Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?


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Mines Malingerer

Posts: 36

Joined: Monday, 5th September 2016, 23:59

Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 13:41

Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Hey, so i'm currently in the luckiest run i've ever had, where like literally 5 unrands've spawned before i've even gotten to Lair. Based on what I've got going on currently, should I keep the Zealot's or swap to Wyrmbane?
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.22-a0-142-g91cc6d7 (tiles) character file.

Vywif the Carver (Gargoyle Gladiator)               Turns: 9315, Time: 00:20:12

Health: 86/86      AC: 23    Str: 24    XL:     12   Next: 9%
Magic:  12/12      EV: 14    Int:  8    God:    the Shining One [***...]
Gold:   681        SH:  3    Dex: 11    Spells: 11/11 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .   h - +10 zealot's sword {holy, *Rage rN+ EV+3}
rCold    + . .     Gourm    .   y - +0 buckler
rNeg     + + +     Faith    .   A - quicksilver dragon scales
rPois    8         Spirit   .   c - +0 helmet
rElec    +         Reflect  .   z - +2 cloak
rCorr    .         Harm     .   j - +1 pair of gloves
MR       +....     Rnd*Rage +   (no boots)
Stlth    ..........             p - amulet of regeneration
HPRegen  0.64/turn              o - ring of protection from cold
MPRegen  0.13/turn              r - ring of positive energy

@: berserk cooldown, slowed, glowing, very slow
A: negative energy resistance 1, robust 2, electricity resistance, unbreathing,
petrification resistance, rot immunity, AC +8
a: Divine Shield, Renounce Religion


You are on level 11 of the Dungeon.
You worship the Shining One.
The Shining One is most pleased with you.
You are hungry.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 12 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer.

You have collected 707 gold pieces.
You have spent 26 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 h - the +10 zealot's sword (weapon) {holy, *Rage rN+ EV+3}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It has been blessed by the Shining One to cause great damage to the undead
   and demons.
   
   It affects your evasion (+3).
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It may make you go berserk in combat.
 F - the +8 lance "Wyrmbane" {slay drac, rPois rF+ rC+ AC+3}
   (You took it off a centaur on level 11 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your AC (+3).
   It protects you from fire.
   It protects you from cold.
   It protects you from poison.
Missiles
 d - 6 throwing nets (quivered)
Armour
 c - a +0 helmet (worn)
 j - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
 y - a +0 buckler (worn)
 z - a +2 cloak (worn)
 A - quicksilver dragon scales (worn)
Jewellery
 o - a ring of protection from cold (left hand)
 p - an amulet of regeneration (around neck)
 r - a ring of positive energy (right hand)
 w - a bound lapis lazuli ring
 H - an uncursed ring of magical power
 K - an uncursed ring of wizardry
 N - an uncursed amulet of faith
 P - an uncursed ring of ice
Wands
 x - a wand of digging (7)
 G - a wand of flame (25)
 J - a wand of iceblast (7)
 O - a wand of polymorph (5)
Scrolls
 e - 7 scrolls of teleportation
 g - 2 scrolls of fear
 m - 5 scrolls of amnesia
 q - 2 scrolls of immolation
 t - a scroll of fog
 B - a scroll of enchant armour
 C - a scroll labeled ZATUXT OMAL
 D - a scroll of identify
 E - a scroll of blinking
 I - 4 scrolls of enchant weapon
Potions
 a - a dark potion
 b - 2 potions of might
 i - 3 potions of heal wounds
 k - 2 potions of brilliance
 l - 3 potions of flight
 n - 4 potions of curing
 s - 2 potions of berserk rage
 u - a potion of agility
 v - a potion of lignification
 M - a bubbling silvery potion
Books
 L - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
   
