Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 27th January 2018, 23:12

Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

So, I've won an OpFi before, and, because I like pain, I want to try to go for the greaterOctopode achievement.

The problem is I'm looking for an RNG-independent way to play melee Op, and I keep failing. The earlygame and lair/orc is fairly easy, but the lair branches tend to be very,very difficult.

So, what are the preferred gods/strategies/spells for an Octopode looking to win consistently, and with different starting backgrounds?

(By 'RNG-independent', I mean: no early statue form/protection rings/shield.)
16/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm, OpSk
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 28th January 2018, 00:07

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

I'm extremely bad with Octopodes, but Berder streaked a few 15-rune octopodes of Dithmenos and sure enough, my only Octopode win was with Dith (OpGl), so I think Dith should be a decent choice for a god. But of course, as usual, you should generally pick the first suitable god you find...
...DDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}
{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAM
BaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 28th January 2018, 00:39

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Avoid melee.

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Nino, VeryAngryFelid

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 28th January 2018, 07:21

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Airwolf wrote:Avoid melee.


This. It is impossible to win a pure melee character with bad weapon, almost zero AC and HP penalty and without good luck. You need either luck in every dangerous fight or luck with stealth rolls or luck with equipment. If you want to win without luck, join Vehumet. You are guaranteed to have some spells and then having good tactical skills is enough to win
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 28th January 2018, 14:49

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Obviously spells are quite needed for an Octopode, but you can't really avoid melee as a melee start.

Are you suggesting that something like OpGl^Vehumet is viable? I prefer summons/transmutations over conjurations so is Sif also a good choice?

Also, I have gotten statue form early in the lair branches and died to a random hydra in swamp:4 after neglecting my skill training to pump earth/transmutation so I'm not convinced that Octopode melee is that terrible.
16/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm, OpSk

Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 28th January 2018, 16:54

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Try a god that gives you access to allies like Fedhas, Kiku, or Yred. Fedhas lets you dump some oklobs on branch endings if your character is otherwise weak, and mushrooms are super op in the earlygame. I believe that Kiku guarantees at least one ally spell since Cigotuvi's embrace got removed. Kiku also gives you a bunch of other good spells, of course. Yred takes a while to gift the permanent allies but you can make zombies before that and once you have a servitor or a bone dragon you don't really have to do anything other than walk around until Zot.

OpGl of Sif sounds terrible imo.
Remove spell hunger.

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Kramin42, nago, Vajrapani, VeryAngryFelid

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Post Sunday, 28th January 2018, 18:35

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Ranged weapons are good, too!

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Post Sunday, 28th January 2018, 18:50

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

To say more, Op melee *offense* is amazing due to constriction, but *defense* is terrible until you get some AC. You need a reliable way to kill ogres, packs of yaks, etc. without getting killed.

Spells, ranged, evocations, and invocations can all work, depending on what you start with and find. Train *one* of them so it works well when you need it and *don't forget to use it*!

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Post Sunday, 28th January 2018, 18:58

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Hellmonk wrote:...

OpGl of Sif sounds terrible imo.


Yeah, Sif takes forever to gift spellbooks and OpGl needs options immediately.

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Post Sunday, 28th January 2018, 19:28

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

I can't imagine not meleeing on an octopode. There was another thread like this but for opbe and people were like you need to find an early xbow or you're boned! and maybe abandon trog for statue form, and I wanted to die reading it.
mikee_ has won 166 times in 396 games (41.92%): 4xDSFi 4xMDFi 3xDDCK 3xDDEE 3xHOPr 2xDDHe 2xDDNe 2xDSBe 2xKeAE 2xMfCr 2xMfSt 2xMiAr 2xMiBe 2xNaTm 1xCeAr 1xCeAs 1xCeBe 1xCeEn 1xCeFE 1xCePa 1xCeTm 1xCeWz 1xDDAs 1xDDCr 1xDDHu 1xDDTm 1xDENe 1xDEWz

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Monday, 29th January 2018, 00:02

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Ok, so far I've got 4 options from my octopode experiments that can most likely secure me a win on any background and any playstyle:

a) Worship Yred, switch to Makhleb when I find statue and make it castable.
(Like how I won my OpFi, but it's boring to do the same strategy,)

b) Worship Kiku, kill stuff with pain brand + necromancy spells

c) Worship Gozag, hope for some strong weapon,shields and rings in shops. Rely on potion petition to kill tough opponents + bribe branch on branch endings.

d) Worship Okawaru, use throwing and UC extensively.

