Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud


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Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1822

Joined: Thursday, 31st May 2012, 15:45

Post Thursday, 1st March 2018, 02:29

Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

I have a GnNe which is the farthest I've gotten a Ne since 0.21 introduced Vile Clutch. About to enter Depths, I'm beginning to wonder whether Vile Clutch is beginning to taper off in effectiveness. Because I'm Gn, I can swap it for Freezing Cloud. Both are AOE damage-over-time. My Nec is higher because of my background, but Conjurations isn't far behind because I have a manual for that. It just occurred to me as I write this that I ought to check whether I have enchancer staffs for any of these schools.

TLDR: When, if ever, does Vile Clutch become ineffective? Ought a GnNe trade it out for Freezing Cloud for Depths and beyond?
Won (52). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 5 Backgrounds: AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 5 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC, newSif, newFedh

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 1st March 2018, 02:36

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

I would use both, personally.
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MainiacJoe, nago

Abyss Ambulator

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Joined: Friday, 16th January 2015, 20:20

Post Thursday, 1st March 2018, 06:38

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

I recently spectated somebody doing lots of damage with Vile Clutch in Zot:5 on Orb Guardians, Killer Klowns, etc. It seems so overpowered that it has to get nerfed soon...
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Thursday, 1st March 2018, 07:37

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

Airwolf wrote:I recently spectated somebody doing lots of damage with Vile Clutch in Zot:5 on Orb Guardians, Killer Klowns, etc. It seems so overpowered that it has to get nerfed soon...


It already got nerfed in Trunk.

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Airwolf

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 1st March 2018, 15:48

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

Airwolf wrote:I recently spectated somebody doing lots of damage with Vile Clutch in Zot:5 on Orb Guardians, Killer Klowns, etc. It seems so overpowered that it has to get nerfed soon...

I'm not sure with Gn skill training that I can get the spellpower for that. But yes, I'm trying to add Ne to my life-list in 0.21 while zombie hands are in the Ne starting book.
Won (52). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 5 Backgrounds: AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 5 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC, newSif, newFedh

Spider Stomper

Posts: 197

Joined: Sunday, 4th September 2011, 20:45

Post Thursday, 1st March 2018, 18:35

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

Vile Clutch and Freezing Cloud is my main attack combo with the GnWz I'm currently playing (got three runes, not stepped in Zot yet).

  Code:
Moanerette the Drop of Water (Gnoll Wizard)        Turns: 72708, Time: 21:58:08

Health: 195/195    AC: 34    Str: 13    XL:     25
Magic:  67/67      EV: 21    Int: 29    God:    Ru [******]
Gold:   606        SH:  0    Dex: 16    Spells: 2/57 levels left

rFire    + . .     SeeInvis +   w - staff of power
rCold    . . .     Gourm    .   (shield unavailable)
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   s - +7 ring mail "Juach" {+Blink MR+ MP+9}
rPois    .         Spirit   +   z - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec    +         Reflect  .   h - scarf {Spirit}
rCorr    .         Harm     .   u - +2 pair of gloves {archery}
MR       +++..     Clarity  +   Q - +0 pair of boots of Kuciaxeomorch {rElec rF+ Int+2}
Stlth    ++++++....             F - amulet of magic regeneration
HPRegen  0.42/turn              (ring unavailable)
MPRegen  0.65/turn              y - ring of Robustness {AC+8}

@: drained
A: distributed training, fangs 1, iridescent scales 1, clarity, magic resistance
1, missing a hand, unskilled 1, inexperienced 1, strong nose
}: 3/15 runes: decaying, silver, gossamer
a: Draw Out Power, Power Leap, Apocalypse, Renounce Religion, Evoke Blink


You are on level 1 of the Crypt.
You worship Ru.
Ru is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 10 branches of the dungeon, and seen 46 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have visited 1 bazaar.
You have visited 1 ziggurat, and seen 8 of its levels.
You have also visited: Trove and Ossuary.

You have collected 8264 gold pieces.
You have spent 7658 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +7 quick blade of flaming
 b - a +5 hand crossbow of flaming
Missiles
 t - 1212 bolts
Armour
 h - a scarf of spirit shield (worn)
 s - the +7 ring mail "Juach" (worn) {+Blink MR+ MP+9}
   (You took it off an orc priest on level 4 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It affects your magic capacity (+9).
   It lets you blink.
 u - a +2 pair of gloves of archery (worn)
 z - a +2 helmet of see invisible (worn)
 Q - the +0 pair of boots of Kuciaxeomorch (worn) {rElec rF+ Int+2}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
Magical Staves
 w - an uncursed staff of power (weapon)
Jewellery
 y - the ring of Robustness (right hand) {AC+8}
   (You found it on level 5 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [ring of protection]
   
