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It was a *long* time ago. The tricks were all moving and positioning... basically pillar dancing variants, maybe with some summons.

duvessa wrote:I wasn't aware that "does not care about skilling" meant "intentionally skill badly". I suspect that you won't find any winning nagas of Chei that intentionally positioned badly all game, either.

Positioning badly all game long is certainly going to get you killed at some point.

But if I can step back and give a big picture overview, I think the conversation went something like this:

Noise management is a key skill required to win.
Counter: Noise management isn't that critical; skilling is more important.

A player with poor noise management or who doesn't know how noise works can still win, a character who didn't train relevant skills throughout the whole game won't.

Win with poor noise management: Any Qaz character, or play a character who isn't super noisy - I'm thinking any pure melee build here won't really make enough noise to be unwinnable.

Win with no skill training: This can be taken two ways: 1) Either don't make any intelligent skill training, or 2) intentionally force the player to train something with no benefit to them. #1 is very winnable - leave on auto skill training, and it isn't optimal but it's good enough. Or play a gnoll. #2 is the one I would argue is unwinnable - if you only every train a skill that you aren't using I don't think it's really practical to win. But this is somewhat of a contrived example, even if you have no idea the skill system exists, you're just going to be on auto training, and auto training isn't nearly as bad as training only stealth/evocations on a character who isn't using those skills.

In summary I'd agree skilling is more important than noise management, but also that autoskilling or gnolls are strong enough to handle the skill training system if you didn't understand it. I think noise only really matters when it's >15 noise or so - loud enough to reach out of LOS and bring in several more monsters. Noise of <10 doesn't really change an ongoing fight very much.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
njvack wrote:I remember spectating a game once where the player entered an ice cave and there were a ton of ice beasts and the player did some weird movement tricks to kill all of them 1v1 when I would have immediately bailed and I realized I was just completely hopeless at the game.

And now I am really interested to know what trick it was... As far as I remember the vault, at least 2 ice beasts are visible from any tile. Lots of stealth and throwing a stone to wake up just a single ice beast?

I probably just exploited monster swapping

tasonir wrote:Positioning badly all game long is certainly going to get you killed at some point.

LOL it remembered me my first win when I meleed 7 or 8 orb guardians at the same time and guys in the chat shouted at me "what the heck are you doing?!", but nethertheless I lived because I was MiBe with axe.

ololoev wrote:LOL it remembered me my first win when I meleed 7 or 8 orb guardians at the same time and guys in the chat shouted at me "what the heck are you doing?!", but nethertheless I lived because I was MiBe with axe.

I wonder what those guys were suggesting. Run away allowing the faster orb guardians get multiple free attacks? Teleport on Zot 5? I mean I find nothing wrong with using axe as axe i.e. fighting multiple monsters at once when you have no choice.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I wonder what those guys were suggesting.

Probably "not getting into a situation where you fight 7 or 8 orb guardians at once" :)

Sprucery wrote:Probably "not getting into a situation where you fight 7 or 8 orb guardians at once"

Well, then those guys should be talking like "Don't move forward to those orb guardians, retreat instead", not "Don't fight when you are surrounded"

Edit. By the way I find new Zot extremely hard with slow teleport and draconian shifters, it is quite easy to get surrounded by 8 monsters even if you explore manually trying to stay near walls.

I would assume that "what the heck are you doing" referred to recklessly moving towards enemies to fight them. But I wasn't there so I don't know.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:By the way I find new Zot extremely hard with slow teleport and draconian shifters

I wouldn't call it "extremely hard", just a bit harder than before.

Sprucery wrote:I wouldn't call it "extremely hard", just a bit harder than before.

Previously I might use scroll of blinking to get out of LoS of shifter and dig a killhole, now I can do nothing except hope for luck, especially if there is a moth of wrath also.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
ololoev wrote:LOL it remembered me my first win when I meleed 7 or 8 orb guardians at the same time and guys in the chat shouted at me "what the heck are you doing?!", but nethertheless I lived because I was MiBe with axe.

I wonder what those guys were suggesting. Run away allowing the faster orb guardians get multiple free attacks? Teleport on Zot 5? I mean I find nothing wrong with using axe as axe i.e. fighting multiple monsters at once when you have no choice.

These guys was right because I could just move 3-4 steps backward before battle that will reduce battle noise that comes from me to unexplored territory. If I act in that manner, I could get 1-2 more guardians to the battle instead of 4-6. These times I rushed into combat with shouts "ololo one moe monster to kill!", just if I wield the obsidian axe.

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Re: Why most people get 0-2 runes of Zot

Re: Why most people get 0-2 runes of Zot

Re: Why most people get 0-2 runes of Zot

Re: Why most people get 0-2 runes of Zot

Re: Why most people get 0-2 runes of Zot