewhat comfortable with both Elf and Vaults:5. After looking at Ultraviolent4's Beogh guide Vaults:5 doesn't look impossible (stairdance enemies up to your waiting pack of orcs, smiting any vault wardens that might lock the stairs) - the big problem there is getting paralysed on the stairs.

The problem with Elf is of course banishment (I have quite a few orc warlords to bring with me for handling getting paralysed) - but I guess banishment from Elf is better than getting paralysed and slaughtered on the steps in Vaults:5 after all.

Depths I don't really know what to expect from, maybe I should look into that some more before deciding.

[Yasob]

So I went for Elven Halls. Floor 1 & 2 went fine (I skipped the dancing weapons fight). Went to level 3 and was banished to the Abyss before I had taken more than a step from the stairs (he had a 17 % chance to succeed).

I'm still alive at the moment, albeit severely drained (seems to be about 25 % of my skills lost) after an encouter with a <something> servitor. At least I killed a bone dragon. And something (don't know what) made me fall deeper into the Abyss, so I'm now at level 4. Teleported away from the servitor and ended up in a small enclosed room. Wand of digging?

[Yasob]

Ha, I survived!

I dug out of the room with the wand and was met by an angry buzzing of wasps and other flying things. Also a wretched star. Went back into the room which made a convenient "kill hole", and after killing a few of the wasps and the star an exit materialised!

I'm still "heavily drained" and I don't really know what to try next... any suggestions?

Edit: Healed up and surrounded by friends.

HOFi-Elf2-survived-abyss.png (422.76 KiB) Viewed 12561 times

[Stonar]

For future reference, you can typically just wait until a random teleport in a trapped room like that. Digging is a fine answer if you have charges, but in case you don't next time, you can just hit 5 a few times and teleport again.

[Airwolf]

Just go kill stuff a bit more cautiously than usual and you'll be fine.

[svendre]

Depths will likely slay your orc warriors more easily than elf3. Vault5 is harder than elf3. Banishment can only happen if they have LOS to you, and with all those meat shields, I think you could fairly easily move so that you avoid direct sight when needed. As you've seen it's possible to survive abyss, and when you do so, you also get stronger gaining xp. If you pull off clearing elf3, you'll likely see a large bump in power if you find some good loot. Your orcs can slay those elves pretty quickly. If you need to play it more safe, park the orcs on the stairs above in elf2, put them in guard mode, then just pull a few elves at a time to the stairs, then up.

[Yasob]

It seems the staircase I first used to get to Elf:3 was right at the mouth to the end vault, which explains why things got a bit out of hand, I guess. For my second go at it I used another staircase and read a scroll of magic mapping to get my bearings:

HOFi-Elf3-magic-mapping.png (2.36 KiB) Viewed 12442 times

After that I've been able to clear most of Elf:3 without major difficulties. I'm now standing at the mouth of the end vault and will try to lure out more elves by shouting a bit.

So far no MR+ items, but after the end vault entrance fights I found a ring "Qargh" {rF++ rN+ EV+3 Dex+2}, so now I have a pip of rN and two pips of rF, which is nice.

[Yasob]

Not a single MR+ item in all of Elven halls...

I did find some nice things:

* the +9 fustibalus of Saduypuc {flame, rF++}. (I have 8.2 sling skill - too bad the vampiric broad axe costs food to equip!)
* a scroll of aquirement (What should I wish for? It favours unrecognised items, right? So I don't think it's a good idea to ask for jewellery - there're lots of rather useless amulets I haven't seen yet, including simple rPois rings! I've seen all armour types... so maybe ask for armour and hope for some useful artifact?)

I also found 5(!) sacks of spiders and 2 phials of flood. I'm not sure how useful these are? My evocations skill is 7.9.

[Sprucery]

Post a character dump to get more precise advice for acquirement. Sacks of spiders are some of the best regular items in the game. Phial is useful too, but you only need (and can use) one. They get better the more evo you train.

[Yasob]

Sure, here is the dump.

How much evo do I need to make the phial and sacks useful in Depths? I know I tried a sack of spider earlier in the game and it didn't really do much, I think I got two spiders who died pretty much instantly. But that was probably at 0 evo...

[svendre]

Sure, here is the dump.

How much evo do I need to make the phial and sacks useful in Depths? I know I tried a sack of spider earlier in the game and it didn't really do much, I think I got two spiders who died pretty much instantly. But that was probably at 0 evo...

