converting?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 53

Joined: Sunday, 2nd April 2017, 11:16

Post Friday, 16th March 2018, 18:55

converting?

Is it ever advisable to change religions? If so, under what circumstances?

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 771

Joined: Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 02:47

Post Friday, 16th March 2018, 19:21

Re: converting?

Some obvious scenarios:

Are you running a FE that pulled dim at the ecumenical altar?

Are you yred or beough and your army just got wiped out in/post depths?

Are you following a good god and want to follow a different good god?

Did you just give up all your piety to a trove and are thinking about extended?

Additional Comments:
Wrath and it's effects vary greatly according to the god, your character, and its effects. For example: Ash's wrath is pretty awful for some characters and pretty negligible for others. Its a flat -4 to all skills. Now, if you are a broad axe fighter, its easy to put some extra XP into axes and shields as prep, maybe drop down to a buckler instead of a shield for a while. Wrath is a malus but your character still is basically the same but slightly less powerful, and as you put more xp into those skills during wrath you stabilize. If you are a caster taking advantage of Ash's boost to use level 6/7 spells of three/four different schools as your bread and butter to fight off threats, ash wrath takes away your entire kit.

All the gods have some different wrath, and you only learn how to deal with it by abandoning gods. Its often a bad choice, but it becomes less bad the more you do it.

Abandon gods from the ecumenical altar with reckless abandon and see how often wrath snipes you is a good way to learn.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 128

Joined: Friday, 9th March 2018, 20:26

Post Friday, 16th March 2018, 19:50

Re: converting?

A few of the gods' wrath isn't that bad to survive, so you might want to take them for an early power boost and then swap later, especially for someone looking to worship Jiyva lategame. Elyvilon is a perfect example because she's useful early, and won't call down -any- wrath unless you follow one of the 5 evil gods after. Fedhas is nice too.

Most other cases where you want to switch gods are when you're thinking about doing more than three runes. Most godly wrath is pretty survivable by the time you collect 3 runes, and by then there's a lot of cases where you'll want a very different set of god powers than you did in early/midgame. Okawaru gifts you great equipment, but heroism isn't doing much for you anymore... Yred is super strong for most of the game, but almost useless postgame, with mild wrath... etc.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 53

Joined: Sunday, 2nd April 2017, 11:16

Post Friday, 16th March 2018, 20:37

Re: converting?

I was thinking of starting my (long suffering and usually short-lived) Octopode Fighter with Gozag, hanging out until I have a decent weapon and rings, and then going over to Wu Jian. Crazy talk?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Friday, 16th March 2018, 20:51

Re: converting?

It literally never makes sense to abandon Gozag.

The only useful god switches are [Ru or a good god that you found before the god you actually wanted] -> [the god you actually wanted] and Fedhas -> Jiyva.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
nago

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5382

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 16th March 2018, 20:54

Re: converting?

Nah that's pretty reasonable, honestly. The hardest part of Octopode fighter with Gozag for rings is surviving long enough to actually get jewelry shops. Especially when you first two or three call merchants don't offer jewelry at all.

Just wait until an appropriately late point to switch, maybe around level 20 or so, and you'll be fine. I wouldn't expect to call a shop early, get amazing rings, and switch at level 13 or something.

I've done this here, except I transitioned to Cheibriados. http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 100951.txt

Some filtered notes:

Turn | Place | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
0 | D:1 | tasonir the Octopode Monk began the quest for the Orb.
3635 | Temple | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
3711 | Temple | Became a worshipper of Gozag Ym Sagoz the Greedy
10473 | D:7 | Found Qyicsut's Jewellery Shop.
12100 | D:8 | Found Meumosef's Jewellery Emporium.
14946 | D:7 | Bought the ring of Robustness {AC+8} for 1536 gold pieces
26699 | D:7 | Bought the ring of Shaolin {EV+8} for 1536 gold pieces
26843 | D:11 | Identified 3 scrolls of acquirement
26851 | D:11 | Got a crude lapis lazuli ring
26851 | D:11 | Got a glittering golden ring
26853 | D:11 | Identified the ring of Salvation {rF+ Str+4} (You acquired it on level 11 of the Dungeon)
26855 | D:11 | Identified the ring of Obsession {rN+ Str+6 Int+3} (You acquired it on level 11 of the Dungeon)
30231 | Orc:4 | Found Otam's Jewellery Shoppe.
30768 | D:8 | Bought the amulet "Gaugol" {rMut rC+ MR+ Str+3 Stlth+} for 893 gold pieces
37804 | Snake:3 | Found Losuaduo's Jewellery Shop.
37813 | Snake:3 | Bought a +3 ring of protection for 294 gold pieces
37813 | Snake:3 | Bought the ring "Vahutym" {rElec rPois rF+ rC+ Str-3} for 614 gold pieces

etc etc etc. Eventually:

57075 | D:7 | Fell from the grace of Gozag
57075 | D:7 | Became a worshipper of Cheibriados the Contemplative

And finally

93671 | D:$ | Escaped with the Orb! (15 runes)
User avatar

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 838

Joined: Friday, 2nd October 2015, 04:47

Post Friday, 16th March 2018, 21:31

Re: converting?

Trog or Oka are very strong early on but you might want more ranged/special/holy theme abilities later.