   It affects your AC (+8).
 F - an amulet of magic regeneration (around neck)
 J - the ring "Boseisas" {rN+ Str+3 Slay+3}
   (You took it off a rakshasa on level 3 of the Vaults)   
   
   [ring of positive energy]
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+3).
   It protects you from negative energy.
Wands
 f - a wand of iceblast (9)
 p - a wand of clouds (12)
 r - a wand of digging (62)
 B - a wand of enslavement (14)
 K - a wand of disintegration (27)
 O - a wand of paralysis (21)
 P - a wand of acid (20)
Scrolls
 c - 4 scrolls of silence
 d - 12 scrolls of identify
 g - 38 scrolls of remove curse
 q - 5 scrolls of fear
 x - 5 scrolls of blinking
 G - 9 scrolls of fog
 I - 2 scrolls of amnesia
 L - a scroll of summoning
 S - 16 scrolls of teleportation
 V - 4 scrolls of magic mapping
 W - 5 scrolls of vulnerability
 Y - 6 scrolls of enchant armour
Potions
 i - a potion of agility
 j - 4 potions of ambrosia
 k - 3 potions of haste
 l - 4 potions of heal wounds
 n - 9 potions of brilliance
 o - 2 potions of might
 v - 11 potions of curing
 E - 2 potions of berserk rage
 N - 5 potions of resistance
 T - 10 potions of mutation
 U - 2 potions of cancellation
 X - 3 potions of invisibility
 Z - 3 potions of flight
Miscellaneous
 e - a lightning rod (4/4)
 m - a phial of floods
 A - a fan of gales
 C - 4 phantom mirrors
 D - 3 boxes of beasts
 H - a sack of spiders
 M - a lamp of fire
Comestibles
 R - 52 rations


   Skills:
 + Level 15.5 Fighting
 + Level 15.5 Short Blades
 + Level 15.5 Long Blades
 + Level 15.5 Axes
 + Level 15.5 Maces & Flails
 + Level 15.5 Polearms
 + Level 15.5 Staves
 + Level 15.5 Slings
 + Level 15.1 Bows
 + Level 15.8 Crossbows
 + Level 15.5 Throwing
 + Level 15.5 Armour
 + Level 15.9 Dodging
 + Level 15.9(15.8) Stealth
   Level 0.0 Shields
 + Level 15.5 Unarmed Combat
 + Level 16.5 Spellcasting
 + Level 13.5 Conjurations
 + Level 13.4 Hexes
 + Level 13.3 Charms
 + Level 13.5 Summonings
 + Level 13.3 Necromancy
 + Level 13.5 Translocations
 + Level 13.3 Transmutations
 + Level 13.3 Fire Magic
 + Level 13.3 Ice Magic
 + Level 13.3 Air Magic
 + Level 13.3 Earth Magic
 + Level 13.3 Poison Magic
 + Level 16.7 Invocations
 + Level 15.5 Evocations


You have 2 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Dispel Undead         Necr           #######.     1%          5    None
b - Borgnjor's Vile Clut  Necr/Erth      #######...   1%          5    None
c - Confuse               Hex            #######.     1%          3    None
d - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           #######...   1%          5    None
e - Summon Butterflies    Summ           #######.     0%          1    None
g - Summon Demon          Summ           #######...   1%          5    None
h - Freezing Cloud        Conj/Ice/Air   #######...   1%          6    ###....
i - Iron Shot             Conj/Erth      #######...   1%          6    ###....
k - Animate Skeleton      Necr           N/A          0%          1    None
l - Summon Lightning Spi  Summ/Air       #######.     1%          4    None
q - Darkness              Hex            #######...   1%          6    ###....
r - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #######...   1%          3    None
s - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       #######.     1%          2    None
w - Spectral Weapon       Hex/Chrm       #######.     1%          3    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:4            Lair (6/6) D:11
  Swamp (4/4) Lair:4       Spider (4/4) Lair:2        Slime (0/5) Lair:5
    Orc (2/2) D:11            Elf (3/3) Orc:2        Vaults (5/5) D:14
  Crypt (1/3) Vaults:3     Depths (5/5) D:15            Zot (0/5) Depths:5


  Code:
       Borgnjor's Vile C |       |       |       |       |    64 |   124 |   149 |    43 |   185 ||   565
       Summon Lightning  |       |       |       |       |    10 |    48 |    37 |    17 |    30 ||   142
       Force Lance       |       |       |       |       |     2 |       |       |       |       ||     2
       Lee's Rapid Decon |       |       |       |       |     1 |    60 |    72 |    66 |    71 ||   270
       Summon Butterflie |       |       |       |       |       |     9 |     5 |     1 |     8 ||    23
       Summon Demon      |       |       |       |       |       |    27 |    25 |    16 |    12 ||    80
       Summon Forest     |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |       |       |       ||     3
       Swiftness         |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |     3 ||     4
       Regeneration      |       |       |       |       |       |       |    50 |    20 |    71 ||   141
       Freezing Cloud    |       |       |       |       |       |       |    31 |    12 |    31 ||    74
       Spectral Weapon   |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |    13 |    14 ||    30
       Simulacrum        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    15 |    71 ||    86
       Iron Shot         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    46 ||    46
       Dispel Undead     |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    40 ||    40
       Darkness          |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    30 ||    30