    Spells                           Type                      Level
    a - Sting                        Conjuration/Poison            1
    b - Poisonous Vapours            Poison/Air                    2
    c - Mephitic Cloud               Conjuration/Poison/Air        3
    d - Olgreb's Toxic Radiance      Poison                        4
    e - Venom Bolt                   Conjuration/Poison            5
Comestibles
 f - 22 rations


   Skills:
 + Level 7.2 Fighting
 - Level 14.7 Long Blades
   Level 7.3 Maces & Flails
 - Level 1.7 Throwing
 - Level 2.4 Dodging


You have 11 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (11/15)            Temple (1/1) D:6             Orc (0/2) D:11
  Lair: D:8-11     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Vehumet
Wu Jian
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:4 *   D:7 =


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to torment.
Your stone body is resilient. (AC +8)
You are immune to poison.
You resist negative energy. (rN+)
You are resistant to electric shocks. (rElec)
You can survive without breathing.
You are immune to petrification.
You are immune to rotting.
You are very robust. (+20% HP)


Message History

No target in view!
No target in view!
No target in view!
No target in view!
No target in view!
No target in view!
No target in view!
No target in view!
m - 5 scrolls of amnesia (gained 1)
You now have 681 gold pieces (gained 14).
Items here: ( )) †
the +8 lance "Wyrmbane" {slay drac, rPois rF+ rC+ AC+3}
a shortbow; 25 arrows; a centaur corpse
F - the +8 lance "Wyrmbane" {slay drac, rPois rF+ rC+ AC+3}
Adjust (i)tems, (s)pells, or (a)bilities?
Huh?
WARNING: ABOUT TO ENTER EXPLORE MODE!
If you continue, your game will not be scored!
Do you really want to enter explore mode? (Confirm with "yes".)
Okay, then.

                           #
                .  #..###  .
             ..  . #....< .#   #
             #.# #.#..#.# .###.#
             #.# #.#..#.##....
             #.# #..........##.#
             #.#   #............
       #     #.#    #.))@.......
       #.#####.#######(.##..##..
       ............(.(..#  .#
       #.......########.#   ..
       ######..#      #.#    #.
##          #.##      #.#      .
.###       ##.##      #.#
...#      ##...##     #.#
.#.#     ##.....## ####.#
.#.#######..)....###..
.#........).)).[.)##.#
.###########.).##)##.##
.#         #..###.))..#####..
.#         #.)# ###)8.......8