The only thing missing now is my tactics, I've gotten a lot of strong octopodes killed due to dumb mistakes. They require a little more finesse to handle. For example, hydrae, which are popcorn enemies by the time you do swamp, are still pretty capable of 1 to 2-shotting you.
16/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm, OpSk

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 29th January 2018, 01:42

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Oka works fine with any melee and ranged weapon.

Tactics are even more important with no AC.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Monday, 29th January 2018, 02:06

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

mikee wrote:I can't imagine not meleeing on an octopode.

This.

Constriction is pretty strong, and why play Op if you don't want to have some fun anyway? Just don't overcommit and you'll be fine.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 29th January 2018, 06:11

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Vajrapani wrote:Obviously spells are quite needed for an Octopode, but you can't really avoid melee as a melee start.

Are you suggesting that something like OpGl^Vehumet is viable? I prefer summons/transmutations over conjurations so is Sif also a good choice?

Also, I have gotten statue form early in the lair branches and died to a random hydra in swamp:4 after neglecting my skill training to pump earth/transmutation so I'm not convinced that Octopode melee is that terrible.
Yes, OpFi of Vehumet is viable. Remember: you asked a way to win without RNG i. e. No transformations, no good rings, mediocre weapon. Constriction is very powerful early and then you start getting Vehumet gifts and tranform into a primarily caster. Sif muna is not good without RNG role. For instance, I am playing GnNe of Sif Muna and it gifted me Statue Form in Depths.
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Post Monday, 29th January 2018, 15:38

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

I think fighter is the only "reliable" Op start since it's the only background that actually gives you an actual defence from being instant killed by a random centaur or whatever. I suppose summons might work too if you have amazing conecntration abilities. Ironically I find octopode constrict meaning that Op is the one "caster" species which can reliably melee when out of MP on D:1.

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Post Monday, 29th January 2018, 15:42

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Plantissue wrote:I think fighter is the only "reliable" Op start since it's the only background that actually gives you an actual defence from being instant killed by a random centaur or whatever. I suppose summons might work too if you have amazing conecntration abilities. Ironically I find octopode constrict meaning that Op is the one "caster" species which can reliably melee when out of MP on D:1.


I don't see how Shield provides reliable defense. EV is more reliable since it is not decreased by multiple attacks and shield does reduce EV when Centaurs are dangerous.
I checked my online octopode games and found that I won 1/3 OpVM and 1/1 OpTm. I assume OpCj should be even easier.
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Post Monday, 29th January 2018, 16:52

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

For the most part, Unarmed with a shield and very careful play supplemented by throwing with either spells or berserk is enough to 3 rune any Op. People on this forum tend to scoff at my advocacy of unarmed on Op, but it works. Unarmed is not the necessarily the optimal for end game or whatever. A sacred Scourge will do better for less XP investment. But unarmed on Op is 1) fast, so more aux attack (which are a big deal for Op UC since squeeze and offhand) 2) consistent, it is usually better in early and mid game even with god gifts 3) works great with forms (including tree form which should absolutely not be overlooked for Op). If you invest in UC/Fighting all the way to 27 it is quite effective, but this is of course a very large XP investment, but its also entirely predictable.

In general for any melee Op start I train only UC up to about 9-10 initially. I immediately wear any shield I get (except maybe a large shield). After that UC I will train a defense (dodge or shield) and fighting. Specifically for Be and sometimes Oka I also train throwing. If I find certain spells (like Oka armor) I will try to get them castable ASAP, this may include training shields more and fighting less to reduce casting penalty.