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Airwolf

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5331

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 2nd March 2018, 00:05

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

I don't think gnolls should have any trouble casting freezing cloud, conjurations manual or not. Especially when you say your level 5 spell is starting to 'taper off' that sounds like your level 6 spells should be right about online. Normally freezing cloud is a high investment due to triple spell schools, but that doesn't matter here.

Unless you're critically low on spell levels though, I'd just use both. I don't often use freezing cloud but on the characters I have it's usually best to have solid melee abilities so you can sit on the edge of the freezing cloud and melee things that are under it, which prevents them from running out of it. This is the same thing I generally recommend with clutch - if the monster is already in melee range they won't try to break the clutch, letting it continue to deal damage.

What was changed with clutch in trunk? The closest thing I can find is this: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... 24d5e20ace

Which is all the way back on jan 21st; it also seems like it was more of a bug fix than an intentional power level nerf...Am I missing something else?
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Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1298

Joined: Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 02:42

Location: Sydney, Australia

Post Friday, 2nd March 2018, 00:34

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

tasonir wrote:What was changed with clutch in trunk? The closest thing I can find is this: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... 24d5e20ace

Which is all the way back on jan 21st; it also seems like it was more of a bug fix than an intentional power level nerf...Am I missing something else?


https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5 ... bbeb1b0f02

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5331

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Friday, 2nd March 2018, 00:37

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

Ah wow, only two days before the one I found. I might be partially blind. Thanks.
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Tomb Titivator

Posts: 778

Joined: Thursday, 13th March 2014, 20:15

Post Friday, 2nd March 2018, 06:46

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

MainiacJoe wrote:I have a GnNe which is the farthest I've gotten a Ne since 0.21 introduced Vile Clutch. About to enter Depths, I'm beginning to wonder whether Vile Clutch is beginning to taper off in effectiveness. Because I'm Gn, I can swap it for Freezing Cloud. Both are AOE damage-over-time. My Nec is higher because of my background, but Conjurations isn't far behind because I have a manual for that. It just occurred to me as I write this that I ought to check whether I have enchancer staffs for any of these schools.

TLDR: When, if ever, does Vile Clutch become ineffective? Ought a GnNe trade it out for Freezing Cloud for Depths and beyond?

As Siegurt said, use them both. Catch monsters in the Cluch then cast Freezing Cloud over them (or vice versa).
Very good combo through whole game (both standard and 15 rune). I did use it on my GnTm:
  Code:
Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
       Borgnjor's Vile C |       |       |       |       |       |    17 |    39 |    34 |    98 ||   188
       Freezing Cloud    |       |       |       |       |       |    15 |    24 |    37 |    34 ||   110

Clutch does not become ineffective because caught monsters are constricted, and they are wasting turns trying to break free or they die while trying.
I like to use the Freezing Cloud a lot when I have chance, but this combo is just damn good.
Clutch is nice combo with Chei too: cast it, then invoke Bend Time or Slouch.
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Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1822

Joined: Thursday, 31st May 2012, 15:45

Post Friday, 2nd March 2018, 15:49

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

I can make room for it by forgetting Bolt of Draining. I have a demon trident that I've been poking over my allies with instead of blasting through them, and Iron Shot when I need to deal damage at range.
Won (52). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 5 Backgrounds: AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 5 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC, newSif, newFedh

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bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2162

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Friday, 2nd March 2018, 16:13

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

nvm

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1822

Joined: Thursday, 31st May 2012, 15:45

Post Saturday, 3rd March 2018, 21:48

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

YASD. This character died in Depths. I started this character, then set it aside and started a HuBe because I misplaced the thumb drive this character was on, then won that HuBe and found the thumb drive. Well five minutes in, that pack of four yaktaurs was nothing for that 50AC HuBe I'd just finished, but this was a GnNe in a robe that had forgotten to cast Ozo's. I got pincushioned with stunning swiftness. Oh well.
Won (52). Remaining (15): 5 species: Ba, Fe, Mu, Na, Op; 5 Backgrounds: AM, Wr, Su, AE, Ar; 5 gods: Jiyv, newNem, WJC, newSif, newFedh

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tasonir

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5331

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Monday, 5th March 2018, 20:36

Re: Zombie Hands vs. Freezing Cloud

This is why I find chei so addictive, it's hard to go back to characters that aren't absurdly tanky, which require you to actually use "tactics" instead of tab.

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