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  2 two-headed ogres
  Erica (D:8)
  The ghost of Charlo Entomo the Spear-Bearer, a novice OgMo of Gozag (D:9)
  2 unseen horrors
  Maurice (D:8)
  Psyche (D:8)
  A gargoyle (D:10)
  The ghost of Legitimate Obtrusion the Basher, a novice GrMo (D:6)
  A troll (D:10)
  Prince Ribbit (D:7)
  2 hippogriffs
  Sigmund (D:5)
  2 vampires (D:10)
  A wyvern (D:10)
  5 yaks (D:11)
  A hungry ghost (D:8)
  Eustachio (D:6)
  2 chaos spawn (D:8)
  Menkaure (D:4)
  Edmund (D:5)
  Duvessa (D:5)
  An ice beast (D:11)
  4 sky beasts
  5 orc warriors
  2 phantoms
  3 ogres (D:7)
  11 centaurs
  A crocodile (D:9)
  Blork the orc (D:4)
  7 big kobolds
  3 bullfrogs
  Dowan (D:5)
  5 scorpions
  A wyvern skeleton (D:7)
  5 killer bees (D:7)
  5 wights (D:9)
  3 howler monkeys (D:9)
  A crimson imp (D:10)
  2 centaur zombies
  A bullfrog zombie (D:10)
  4 quasits
  3 centaur skeletons
  5 orc priests
  5 hounds
  3 jellies
  14 orc wizards
  3 bullfrog skeletons
  3 iguanas
  7 worker ants
  2 hound skeletons
  A worker ant zombie (D:7)
  11 adders
  7 gnolls
  2 howler monkey skeletons (D:4)
  6 river rats
  A shadow imp (D:8)
  3 oozes
  An adder zombie (D:6)
  6 worms
  A dart slug (D:2)
  10 leopard geckos
  53 orcs
  6 giant cockroaches
  4 goblins
  5 hobgoblins
  7 jackals
  5 quokkas
  A ball python (D:2)
  8 bats
  4 frilled lizards
  A jackal skeleton (D:6)
  19 kobolds
  A leopard gecko zombie (D:5)
  15 rats
319 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Vywif the Gargoyle Gladiator began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 12/12 MP: 1/1
   179 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 14/17 MP: 2/2
   475 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 16/21 MP: 3/3
   823 | D:2      | Noticed a centaur
   832 | D:2      | Killed a centaur
   832 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Maces & Flails
   832 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 20/26 MP: 4/4
   836 | D:2      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 23/30 MP: 5/5
  1957 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 25/35 MP: 6/6
  2530 | D:4      | Found the +10 zealot's sword {holy, *Rage rN+ EV+3}
  2992 | D:4      | Noticed Menkaure
  2992 | D:4      | Noticed Blork the orc
  2996 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  3000 | D:5      | Noticed Edmund
  3001 | D:5      | Noticed Sigmund
  3045 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Long Blades
  3074 | D:5      | Found a glowing drain.
  3078 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 37/40 MP: 7/7
  3080 | D:5      | Reached skill level 2 in Long Blades
  3096 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  3174 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 3 in Long Blades
  3256 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 4 in Long Blades
  3549 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 5 in Long Blades
  3549 | Sewer    | Reached XP level 8. HP: 44/44 MP: 8/8
  3674 | D:5      | Killed Edmund
  3675 | D:5      | Reached skill level 6 in Long Blades
  3719 | D:5      | Killed Sigmund
  3738 | D:5      | Reached skill level 7 in Long Blades
  3937 | D:5      | Noticed Dowan
  3938 | D:5      | Noticed Duvessa
  3944 | D:5      | Killed Duvessa
  3944 | D:5      | Reached skill level 8 in Long Blades
  3947 | D:5      | Killed Dowan
  3947 | D:5      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 48/48 MP: 9/9
  4449 | D:4      | Found Epaustruan's General Store.
  4454 | D:4      | Bought a scroll of identify for 26 gold pieces
  4638 | D:4      | Killed Menkaure
  4800 | D:4      | Killed Blork the orc
  4800 | D:4      | Reached skill level 9 in Long Blades
  4886 | D:6      | Noticed Eustachio
  4894 | D:6      | Killed Eustachio
  5042 | D:6      | Noticed Legitimate Obtrusion's ghost (novice GrMo)
  5049 | D:6      | Killed Legitimate Obtrusion's ghost
  5049 | D:6      | Reached skill level 10 in Long Blades
  5131 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5196 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  5295 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of the Shining One
  5887 | D:7      | Found Janyrofe's Jewellery Boutique.
  5997 | D:7      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 53/53 MP: 10/10
  6003 | D:7      | Reached skill level 11 in Long Blades
  6139 | D:7      | Noticed Prince Ribbit
  6151 | D:7      | Killed Prince Ribbit
  6479 | D:7      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
  6649 | D:7      | You fall through a shaft for 2 floors!
  6651 | D:9      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  6722 | D:9      | Reached * piety under the Shining One
  6738 | D:8      | Noticed Psyche
  6742 | D:8      | Killed Psyche
  6742 | D:8      | Reached skill level 12 in Long Blades
  6750 | D:8      | Noticed Maurice
  6756 | D:8      | Killed Maurice
  6862 | D:8      | Noticed Erica
  6869 | D:8      | Killed Erica
  6874 | D:8      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  6878 | D:8      | Reached skill level 13 in Long Blades
  6981 | D:8      | Found the -4 mace of Variability {chaos}
  7023 | D:8      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  7033 | D:8      | Killed a two-headed ogre
  7033 | D:8      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 52/57 MP: 11/11
  7744 | D:9      | Found a hide-covered altar of Uskayaw.
  7908 | D:9      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  7916 | D:9      | Killed a two-headed ogre
  8033 | D:9      | Found the +8 demon blade "Leech" {vamp, rN+ AC-3 EV-3}
  8068 | D:9      | Reached skill level 14 in Long Blades
  8071 | D:9      | Reached ** piety under the Shining One
  8309 | D:9      | Noticed Charlo Entomo's ghost (novice OgMo)
  8320 | D:9      | Killed Charlo Entomo's ghost
  8348 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
  8549 | D:10     | Noticed an unseen horror
  8558 | D:10     | Killed an unseen horror
  9025 | D:10     | Gained mutation: You are robust. (+10% HP) [potion of mutation]
  9025 | D:10     | Gained mutation: You are very robust. (+20% HP) [potion of mutation]
  9117 | D:11     | Got a bound lapis lazuli ring
  9162 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  9184 | D:11     | Reached *** piety under the Shining One
  9278 | D:11     | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  9288 | D:11     | Noticed an unseen horror
  9292 | D:11     | Killed an unseen horror
  9292 | D:11     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 85/85 MP: 12/12