I currently have a 3 rune OpBe(pure no god switching) that has cleared down all of Zot 1-4, not sure if I will just do the orb run or go for more. This Op clear a V2 floor that had Boris, Mennas, Sojobo and Donald on it. He also killed Khufu with a pack of 2 Greater mummies I have won hellcrawl with 4 Op including a branchless run. And 15 runed 3-4 Op in earlier versions of DCSS, including a 15 rune mostly melee unarmed OpFi of Oka->Zin that used no transmutations at all.

Here are some general points:
1) AC is not as big a deal as its made out to be, but it of course is valuable and past a certain point of EV/SH is where you are most likely to get defense gains. The OpBe I mentioned above currently has 9AC 38 EV and 33 SH. This is sufficient defense to kill most nasty things. If I remember right my 15 rune no tranmute guy had similar but since he could use Ozo armor he had like 20 AC. Since he flat out killed Cerebov and Antaeus purely duking it out in melee I consider this a good demonstration that its fine. Obviously a statue-pode with those same EV/SH and 35 AC instead is safer. You eventually need good combined defenses and will most likely use high offense + other helping strats (wands, needles, stealth etc). If you get unlucky and never get any defense rings (AC or EV) and nothing better than a buckler after clearing say half of each Lair branch then you may be screwed. But that is pretty rare, 90% of the time you get something. Even just having a large shield and a few scrolls of enchant is enough to get combined defense close to 50 (3/24/24) or so. Ok well that sounds ok, but people who have played melee OP are going to realize that 50 combined defense alone seems ok in a lot of fight but key fight are still unacceptably dangerous. So let us consider a common case; an 8 headed Hydra. You can easily run into many of these if you get swamp. At totalDef=50 you can kill a 8H hydra or you can get a lot of your life taken in one round if you are unlucky. This is one of the problems with my second point below, you can do fine for 3 rounds and then get suddenly smashed so your feel for what is dangerous can involve many many Op deaths. This case however is entirely managable when you supplement that totalDef=50. This can be supplemented in many ways and you usually only need one thing. For example Berserking will reliably win this fight, you simply just flat out do enough damage to kill it before it really whacks you, same is true of Finesse+heroism. Wands of disintegration with good evo (say 9 or so) or throwing can often take about 50% of the life off the hydra, this is usually enough to be fine for finishing the fight in melee. Tree form will almost certainly work and with good shield (about 30+) is enough to kill Lernie as well. Some of these strats are not going to be available for all the hydra you encounter either due to consumable limits or piety limits. But in general you can typical get by rotating a few of these for situations like this.

2) You absolutely need to understand what will kill you fast, certain things like melee brands take on a whole different significant when you have low AC and are not yet at decent HP. Also confuse is even more dangerous since it nullifies SH. You absolutely cannot allow yourself to get overwhelmed and surrounded in the Lair Branches, you are highly unlikely to be strong enough defensively.

3) Many people gravitate towards statuepode due to the AC, and this is fine it works great and in certain circumstance like Tomb it is probably superior, but I have come to the conclusion that Dragon Form is actually superior for most cases on Op due to its offense and extra speed. But in general to play Op to its greatest potential being very offensively minded and killing fast can work very well. This seems strange since I said above "with very careful play" and it is strange. This is one reason #2 is of critical importance. Op is a strange blend off being extremely careful (which is why I like to have 5+ or 6+ stealth) and extremely offensive. This is probably why some people have had great success with Dith (stealth and shadow form to GTFO).

4) Berserk, might, and Tree form are much much more valuable. Slaying+str with unarmed (since you get extra aux) kills VERY fast. Tree form is very damaging in UC and gives you the AC/resistances to patch up certain things. An unarmed Op with a shield and tree form should always clear a pack of ugly things for example, or in my case kill Khufu and Mennas.