You can bring evo up to 9 skill fairly easily for a lot of extra effect, if that isn't enough, perhaps 12. Past that, I would wait until you are routinely killing monsters with much higher xp to bother taking it higher (assuming you're doing extended). This isn't a mathematically calculated sweet spot, the last time I think I heard one quoted it was level 10.

I took a look at your dump file. You have a good vamp axe, so I wouldn't wish for a weapon. There are several armour slots that are unbranded and you could also get an artefact. You should ideally patch your rC+ and rPois at some point. I would suggest you aquire armour. Your MR+ ring is pretty bad for the long run, so hopefully you can get MR somewhere else, or find a ring with more than just MR. My second choice might be to aquire for jewelry and hope you get an arefact amulet or a better second ring, but I doubt you will... so stick to armour acquirement.

[Sprucery]

I would acquire armour as well. I don't think there's any sweet spot for Evo, with 10+ skill the evokables are certainly quite good. Just train it every now and then when the cost seems appropriate compared to whatever other skill you might train.

[sanka]

If this is an accurate description and I'm understanding you correctly, it is better than a 15% reduction in cast rate would make it appear, because it substantially reduces the lich's ability to cast several spells in a row - this is what kills you. If it would have cast LCS, LCS, LCS, now instead it (struggles), casts LCS, (struggles) casts LCS, (struggles), casts LCS. So it reduces the severity of unlucky strings of casting by 50%, which makes them substantially less dangerous. It's never the average case that kills you, it's the extreme unlucky case.

Note: this advice is from a non-streaker, a much worse player than Berder.

I do not feel that the dangerous case for a lich is LCS/LCS/LCS, because I would not fight it without an option to break LOF (or, even better, LOS) immediately if things go wrong (for example a blink scroll), so I would blink/hide etc. immediately after the first hit. Instead, I fear ancient liches because they can paralyse or banish, and that only takes them 1 cast, where a net does not help as much.

Nets are still very useful against them, if you do not have better options, though.

[svendre]

If this is an accurate description and I'm understanding you correctly, it is better than a 15% reduction in cast rate would make it appear, because it substantially reduces the lich's ability to cast several spells in a row - this is what kills you. If it would have cast LCS, LCS, LCS, now instead it (struggles), casts LCS, (struggles) casts LCS, (struggles), casts LCS. So it reduces the severity of unlucky strings of casting by 50%, which makes them substantially less dangerous. It's never the average case that kills you, it's the extreme unlucky case.

Note: this advice is from a non-streaker, a much worse player than Berder.

I do not feel that the dangerous case for a lich is LCS/LCS/LCS, because I would not fight it without an option to break LOF (or, even better, LOS) immediately if things go wrong (for example a blink scroll), so I would blink/hide etc. immediately after the first hit. Instead, I fear ancient liches because they can paralyse or banish, and that only takes them 1 cast, where a net does not help as much.

Nets are still very useful against them, if you do not have better options, though.

Having escape options (which is always a good idea) does not have any impact on the assessment of whether a pattern of LCS/LCS/LCS or LCS/pause/LCS/pause is more dangerous in attempting to win the fight. It's just a guess, but I'd wager based on what Berder wrote that he would gauge his odds of success with a net (trained) and a blink scroll as being higher than going in with just a blink scroll. Escape options like blink scrolls are valuable, they are almost like felid free lives for many situations. You want to conserve them as muh as you can.

Also, if Berder is a good streaker and a better player than the one he is advising, shouldn't that make his advice more relevant and appropriate in this forum board rather than less? It's my understanding that people come here particularly to ask questions from more experienced players. What is the point in watering down the advice to a new player level?


Having said all that, I generally don't use nets because I don't like to carry them around. I'm aware that it isn't very optimal, particularly for characters that have throwing trained. For the most part, I just bash liches in the face. Running around with low MR is pretty sketchy. Sometimes you can't find it, and it's just too bad, but most of the time you can re-route the path you take through the dungeon to avoid areas where monsters that require MR reside, and that is the best bet overall.

[duvessa]

i think at some point y'all forgot that the net takes a turn to throw, can miss, and gets torn after 4 to 7 turns

[sanka]

i think at some point y'all forgot that the net takes a turn to throw, can miss, and gets torn after 4 to 7 turns

I used nets to get away from the (ancient) lich, sinse I thouth that it will stop it following me for a while and I can break LOS in that time, and retreat to some better terrain. I would honestly take your advice whether it was a good idea in general or not.