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 |
---------------+-------------------------------------+-----
Maces & Flails |     4  5     6  7                   |  7.3
Long Blades    |                 1  5  8 10 13 14    | 14.7
Fighting       |                                6  7 |  7.2
Throwing       |                                     |  1.7
Dodging        |                                     |  2.4

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Flail             |    98 |   176 |       |       ||   274
       Eudemon blade     |       |    14 |   239 |   288 ||   541
Throw: Throwing net      |       |     2 |       |       ||     2
  Use: Potion            |       |     6 |     1 |     5 ||    12
       Scroll            |       |     6 |     4 |     7 ||    17
 Stab: Distracted        |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
  Eat: Ration            |       |     2 |     3 |     2 ||     7
       Chunk             |       |     2 |     2 |       ||     4
Armor: Leather armour    |    25 |       |       |       ||    25
       Ring mail         |    31 |    77 |       |       ||   108
       Chain mail        |       |    44 |   100 |       ||   144
       Quicksilver drago |       |       |     8 |   107 ||   115
Dodge: Dodged            |   110 |   116 |   117 |   154 ||   497
Block: Buckler           |       |       |     2 |    31 ||    33
Rpst.: Eudemon blade     |       |     4 |    32 |    31 ||    67

Table legend:
 A = Spawn XP
 B = Non-spawn XP
 C = Spawn XP percentage of total XP
 D = Spawn monster count
 E = Non-spawn monster count
 F = Spawn count percentage of total count
 G = Total turns spent on level

                 A         B        C        D         E        F        G   
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+---------
      Total |       0 |   19723 |   0.0 |       0 |     319 |   0.0 |    9315
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+---------
        D:1 |       0 |      38 |   0.0 |       0 |      24 |   0.0 |     823
        D:2 |       0 |     177 |   0.0 |       0 |      19 |   0.0 |     589
        D:3 |       0 |     147 |   0.0 |       0 |      24 |   0.0 |    1097
        D:4 |       0 |     585 |   0.0 |       0 |      20 |   0.0 |    1028
        D:5 |       0 |    1368 |   0.0 |       0 |      32 |   0.0 |     791
        D:6 |       0 |    1167 |   0.0 |       0 |      17 |   0.0 |     623
        D:7 |       0 |    1976 |   0.0 |       0 |      33 |   0.0 |     934
        D:8 |       0 |    3871 |   0.0 |       0 |      29 |   0.0 |     894
        D:9 |       0 |    3123 |   0.0 |       0 |      22 |   0.0 |     805
       D:10 |       0 |    2804 |   0.0 |       0 |      18 |   0.0 |     723
       D:11 |       0 |    3844 |   0.0 |       0 |      53 |   0.0 |     244
      Sewer |       0 |     623 |   0.0 |       0 |      28 |   0.0 |     544
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+---------