The best starts (IMO) for Op are Fi and IE. The worst start is OpBe, berserk does help a lot but no spells on an Op is a crippling handicap and the equipment is worse than Fi which can go for another god that is far less crippling and whose positives are close to as good (or arguably better, but since Trog is so incredibly crippling for an Op the alternate god's positive only need to be close).

Fi gives you a shield and shield + god powers or a few key spells is enough to get an Op going. Shields seem to be more common in recent versions of crawl so maybe Fi is not so key anymore. On various OpBe starts (3 of which were quite promising, I just made dumb mistakes) I found a shield of some sort on like 80% of them.

IE is just a great start in general but on Op specifically you starting offense is enough to train summon ice beast to castable almost every single start. SIB basically solves all your problems and will clear Lair and down to D13 or so. At that point, unless you are very unlucky, you can have either trained another useful spell of some sort (many options) or have trained UC and shield enough to supplement SIB. What you train kind of depends, you don't need shield immediately if you get statue form going and its useless in dragon form. But eventually you probably want it on a 15 rune, but maybe not on a 3 rune. A blaster Op is going to go in a similar direction to any other blaster etc. But as a general statement a melee focused Op with a shield and and SIB+Ozo armor can take on most things fine the extra armor makes 15 AC reasonable and 15SH + 25 EV is quite good, 3 IB do ALOT of extra damage. Unless you really are worried about stats and don't want the points in Int IE is actually really good start for an Op you actually want to make into a melee guy. You may not be true melee until mid game, but it guarantees you Ozo armor and a highly reliable route to mid game.

OpIE is consistently winnable and winnable in multiple different ways. What god you take for OpIE can vary quite a bit since the start itself is so strong. I suppose OpTr is too, but I think the Tr start sucks.

However winning all starts is another matter entirely. I agree that Op melee in the first few levels is strong enough to make them very easy (not just because of constriction, this helps, but the squeeze Aux is actually a major killer that people overlook). In fact on the OpIE start I rarely even need to use Freeze. As long as you can deal with ogres/Ice Beasts and/or avoid major poisoning by adders you are fine for d6 or so.

If you want to do a start and go melee from the outset then, IMO, you either need a shield eventually or you need to do one of the hybrid-ish styles like stabbing or whatever.

In general the extra beginning offense is enough to get an Op to the temple fairly easy fairly often. So using the Vehumet to blaster strat is viable for melee starts (since Op have good int). On the other hand but for similar reasons you can often find at least a buckler and take Oka on most melee starts and go pure melee. You don't need a shield until about lair or so. And Heroism and finesse can be used to kill most anything. Oka will almost certainly give you a shield and/or hat by the time you really need it. Hopefully you find at least a buckler before Lair. I haven't seriously tried it in a while but I think the Oka rush can work on any melee Op start. In general liberal use of Finesse can clear depths on an OpFi fairly well. Any other melee start can do the same its just that OpFi guarantees the shield.

Some people may disagree, but for me, I don't see how an Op can be a straight up melee brawler without a shield if they are not in a form (including statue form but obviously UC+shield is best in statue form).

The fairly high likelyhood(stealth+offense) of getting any Op start to Temple can be leveraged in a few ways:

1) Go vehumet and make a blaster. I personally don't like this, but it can work.
2) For melee, go Oka. You'll need a shield.
3) Go dith, various ways to play this (stabby or ranged for mimic or both). UC mimic sucks don't do it.
4) Go qazlal. Some people will think this is crazy, but qaz gives you SH and is another way of being a blaster. Not for the faint of heart. If you are comfortable playing Qaz its an option.
5) Go Chei. I have 15 runed Op of chei before. I don't reccomend it but it can work. The high dex means you can get high EV regardless of luck, if you find a shield your SH will be even higher but as melee you don't need a shield as badly. High int makes any spell you find castable nice and early. Same problems as any other Chei guy.
6) Go Fedhas and do typical Fedhas strats on dangerous stuff.
7) Go the necro style gods

For the strong starts or ones with a ready built strat you can do whatever seems appropriate.