Their wrath aren't all that bad if you're a strong melee character with a bit of utility to defend/escape. On a good day, they drop you plenty of nice white items, you buff up and... On a very good day, you're stomping typical mobs so hard that a few more coming out of wrath temporarily won't really phase you. But you still get to keep the items.

You can also hang onto these gods until you have a whopping pile of ammo for ranged weapons (or rocks for ogres/trolls), and then move on too.
Online game stats & morgues
More runes! GnWn (11, 0.21), GhMo^Makh (15, 0.17)
And a Yiuf: (1.4.6, 0.20): ImpGl^Oka (3)

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 276

Joined: Sunday, 6th November 2016, 19:19

Post Friday, 16th March 2018, 21:41

Re: converting?

duvessa wrote:It literally never makes sense to abandon Gozag.

The only useful god switches are [Ru or a good god that you found before the god you actually wanted] -> [the god you actually wanted] and Fedhas -> Jiyva.


Normally I would agree with this, but I've abandoned Gozag before when a OpGl(it was a non-statue meleepode that used summoning.) was running low on rations when I was starting to cast higher level spells, my gold supply was also starting to run pretty low, and it didn't make sense to keep continuing to spend 'piety' to alleviate an issue caused by my own god.

It's a bit of an edge case but a low-INT caster of gozag can struggle enough that it would make sense to just switch to a different god. It may not be a strictly optimal choice, but it's a good one to make just for the quality-of-life it provides.

However, I wouldn't switch from Gozag -> Wu Jian though, as the OP suggests, that switch seems a bit too silly. (From the 'How do I win this run efficiently and with minimal risk?' perspective.)

I've done a Gozag -> Makhleb lategame switch on this guy:
https://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/V ... 232941.txt

and a Yred -> Makhleb on another Op (Yred forbids statue for some reason, would have just stayed with him normally.):
https://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/V ... 153040.txt

(Lmao, jut noticed that I only ever seem to do unconventional god switches on octopodes. That's strange :lol: .)
16/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm, OpSk

Blades Runner

Posts: 616

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Friday, 16th March 2018, 22:03

Re: converting?

mollymolluskus wrote:Is it ever advisable to change religions? If so, under what circumstances?


Yes, but the second half of the question is too vague. There are too many conditions to list why and when it may make sense. For 15 rune games, I tend to like to start with either Gozag or Okawaru for the initial gains to gear and spells, then mid-game to Zin for abyss/slimes/zot, then finally close with TSO for tomb, hells and Pandemonium. Alternately end with Mahkleb (instead of Zin+TSO) if you want to use necromancy (primarily for sublimate and/or necromutate) or you have an excellent weapon which requires neutrality. The jist is that the best end-game gods don't give you as much benefit when your skills are low, and the gods that boost your gear early on help you decide which way to develop your character, then become less helpful once you have a good set of gear already. This is by no means a comprehensive guide though, as I said initially.. the details of the game matter quite a bit.

Opening:
Trog - will give weapons.. it's pretty good but not my favorite.
Oka - gifts ammo, weapons and armour.. pretty darn good choice for almost everything
Gozag - pretty darn good. Buy all the good gear and spells you can find in shops first. Open shops with the remaining gold until they become too expensive. At least one free set of potions. Eventually you're left with levels with no chance of finding a shops, and the cost of opening merchants goes up very high. Finally you could just obtain all the gear/spells you want to feel confident you can finish the game. This when gozag becomes less attractive. Food could also become an issue, but this is probably one of the lesser reasons because there is quite a bit of food in the game currently and some spellcasting and basic management should suffice even for spellcasters.

Now there are lots of other gods to choose from but very few others will make you stronger above and beyond what you'll find laying in the dungeon already, they will just help you progress further until one of the end-game gods become more relevant. Kiku will pain brand or give necronomicon, TSO will holy brand, Vehumet "maybe" a spell or two you want, Lugonu corrupt level...and brand weapon (meh), but that's about all the persistent benefits I can recall. What I mean by persistent benefit is that you gain something you can keep, even after you aren't with that god anymore.

Abyss is a good place to ditch god wrath. Be sure to train blink and a little bit of translocations.

Ending:
With Mahkleb, you gain life from kills and mana from sublimation when alive, and channeling when lichform. Protected from muts and torment in lichform.
With Zin, gain mana from divine vigor + crystal ball, you're protected from muts. You have poor life gain, torment sucks but you have sanctuary as an oh-sht button.
With TSO, you gain life and mana on kills, and that's practically everything late game. Torment isn't great but manageable by using AOE tactics when your life gets low. The biggest downside is that you have to watch mutations but you can holy blast stuff out of LOS and use angels as malmutate blockers. Mostly it's one pan level with the rune to worry about muts, but by the time you're getting that rune, you don't have much left in the game anyhow. If you went with Zin mid-game, then you have a stack of mutation potions saved up to counter stuff while with TSO, so it's mostly just annoyance rather than real threatening. Also, TSO is so extremely strong for extended so you can probably deal with a poor set of muts anyhow.
Kiku, worth noting for his mummy curse protection and taking the edge off torment while still being able to sublimate.

I'd probably like using more variety of gods, especially for end-game, but:
* Torment
* Taking damage from mummy curses (super annoying mechanic)
* Mutations
* Other misc. damage you can't easily avoid (hellfire, smite targeted damage, etc. etc.)

Return to Dungeon Crawling Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.