Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 467

Joined: Wednesday, 25th May 2016, 23:37

Post Wednesday, 25th July 2018, 18:23

Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

I have never won a 15 runer with a god besides TSO/Vehumet, but Makhleb also seems fine. How do you deal with the lack of healing for melee characters/lack of MP for blasters? In extended, you are constantly harassed by waves and waves of enemies, hell effects, torment, hellfire, etc, and have a difficult time resting to full, even with regeneration. If you have ashenzari/ru/kiku/gozag, how do you manage to recover after fights? People often say Zin is good, but Zin offers no healing and prevents use of the regeneration spell. With TSO/Makh, extended is pretty safe for a melee character, and blasters blast everything before taking much damage so Vehumet is good, so I have never actually lost a game in extended, but how do you survive with other gods?

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Wednesday, 25th July 2018, 18:59

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

Most gods are just bad in extended. I would also say that most characters are just bad in extended due to the existence of the new Tomb. Ash is good in extended though, not a bad choice for mages who need to gather all the spells to handle Tomb on limited XP. Zin is also good, it gives you an excellent get-out-of-jail-free card in the form of Sanctuary, and the stat bonuses from Vit don't hurt. It may not be easy to recover HP with Zin, a regen amulet will help and you want a lot of rN. Zin still protects you from hell effects somewhat so you get tormented less there.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

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arandomperson12

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 25th July 2018, 20:59

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

arandomperson12 wrote:In extended, you are constantly harassed by waves and waves of enemies, hell effects, torment, hellfire, etc
You're really not. Pan's monster generation rate is faster than what you're used to in Dungeon (rip), but it's still not that fast and most of the stuff that gets generated is harmless trash like ynoxinuls. You can rest in Pan fine even without regeneration/sublimation, and you can obviously rest in Tomb fine as well.
In Hells you don't generally want to rest, but if you lose too much hp on the way to the 7th level you can always just go back to the vestibule and retry (and it will get easier every time since you are clearing out more monsters every time). Monsters created by hell effects can't act right away, so you get some free actions against them which is sufficient to kill fiends/etc. before they do anything really bad.

I see players getting too scared of torment a lot. The thing about torment is that it literally cannot kill you. It's only a big problem when combined with smite or hellfire. So the only place where torment is really scary is Tomb since it's full of monsters that combine it with smiting. (Brimstone Fiends don't appear in huge packs, and if for some reason you have to fight a fiend and a hellion at the same time, you can just kill the hellion immediately).
But Tomb is basically just a big fixed vault, so it's a puzzle with solutions: lure things back on Tomb:1, teleport on Tomb:2, and most importantly, avoid making noise when you can - don't use melee attacks or loud spells in Tomb (especially Tomb:3) unless you have to.

Sublimation of Blood should be enough MP recovery for just about anyone. If you want to throw MP at all the random skeletons in Hells then yeah that won't work, but you should have plenty for killing the monsters you really need to.

Zin does block necromancy, and blocking necromancy is pretty bad (that's the reason I think TSO is extremely overrated). The thing is, Sanctuary is so completely insane that makes Zin the best god in the game at full piety anyway. It's effective invulnerability that lasts for a long time and can be renewed several times if needed with only a very small 1-turn gap (even DDoor requires you to spend a few turns vulnerable before you can renew it, and DDoor doesn't let you recover a bunch of HP in preparation for that gap), and it doesn't even carry a permanent cost like Borgnjor's.

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stoneychips

Tartarus Sorceror

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Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Wednesday, 25th July 2018, 21:43

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

It is a general rule of safe crawling, to treat being below 50% HP as a dire emergency to be avoided under normal circumstances. If you play this way through the whole game you will die much less frequently.

This helps to explain the danger of torment. Torment may not kill you, but it will knock off large portions of your health so that other things can kill you. Torment can very quickly bring you from full HP to 40 HP, at which point any random attack (hellfire, iron shot, even just lucky melee attacks) is capable of killing you. Torment should certainly be feared and mitigated whenever possible.

Sublimation of blood is OK if you are worshiping Makhleb and casting level 9s on groups of enemies to regain the lost HP immediately. Otherwise, HP is just too valuable to spend for MP. Vehumet provides enough MP in extended, and you can use a Staff of Energy and Amulet of Magic Regeneration to make up the difference.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

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arandomperson12, Leszczynek, VeryAngryFelid

Lair Larrikin

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Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 12:54

Post Thursday, 26th July 2018, 14:01

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

One of my most pleasurable 15 rune Ascensions was an Ogre Warper of Dithmenos, I really like Dithmenos and found him to be fantastic throughout the entire game, and overall he felt more helpful to me in extended than games I've played with Mak/TSO/Veh. Dithmenos does three main things in endgame. 1) Big damage boost from Shadow Mimic. 2) Bleed Smoke is exceptionally powerful when dealing with big damage hits in the end game, you get hit by Torment? You'll usually fart out a large cloud of smoke and cut off line of sight, making it easier to pull back and avoid additional torments / hellfires. This special ability helps a ton in Hells, and is useful throughout the game as it often has the effect of reading a scroll of smoke automatically when you get hit. 3) Boosts stealth by a huge amount letting even not very stealthy characters not wake everything up immediately, the accuracy penalty to enemies also helps stay alive as well.