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 44

Joined: Tuesday, 31st October 2017, 08:40

Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 13:50

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Neither. What you should really do is go pick up Leech and use it through the whole game

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 36

Joined: Monday, 5th September 2016, 23:59

Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 13:51

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Honestly, now i'm feeling really stupid for even asking. Of COURSE i should go back for leech, it's the only weapon in the game.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 44

Joined: Tuesday, 31st October 2017, 08:40

Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 14:15

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Is this a request for me to elaborate or you being mad about me answering "C" when you asked "A or B?" Anyway, I'll do the former. Wyrmbane is out of question for a long time ahead because you've already lost a good chunk of early XP on swapping from m&F to long blades. Zealot's has a brand which is only relevant in extended and untimely *Rage proc is very likely to kill you. Leech has a brand which is significantly better than its mundane version (which is already very good) and is very relevant everywhere except extended. All those AC/EV bonuses and +2 enchantment pale in comparison to what I described above. Even if you find a source of Clarity (OrangeCPA or Four Winds), I'd still favor Leech. The only straigth imrovements off the top of my head are Speed-branded Great Sword/Triple Sword, Plutonium, maybe Sword of Power
Last edited by Stairdancer on Sunday, 25th February 2018, 14:28, edited 1 time in total.

For this message the author Stairdancer has received thanks: 2
nago, VeryAngryFelid

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 36

Joined: Monday, 5th September 2016, 23:59

Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 14:18

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Oh, i thought you were joking, my reply was a joke back!

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 36

Joined: Monday, 5th September 2016, 23:59

Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 14:27

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Anyway, at this point, i'm not sure Leech is worth TSO wrath

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 44

Joined: Tuesday, 31st October 2017, 08:40

Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 14:30

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Oh, my bad, I never worship any of the good gods and always forget about those stupid restrictments. TSO won't inflict wrath at you though cause he is "good" though and it's not like TOO late to switch at this point... If you really worry about your piety, switching to Uskayaw is a decent option
Last edited by Stairdancer on Sunday, 25th February 2018, 14:39, edited 2 times in total.

For this message the author Stairdancer has received thanks: 2
nago, VeryAngryFelid

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 36

Joined: Monday, 5th September 2016, 23:59

Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 14:33

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

I mean, maybe so, but there's the theming, and the fact i can summon like 3 angels/daevas and let the infectious berserkitis tear through pretty much anything i've run into yet! Granted, hubris is becoming a problem, but it's been a Lot of fun thus far!

Also, the last Vault in Orc has a Pan portal in it, and i'm really, really trying hard not to just leap headlong into the bastard zone.

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Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 14:37

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Sure, if you're doing it right as long as you're having fun

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Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 15:34

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Zealot's sword is good. Besides, you have already invested a lot in Long Blades.

Train more Armour.

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Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 19:10

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

bel wrote:Zealot's sword is good. Besides, you have already invested a lot in Long Blades.

Train more Armour.


Primarily based upon the fact that you've already trained Long Blades quite a bit, I agree with this. That is a very effective weapon, especially given the fairly early stages of the game you're in. For whatever benefit leech will give vamping stuff, TSO offers a compelling counter argument - divine shields, better accuracy, SInv, rN+++, Angels, holy blasts, health and mana on kills fairly often, not receiving the negative bonuses on leech, and higher base attributes and enchant on Zealot. Leech won't drain a lot of monsters and then it's just like an unbranded demon blade with negative stats. You can't easily swap leech to a hand-crossbow, staff or alternative weapon. Then there is the god switching situation to consider.

All that being said, the biggest negative here is the rage from the sword, because without Trog, it can get you killed and that's a pretty large downside. I would be hoping for a plain double sword or an eveningstar since you have maces somewhat trained, then ditch the zealot.