[Yasob]

I would acquire armour as well.

I got a pair of +1 "Archery" gloves (+4 Slay for ranged weapons). Oh well, it was a nice try.

[Sprucery]

That's a better-than-average acquirement imo. You have a decent sling and some skill with it...

[Yasob]

Yeah, but it's complicated a bit by my vampiric broad axe which costs food (about 2 rations I think?) each time I equip it. I haven't found any other branded or enchanted broad axes unfortunately. And no brand weapon scrolls.

[Sprucery]

It might be worthwhile to collect all javelins and tomahawks and switch to throwing for ranged. The vamp broad axe is too good to rebrand anyway (at least not before extended if you're going there).

(I guess I forgot all about the food cost for vamp because my current GhAK is freely swapping between vamp, disto and ranged weapons... :) )

[Rast]

Yasob, you are way too late in the game for archery gloves to make any difference in how you skill or what other items you use. Vamp broad axe is a beastly weapon, lean on that hard. Once you find str or dex gloves, switch to those.

That said, if you want some points in Throwing to give you an additional ranged option, that's fine. Evocations is better than Throwing overall, but it's OK to do both.

[njvack]

I could have walked away, but then I think all three orcs would have died (I'm not sure how fast an ancient lich is, but I doubt there would have been time for the multiple "retreat" calls needed to keep them alive while fleeing).

Your orc buddies dying sucks, but your character dying ends your game. Fighting an alich with a band of other high-tier Vaults monsters is... dicey. Sometimes it'll go fine but those guys can stomp pretty hard.

That said, good on you for using the consumables to win the fight.

[Yasob]

Even if the gloves don't make much of a difference, the reminder of the existence of thrown weapons were welcome - I've missed having a ranged weapon since I picked up the vampiric broadaxe. I found a few javelins of penetrations lying around so I picked them up; they will be interesting to try out.

I've cleared Depths:1-2 now. I've had a couple of serious situations when I've had to flee (teleport), but so far I'm still alive. Except for my encounter with the ancient lich in Vaults, Depths feels considerably more dangerous!

[Yasob]

Character dump.

I haven't had much time to play lately, but now I've cleared all of Depths. I've still found only two MR+ items in the entire game, one of which is a +0 scale mail so not of much use.

So what now? I'm really hesitant to do Vaults 5 with only two pips of MR. What about the Ziggurat? Will that kill me instantly? Maybe I should also do the elven hall of blades in case there's something interesting there...

Edit: If I could find four more scrolls of identify there's also a trove I could enter.

[svendre]

Character dump.

I haven't had much time to play lately, but now I've cleared all of Depths. I've still found only two MR+ items in the entire game, one of which is a +0 scale mail so not of much use.

So what now? I'm really hesitant to do Vaults 5 with only two pips of MR. What about the Ziggurat? Will that kill me instantly? Maybe I should also do the elven hall of blades in case there's something interesting there...

Edit: If I could find four more scrolls of identify there's also a trove I could enter.

Don't worry about the MR++, it's okay for vault5. Stack some of your potions at the stairs to buff up, go down to vault5 with your axe, head to the corner that has the most narrow corridor and axe away. Immolation scrolls can be helpful. If things get ugly, use a teleport scroll, you will have already attracted a lot of monsters to the center, so then as an emergency just circle inward gradually from the edges. If you can stairdance successfully, that is fine also.

After you clear vault5, switch to TSO. Clear crypt until you have max piety and make a holy broad axe. You can get rid of the vampiric at this point if you want (you won't be going back to a god that allows it.) Switch to Zin and finish clearing crypt so you'll have max piety with Zin. Next, I would go into the abyss and get the rune, gather enough scrolls for the trove and work off the wrath from beogh. Once you have the abyss rune, exit level 3 (or higher) and finish working off the wrath on level 1.

Once you're done in the abyss, head over to slimes. You can't really cast.. what you'd want is deflect missiles and ignition, so the next best thing really is throwing for the acid blobs. Immolation scroll comes in handy for killing the boss slime. Use vitalization when you see eyeballs or when you need a stat boost, and it'll cover you from having lower MR. Zin will block all the super annoying malmutates.