For me the most straight forward for melee is the Oka option, it can work just fine. But as with any Op you can die pretty easy and you need a shield by a certain point. Nothing is really gonna change that.
Last edited by severen on Monday, 29th January 2018, 17:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Monday, 29th January 2018, 17:08

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Plantissue wrote:I think fighter is the only "reliable" Op start since it's the only background that actually gives you an actual defence from being instant killed by a random centaur or whatever. I suppose summons might work too if you have amazing conecntration abilities. Ironically I find octopode constrict meaning that Op is the one "caster" species which can reliably melee when out of MP on D:1.


I don't see how Shield provides reliable defense. EV is more reliable since it is not decreased by multiple attacks and shield does reduce EV when Centaurs are dangerous.
I checked my online octopode games and found that I won 1/3 OpVM and 1/1 OpTm. I assume OpCj should be even easier.


Having a shield is a gigantic difference on an Op.

I reccomend people think of their melee Op in terms of all three defenses combined. If you have 50 combined you are pretty good, you can do alright against a Death Yak. At 75 combined you are quite good you can do alright against a stone giant. At 100 combined you are really hard to hurt, by most things.

Of course some of these numbers are impossible without getting decent AC (100 combined is gonna need 20 or more AC probably). Then after this simple heuristic you should realize the numbers in each type of defense have certain implications. 50 combined with low AC (less than 10) means you can still take large hits and you need to be very attentive. If a large portion of your totalDef is SH you need to make sure you are not heavily surrounded. Also EV can help bolster certain weak resistances, i.e. it helps for cold res since many things are bolts (frost giants etc) but less so for fire (fireball).

Certainly for caster Op the casting penalty for a non-buckler may not be worth it. And as a general statement, OpIE is a more reliable start than any melee start (and I would argue than any other start period). I may not cultivate a shield on an OpIE until much later in the game.

Melee Op do not have the luxury of choosing EV or SH if they want to melee, you get as much of both as possible. 30 SH will make an Op vastly more survivable.

However, IMO, starting with a shield is such a radical advantage for an Op that I personally find OpFi (using UC as weapon) to be superior to Tr no matter what form they use (blade hands, ice form or what have you), except for certain corner cases such as hydra vs ice form (but not blade hands).

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Vajrapani

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Post Monday, 29th January 2018, 18:31

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

What's the difference between constriction and squeeze?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 29th January 2018, 19:29

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

severen wrote:Having a shield is a gigantic difference on an Op.


I should have made it clear that I am questioning shield usefulness early game only. Of course every (or almost?) octopode should use a shield. We were talking about Fighter background being the best and I don't see what's so good in shield vs Centaur. Being able to kill Centaur from distance is easier and more reliable than counting on shield to survive.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Monday, 29th January 2018, 21:57

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
severen wrote:Having a shield is a gigantic difference on an Op.


I should have made it clear that I am questioning shield usefulness early game only. Of course every (or almost?) octopode should use a shield. We were talking about Fighter background being the best and I don't see what's so good in shield vs Centaur. Being able to kill Centaur from distance is easier and more reliable than counting on shield to survive.

I'm not sure I understand, are you saying having a shield makes it harder to kill a Centaur from a distance? I mean shields might not help much in that specific case (I find that cautious exploration and a friendly corner is the best protection against early centaurs), but they certainly help against most other early threats.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Tuesday, 30th January 2018, 01:29

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

My current OpGl, that's likely to win (barring silly mistakes.):

I got pretty lucky with finding a book of frost, so this guy is basically a bootleg OpIE now + strong melee option in the form of the artifact quick blade.

Hep seems like a good choice of god as well, even if you don't have a shield, the ally still soaks up lots of hits, deals damage and functions (sort of) like a strong ranged attack.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.22-a0-117-g314b907 (webtiles) character file.