Wyrmbane is a fun weapon and it's strong early to mid-game. I would say definitely use it if you had trained for it already, but you didn't. It falls down later primarily because of it's low base damage. It's also a decent thing for a spellcaster to just simply hold (untrained) for it's defensive properties if you're not planning to do a ton of melee and/or just want some supplemental melee ability.

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Post Sunday, 25th February 2018, 20:35

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

how many times you get to play with both zealot sword and tso? just stick to it. i can only imagine what a berserked daeva could do

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Post Monday, 26th February 2018, 09:02

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

FR: If you abandon TSO and join a neutral god (so no TSO wrath occurs), you still should get TSO wrath for using vampiric/draining weapon.

Edit. +1 for using Leech and +1 for warning that *Rage will kill the character.
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Post Monday, 26th February 2018, 09:05

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

svendre wrote:Leech won't drain a lot of monsters and then it's just like an unbranded demon blade with negative stats.


You probably should add it to your "Popular, but stupid notions" thread. "Vampiric and especially Leech is a big deal in 3 rune game".
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Post Monday, 26th February 2018, 14:21

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Wyrmbane no question. 12 polearm for min delay of what, 5? Can enchant up to +20 or 22. One handed weapon. What could possibly be better?

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Post Monday, 26th February 2018, 14:26

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

MrPlanck wrote:Wyrmbane no question. 12 polearm for min delay of what, 5? Can enchant up to +20 or 22. One handed weapon. What could possibly be better?


It's Gr, the character already has AC 23 at XL 12. It can be almost unkillable with good vampiric weapon and leech is much better than any vampiric weapon.
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Post Monday, 26th February 2018, 15:44

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

despairbutalsodespair wrote:how many times you get to play with both zealot sword and tso? just stick to it. i can only imagine what a berserked daeva could do

Holy monsters cannot berserk. I thought a special case was made for Zealot, but I cannot find if that really happened, or if I just wished really hard it did.
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Post Monday, 26th February 2018, 22:49

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

I haven't used the zealot's sword, and the base type is quite strong, but even so I'd be worried about the berserk. It is certainly easier to continue using the weapon type you've already trained, though.

Still, wyrmbane is only 12 skill for min delay, and it's quite powerful. Both weapons allow a shield, so once you're a bit further in, just training 12 polearms isn't much of a cost at all. You'll probably want to wait until you can expect to find some dragons to get the enchantment up a bit, but once it's over 10 it's quite a powerful weapon. I think the max is +18, though, not sure where felidMrPlanck is getting +20 or +22 from, unless there's some new dragon with higher HD?
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Post Tuesday, 27th February 2018, 02:04

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

MrPlanck wrote:Wyrmbane no question. 12 polearm for min delay of what, 5? Can enchant up to +20 or 22. One handed weapon. What could possibly be better?


+18 max.

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Post Tuesday, 27th February 2018, 06:14

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

"Felid" said nothing about wyrmbane in this thread.
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Post Tuesday, 27th February 2018, 06:17

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

High damage is not that important on some levels with huge amount of monsters (vaults 5 is typical example) while vampiric allows to stay above 50% hp and kill them all without retreating.
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Post Tuesday, 27th February 2018, 09:46

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:High damage is not that important on some levels with huge amount of monsters (vaults 5 is typical example) while vampiric allows to stay above 50% hp and kill them all without retreating.


This is a vast oversimplification. There are a number of strategies for vault5 and the weapon/god combos could play out in different ways. Vampiric isn't a no-brainer. I won't go so far as to say it's a bad strategy at all but by no means is it always an obvious one. Hardly a comprehensive look at why, but ancient liches, shadow dragons,... TSO giving health and mana when these things and others get killed in vault5, being able to unleash AOE blasts of holy (and catch heals when you want them with careful planning).. arguably TSO and Makhleb are the two best choices for vault5 since they return health on kills. Besides Mak's health on kill ability (which could be used with the leech), I wouldn't say the set of abilities and buffs from Mak are better than TSO's. Sometimes you do just want to kill faster and take less damage overall than need to more often replenish health. Leech won't help you recover from the ranged damage (of say a shadow dragon bolt) unless you can safely melee something. One of the most dangerous threats can be ghosts you can't anticipate, and TSO with a zealot could short work of them.