When you're done with slimes, it's time to clear zot 1-5. There are two main points to doing it now. First, Zin blocks orb malmutates, second the sanctuary ability can save your life if things go very wrong. TSO won't help much with life on kill in there yet, and a lot of the fights are more about defeating hard enemies than getting worn down. Freezing broadaxe if you can find or make one is good for the draconians. When you've cleared zot to whatever level you are comfortable (I do the whole thing usually), you can either win the game or continue on with extended.

If you cotinue, switch from Zin to TSO, now you have hellsx4, tomb and pandemonium to finish. I don't always do those in the same order, it kind of depends on the build. More precise strategies for each of these can be described, but I'm not going into that now - particularly since I don't know if you even want to do all 15 runes this run.

Good luck!


edit: oh yeah, it's fine to clear the vaults in elf2, you might find some useful weapons (freezing, chopping, antimagic) - it's worth a look. The Zig is probably fine for the first several levels and you might get lucky and find some loot. I would not suggest you venture deep into one (or really at all to be safe) with this character, at this point in time at least. You need a much more well rounded character to survive the Zig, one preferably that is a fairly strong hybrid and setup with specific spells, gods, etc.

[Sprucery]

If you just want a 3-rune (or 4 or 5) win, don't switch gods. You can do Crypt before V:5 if you want.

[Yasob]

Wow, lots of interesting advice there! Thanks svendre!

... and of course I should have told you that I'm a newbie and aiming for a three rune game. Gotta start somewhere! But I will get back to the rune four and rune five advice in a later game, no doubt.

Anyway, emboldened by the advice I went for Vaults:5, and it went well. I stationed three orc warlords at the top of the stairs and stairdanced pretty much everything. I got a scare from an ice giant and a Yaktatur who both must have gotten very good hits on me in the same turn - HP suddenly went from "well above 50 %" (out of 230 or so) to 55 in a single turn! Luckily I had just smitten the Vault warden locking the stairs so I could flee and survived - but it was a close call!

I found no MR+ items (of course ) but I did find lots of identify scrolls in the shops, so now I have more than enough for the Trove! I also found enough enchant weapon scrolls to get my vamp broad axe to +9, and two acquirement scrolls! (One of which is in a store at 936 gold if I remember correctly.) And my very first third rune of course!

So the plan now is the Trove and then figure out what to acquire.

Edit: Oh, and I cleared out the hall of blades before Vaults:5, but didn't really find anything interesting.

[RoGGa]

And my very first third rune of course!

Bravo!

[Yasob]

Heh, so this is a bit embarrassing. I was watching Ultraviolent4's playthrough of Zot as an HOFi and he says that he wants to find a cloak of magic resistance, and I went "Why would you want a cloak, you couldn't possibly want to replace your +12 gold dragon armour with that!!" I mean, isn't a cloak just a different name for a robe...? Hmm, NO, you wear the cloak under (over?) the armour! Doh! And it turns out I had an unidentified +2 cloak of magic resistance lying in Depth:1! AND an unidentified cloak of invisibility in Swamp!

So, I now have this:

  Code:

the +6 plate armour of Card Tricks (worn) {rElec}
a +2 cloak of magic resistance (worn) {MR+}
a ring of protection from magic (right hand) {MR+}
the ring "Qargh" (left hand) {rF++ rN+ EV+3 Dex+2}

rFire ++.
rCold ...
rNeg  +..
rPois .
rElec +
rCorr .
MR    +++..

AC: 43 / EV: 18 / SH: 22


Would you switch to a +0 gold dragon scale for Zot?

  Code:

+0 gold dragon scales {rF+ rC+ rPois}
a +2 cloak of magic resistance (worn) {MR+}
a ring of protection from magic (right hand) {MR+}
the ring "Qargh" (left hand) {rF++ rN+ EV+3 Dex+2}

rFire +++
rCold +..
rNeg  +..
rPois +
rElec .
rCorr .
MR    +++..

AC: 41 / EV: 16 / SH: 22


This would also let me trade two pips of rF, the rN, and quite a bit of evasion for rElec if I need it:

  Code:

+0 gold dragon scales {rF+ rC+ rPois}
a +2 cloak of magic resistance (worn) {MR+}
a ring of protection from magic (right hand) {MR+}
the ring of Muus {Wiz rElec Int+3 Dex-5}

rFire +..
rCold +..
rNeg  ...
rPois +
rElec +
rCorr .
MR    +++..

AC: 41 / EV: 11 / SH: 21


Not sure if rElec is ever worth EV-5, SH-1?

And no, I don't have any enchant armour scrolls unfortunately.