Vajrapani the Unseen (Octopode Gladiator)          Turns: 25005, Time: 00:52:16

Health: 80/89      AC: 11    Str: 14    XL:     14   Next: 12%
Magic:  23/23      EV: 25    Int: 11    God:    Hepliaklqana [******]
Gold:   416        SH:  6    Dex: 20    Spells: 18/25 levels left

rFire    + . .     SeeInvis +   a - +7 quick blade of Duty {freeze, Dex+3}
rCold    + . .     Gourm    +   G - +0 buckler
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   y - +1 hat
rPois    .         Spirit   .   o - amulet of the gourmand
rElec    .         Reflect  .   q - +3 ring of protection
rCorr    .         Harm     .   s - ring of protection from cold
MR       +....                  E - ring of wizardry
Stlth    ++++++++..             L - ring of stealth
HPRegen  0.24/turn              f - ring of protection from fire
MPRegen  0.18/turn              V - +3 ring of evasion
                                N - ring of see invisible
                                (no ring)

@: icy armour (expiring), slow
A: almost no armour, stealthy swim, amphibious, 8 rings, constrict 8, reduced
essence, camouflage 1, gelatinous body 1
a: Recall Ancestor, Ancestor Identity, Transference, Idealise, Renounce Religion


You are on level 2 of the Orcish Mines.
You worship Hepliaklqana.
Hepliaklqana is exalted by your worship.
You are full.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 18 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer.

You have collected 1382 gold pieces.
You have spent 966 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - the +7 quick blade of Duty (weapon) {freeze, Dex+3}
   (You acquired it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra
   injury to most foes and up to half again as much damage against particularly
   susceptible opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures.
   
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
 b - a +2 short sword of protection {ozo + ice beasts octo}
 F - a +1 dagger of venom
 K - a +1 rapier
 O - a scimitar
Missiles
 c - 5 throwing nets
 e - 631 stones (quivered)
 P - 72 poisoned needles
 Q - 5 javelins of penetration
Armour
 y - a +1 hat (worn)
 G - a +0 buckler (worn)
Magical Staves
 W - a staff of cold
Jewellery
 f - a ring of protection from fire (on tentacle)
 o - an amulet of the gourmand (around mantle)
 q - a +3 ring of protection (left tentacle)
 s - a ring of protection from cold (right tentacle)
 E - a ring of wizardry (on tentacle)
 L - a ring of stealth (on tentacle)
 N - a ring of see invisible (on tentacle)
 V - a +3 ring of evasion (on tentacle)
Wands
 i - a wand of random effects (49)
 v - a wand of polymorph (11)
 H - a wand of acid (26)
 J - a wand of digging (10)
 M - a wand of flame (14)
 S - a wand of iceblast (25)
Scrolls
 h - 3 scrolls of fog
 j - 7 scrolls of teleportation
 m - 9 scrolls of remove curse
 w - 3 scrolls of amnesia
 D - 2 scrolls of immolation
Potions
 g - a potion of agility
 k - a potion of mutation
 l - 8 potions of curing
 n - a lumpy inky potion
 r - a potion of might
 t - 4 potions of haste
 x - a ruby potion
 z - a potion of heal wounds
 A - 2 potions of flight
 B - 2 potions of lignification
 C - 2 potions of magic
 I - a fuming green potion
 T - 2 golden potions
 U - 2 potions of brilliance
Books
 p - a book of Frost   
   
    Spells                           Type                      Level
    a - Freeze                       Ice                           1
    b - Throw Frost                  Conjuration/Ice               2
    c - Ozocubu's Armour             Charms/Ice                    3
    d - Throw Icicle                 Conjuration/Ice               4
    e - Summon Ice Beast             Ice/Summoning                 4
 u - a book of Misfortune   
   