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Post Tuesday, 27th February 2018, 09:51

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

svendre wrote:Vampiric isn't a no-brainer


It is a no brainer. Even if you are a caster. Unless you are in Crypt of course. There are only a few monsters where TSO gives HP on kills and nothing prevents using vampiric with Makhleb. Have you cleared the whole Vaults:5 non-stop as DD of Makhleb with vampiric weapon in a single "killhole"? I have. All other levels were just boring, I haven't even finished a few games because of luck with vampiric weapon.
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Post Tuesday, 27th February 2018, 10:11

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
svendre wrote:Vampiric isn't a no-brainer


It is a no brainer. Even if you are a caster. Unless you are in Crypt of course. There are only a few monsters where TSO gives HP on kills and nothing prevents using vampiric with Makhleb. Have you cleared the whole Vaults:5 non-stop as DD of Makhleb with vampiric weapon in a single "killhole"? I have. All other levels were just boring, I haven't even finished a few games because of luck with vampiric weapon.


Sure I've played with vampiric weapons, and leech. In vault5, certainly. With Mak, likely since that would be a solid choice if I want to be able to use a vampiric weapon. Can it be done, certainly. Would using a vampiric long blade be my first choice, as a no-brainer for all vault5 runs... even as a caster? Heck no. It wouldn't make any of my top tactic lists. Here are several things I would do before that:

Caster (tornado/ignite flames), keep near stairs, with Mak, absolutely zero reason to have leech. You're better off with a staff of energy, air, fire, or other artifact with properties to boost your casting tactic

Melee guy with Mak, I'd be much more likely to want an axe than any long blade, leech included. I'd want an axe which could damage all sorts of things more evenly, such as chopping or multiple brands to cover the various scenarios. Killing faster with Mak means getting health faster. Killing faster both on account that you'd have a damaging brand and hitting stuff all around you. This assumes you're going to try and hold the stairs.

I'd run to a corridor then use immolate. In this case I want to kill what triggers the chain-reaction sooner rather than later. The ensuing explosions (particularly with Mak, or even TSO) pretty much make whatever vampiric lifegain irrelevant.

Then, there's the tactic which a lot of very good players agree upon (although I don't find it as fun) which is to use teleport before you come down the stairs, and then not alert the entire level to your presence, but pick them off. This puts you in less of a kill everything-at-once mode.

Lastly, there aren't really any kill-holes on Vault5. You can't dig in there with a wand, or quickly with Lee's. The best you could most of the time (with a few exceptions) is a corridor being attacked by 2 or 3 sides. Finally, if I didn't have TSO, I'd be reasonably concerned about rN for the simple fact that it's easy to get drained a lot in there. For this reason alone, I would choose one of the above quicker and/or quieter methods to clear the level. Sure you can have rN+++ on Mak, but guess what, it's just one more thing you likely pay for in gear selections.

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Post Tuesday, 27th February 2018, 10:47

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

It sounds like I was not clear enough. Of course I didn't suggest to stop using spells, ignore immolation or use vampiric dagger.
In my experience a non-vampiric battleaxe with Makhleb is worse than vampiric non-battleaxe with Makhlrb: it is not rare to get into situation when you are low on HP because you expected to kill some monsters with the axe but you missed or dealt too low damage.
That's why I put "killholes" in quotes, being attacked by 2-3 monsters is fine when you are DD of Makhleb with vampiric battleaxe.
There is no reason to rush for killing monsters when you use vampiric weapon with Makhleb or not, you just slowly take your time, you basically don't care much how long the fight lasts, you are barely losing HP if any.
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Post Tuesday, 27th February 2018, 11:07