Kiku is also a very good god in extended. Kiku's delivery service is great in extended, especially with simulacrum (which can and will kill hell lords) and the protection from torment is always welcome. If you like necromutation he can guarantee the necronomicon, although I usually opt for an early pain brand when playing with him. I feel that Kiku is one of the overall stronger end game gods.

The truth is that you can do extended with most gods, some are just better than others. I've done 15 rune runs with Trog and Okawaru as well. You don't need to max optimize your god unless you are planning on doing ziggurats.

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stoneychips

Dungeon Master

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Joined: Thursday, 23rd October 2014, 03:08

Post Thursday, 26th July 2018, 20:51

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

dithmenos also gives shadow form, which notably has torment immunity and makes it convenient to steal runes from specific areas

Snake Sneak

Posts: 129

Joined: Friday, 13th March 2015, 13:33

Post Friday, 27th July 2018, 01:39

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

TSO is notably better than all others, but dith, gozag, oka, usk, ru, ash, kiku are about as good as Mak/veh in extended. Others are less good but still doable. Only fedhas and yred really doesnt offer anything. Your equipment/spells matter more in tryining to do extended anyways.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1146

Joined: Friday, 16th January 2015, 20:20

Post Friday, 27th July 2018, 07:13

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

Zin's Recite is also amazing at high Invocations. And he keeps you from having to micro-manage malmutators.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Friday, 27th July 2018, 19:56

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

These are the most popular gods among high winrate players for 15 rune games:
  Code:
<causative> !lg tenpercenters urune=15 s=god
<Sequell> 2296 games for tenpercenters (urune=15): 473x The Shining One, 265x Makhleb, 172x Vehumet, 157x Ashenzari, 127x Zin, 119x Sif Muna, 118x Okawaru, 106x Cheibriados, 103x Kikubaaqudgha, 67x Gozag, 61x Trog, 61x Lugonu, 60x Dithmenos, 59x Uskayaw, 58x Xom, 57x, 44x Ru, 35x Nemelex Xobeh, 30x Jiyva, 26x Hepliaklqana, 26x Elyvilon, 21x Qazlal, 14x Fedhas, 11x Wu Jian, 9x Beogh, 8x Pakellas, 8x
<Sequell> Yredelemnul, Wudzu

Yeah, I'd agree Dithmenos is a decent choice. More of my 15 rune games were under dith than any other.
  Code:
<causative> !lg causative urune=15 s=god
<Sequell> 19 games for causative (urune=15): 5x Dithmenos, 4x Sif Muna, 2x Makhleb, 2x Ashenzari, 2x The Shining One, Cheibriados, Ru, Vehumet, Gozag
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Spider Stomper

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Joined: Monday, 3rd April 2017, 11:44

Post Tuesday, 31st July 2018, 15:01

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

I am wondering why Ash would be as valuable as some of the other gods for extended.

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duvessa

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Tuesday, 31st July 2018, 16:38

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

Because Ash is a good choice for mages, and mages are a good choice for extended because they can more easily get the tools they need, such as necromut and cblink.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

For this message the author Berder has received thanks:
Plantissue

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 26

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 12:54

Post Tuesday, 31st July 2018, 21:51

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

That and the extra information Ashenzari provides is really good in the field which people don't often give it enough credit for when considering a min maxed build. Ash gives the player a lot more information about what is around the next corner than any other god. Passive mapping gives you a peak at what the map layout is, and you can sense the number of monsters and generally what threat level they are- it also gives you an idea of whether any monsters are coming around a corner mid fight- so you can know whether you need to think about exiting early.

The passives he gives out are nice as well. See invisible is good, and Clarity is exceptional. Confusion late in the game can be a game ending spell if the player is out or low on curing potions. With Ash you don't need to worry about it.

All of this is before the skill boosting and transferring (which arguably doesn't matter in extended but matters a lot in reaching extended). IMO Ashenzari and Dithmenos are chronically underrated gods.

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2179

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Wednesday, 1st August 2018, 08:04

Re: Extended Gods besides Mak/TSO/Veh?

Passive scryinc and scrying are incredibly OP but I don't think I ever seen a char running low of !curing past mid-game
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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duvessa

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