    Spells                           Type                      Level
    a - Confusing Touch              Hexes                         1
    b - Confuse                      Hexes                         3
    c - Gell's Gravitas              Translocation                 3
    d - Petrify                      Transmutation/Earth           4
    e - Metabolic Englaciation       Hexes/Ice                     5
    f - Yara's Violent Unravelling   Hexes/Transmutation           5
Miscellaneous
 R - a box of beasts
Comestibles
 d - 33 rations


   Skills:
 + Level 10.1 Fighting
 - Level 10.4 Short Blades
 - Level 2.0 Throwing
 + Level 10.4 Dodging
 + Level 15.1 Stealth
 - Level 4.7 Shields
 - Level 6.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 3.3 Charms
 - Level 5.0 Summonings
 - Level 6.8 Ice Magic
 * Level 4.4 Invocations


You have 18 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Ozocubu's Armour      Chrm/Ice       ##......     2%          3    ###....
b - Summon Ice Beast      Ice/Summ       ###.....     7%          4    ####...


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (10/15)            Temple (0/1) D:6            Lair (6/6) D:8
  Swamp (0/4) Lair:4       Spider (0/4) Lair:3          Orc (2/2) D:9
 Slime: Lair:5-6       Elf: Orc:2       

Altars:
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Gozag
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Wu Jian
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin

Shops:
D:6 =   D:7 =   Orc:1 }

Annotations:
D:3 Grinder
D:4 exclusions: 3 orcs, orc priest, orc warrior and orc wizard
Lair:1 exclusion: oklob plant


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You cannot wear most types of armour.
You are very stealthy in the water. (Stealth+)
You are amphibious.
You can wear up to eight rings at the same time.
You can use your tentacles to constrict eight enemies at once.
Your skin changes colour to match your surroundings (Stealth+).
Your rubbery body absorbs attacks. (AC +1, EV +1)
Your life essence is reduced to manifest your ancestor. (-10% HP)


Message History

Items here: )) [[
a long sword; a leather armour; a chain mail; a scimitar
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
You start resting. Eating one of 3 chunks of flesh.
You eat one of the 3 chunks of flesh. This raw flesh tastes great.
Eating one of 2 chunks of flesh. You eat one of the 2 chunks of flesh.
This raw flesh tastes great.
Eating a chunk of flesh. You eat the chunk of flesh.
This raw flesh tastes great.
You start resting.
Your icy armour starts to melt.
You regained 6 hp, and now have 79/89 hp.
MP restored: 23
You climb downwards.
There is a stone staircase leading up, spattered with blood here.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
Save game and exit?
Welcome back, Vajrapani the Octopode Gladiator.
Hepliaklqana says: Through your memory, the past survives and persists.

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####.........## ##........
#.............   .$......#
...............  ....#..##
............... .....#.##
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You can see the friendly [ H E R O ] the knight.