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:It sounds like I was not clear enough. Of course I didn't suggest to stop using spells, ignore immolation or use vampiric dagger.
In my experience a non-vampiric battleaxe with Makhleb is worse than vampiric non-battleaxe with Makhlrb: it is not rare to get into situation when you are low on HP because you expected to kill some monsters with the axe but you missed or dealt too low damage.
That's why I put "killholes" in quotes, being attacked by 2-3 monsters is fine when you are DD of Makhleb with vampiric battleaxe.
There is no reason to rush for killing monsters when you use vampiric weapon with Makhleb or not, you just slowly take your time, you basically don't care much how long the fight lasts, you are barely losing HP if any.


I guess I don't understand what we're debating then. My point was mainly that I don't think the leech, particularly for the OP's situation is a no-brainer, that there are a lot of considerations otherwise. If you're a caster, you're likely going to deal less damage with the vampiric weapon to the point where it may very well likely not be worth it. If it's a dagger, it's not leech, and you can't easily just swap unless you're undead. If you're stabbing with the vampiric dagger, you're likely to not even be taking damage from stabbing and less likely to be in situations where you need to fight a whole level at once, or you need to GTFO because things went wrong.

You say there's no reason for rushing to kill stuff using a vampiric weapon, I guess I don't agree that is universal. There are definitely situations where that could not work out well. I'll give one: ancient lich behind a monster you can't drain life from summons a fiend. Behind him are a couple titans. You're sitting there trying to chop away, with essentially no brand and actually negative stats from leech, NOT gaining life, meanwhile you're getting tormented and smite targeted. If you were worshipping TSO in that case, you could unleash holy blast (and/or use the holy weapon) killing the tormentor, injuring the lich and possibly killing what was next to you while gaining life and mana to offset the damage the titans were doing.

I think my advice is much more relevant to a 15 rune game overall, but not completely. TSO is really, really good in my experience, even for all stages of the game.

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Post Tuesday, 27th February 2018, 11:14

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

I am suggesting to use Leech for the character because it is arguably the best species for vampiric weapon (highest possible AC).
I am not sure how Ancient Lich is relevant here, I often switch to a different weapon for the whole Crypt (holy if I am lucky to have it) and nothing prevents from tactical swap in any situation, there is enough food for that.
I tried TSO early game and my experience is quite the opposite, it does not do much unless you train lots of Invo which is not a good idea early IMHO. Oka->TSO is a typical switch and not without a reason I think.
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Post Tuesday, 27th February 2018, 12:32

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Leech + TSO = ???
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Post Tuesday, 27th February 2018, 12:40

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Abandon TSO of course. It is a bad good god in 3 rune game and does not trigger wrath for joining neutral gods like Okawaru or Trog.
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Post Thursday, 8th March 2018, 15:12

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Huh. Somehow I thought Leech was a dagger or whip or something. Yeah, it's pretty good. I like the wiki's advice:
You may wish to switch to something more damaging if you run into a particularly nasty undead enemy

... because of course you're gonna be sitting on another one-hander that does more damage than a +8 demon blade. Actually, you are, which is pretty great.

It's not totally clear whether Zealot's is supposed to allow holies to go berserk or not (I think it should) — there's special code for zealot's in the monster berserk code but I think it's for monsters who are wielding zealot's and go berserk, because that's a thing that definitely happens all the time :/
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Post Saturday, 10th March 2018, 01:21

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Whatever. 18 or 22. I'd take WB every time in a 3 rune game.

Let's discuss: vamp is for suckers :D

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Post Saturday, 10th March 2018, 13:35

Re: Zealot's Sword or Wyrmbane?

Definitely train armor..you have a lot of skill in long blades, so zealot is best. Train armor!!!

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