Vanquished Creatures
  Harold (Lair:2)
  The ghost of Klosterheim the Spear-Bearer, a journeyman DsMo of Makhleb (Lair:1)
  2 hydras
  An orc high priest (Orc:1)
  6 two-headed ogres
  An orc knight (Orc:1)
  A deep elf mage (D:9)
  An orc sorcerer (Orc:2)
  5 elephants (Lair:5)
  3 black mambas
  A torpor snail (Lair:2)
  4 spiny frogs
  3 komodo dragons
  4 rime drakes
  2 jumping spiders (Lair:3)
  2 trolls
  9 blink frogs
  12 hippogriffs
  20 yaks
  11 wyverns
  2 hungry ghosts
  A warg (Orc:2)
  7 water moccasins
  4 porcupines
  2 ice beasts (D:9)
  3 black bears
  15 orc warriors
  2 phantoms
  An eye of draining (D:10)
  3 wolves (Lair:3)
  A boggart (D:8)
  7 ogres
  2 centaurs
  7 crocodiles
  2 big kobolds
  10 bullfrogs
  2 wyvern skeletons (D:8)
  A scorpion (D:8)
  9 killer bees (D:9)
  3 howler monkeys
  6 jellies
  7 crimson imps
  2 centaur zombies
  2 quasits (D:8)
  Crazy Yiuf (D:3)
  2 hounds
  A gnoll shaman (D:6)
  9 orc priests
  12 orc wizards
  A bullfrog skeleton (D:10)
  3 worker ants
  A hound zombie (D:5)
  Robin (D:2)
  5 gnolls
  A howler monkey skeleton (D:7)
  7 adders
  4 river rats (Sewer)
  2 shadow imps
  6 oozes
  An adder zombie (D:9)
  An adder skeleton (D:4)
  4 worms
  4 leopard geckos
  46 orcs
  9 bats
  9 giant cockroaches
  18 goblins
  7 hobgoblins
  13 jackals
  5 quokkas
  2 ball pythons
  4 frilled lizards
  16 kobolds
  2 quokka skeletons (D:5)
  A quokka zombie (D:6)
  9 rats
398 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  Fannar (D:9)
  2 hydras (Lair:1)
  An orc high priest (Orc:1)
  Nergalle (Orc:1)
  A manticore (Lair:5)
  A black mamba (Lair:3)
  An elephant (Lair:5)
  A spiny frog (Lair:5)
  A rime drake (Lair:5)
  3 komodo dragons
  A troll (Orc:1)
  A hornet (D:9)
  5 blink frogs
  4 hippogriffs
  A redback (Lair:3)
  12 yaks
  10 basilisks (Lair:5)
  A steam dragon (Lair:2)
  3 porcupines
  4 orc warriors
  A necrophage (D:9)
  An ogre (D:7)
  A wolf (Lair:3)
  A bullfrog (D:8)
  A killer bee (D:9)
  A howler monkey (D:9)
  An orc priest (D:8)
  A hound (D:9)
  3 orc wizards
  2 gnolls
  2 adders
  5 oozes
  An adder zombie (D:6)
  18 orcs
  A giant cockroach (D:6)
  2 jackals (D:7)
  3 kobolds (D:9)
  3 plants
103 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  5 knights
  An ancestor (D:6)
  13 fungi
  13 plants
32 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 533 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Vajrapani the Octopode Gladiator began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 14/14 MP: 1/1
   208 | D:1      | You fall through a shaft!
   219 | D:2      | Noticed Robin
   227 | D:2      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 12/19 MP: 2/2
   234 | D:2      | Killed Robin
   234 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Stealth
   250 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 12/24 MP: 3/3
   441 | D:2      | Vajrapani: ??uskayaw
   441 | D:2      | beem: uskayaw[1/6]: God of ecstatic dance. Piety raises very quickly as you deal damage and drops very quickly over time. *: Stomp for AOE damage. **: Teleport through a line of creatures, confusing them. ***: on reaching this piety level, briefly paralyze all enemies in LOS. ****: On reaching this piety level, monsters share damage. *****: Telefrag any monster in LOS.
  1537 | D:2      | Reached skill level 2 in Stealth
  1755 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 25/30 MP: 4/4
  2172 | D:3      | Noticed Grinder
  3214 | D:3      | Found a runed door.
  3218 | D:3      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  3224 | D:3      | Killed Crazy Yiuf
  3224 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 30/36 MP: 5/5
  3418 | D:3      | Reached skill level 3 in Stealth
  3634 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 19/42 MP: 6/6
  4196 | D:3      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  4196 | D:3      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
  4247 | D:3      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  4322 | D:2      | noice
  4422 | D:4      | Noticed an orc warrior
  4673 | D:4      | Found a glowing drain.
  4694 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  4994 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 5 in Short Blades
  5008 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 4 in Stealth
  5040 | Sewer    | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  5091 | D:4      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  5619 | D:4      | Found a hazy altar of Hepliaklqana.
  5620 | D:4      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  5620 | D:4      | Noticed a tentacled monstrosity
  5621 | D:4      | Noticed a tentacled monstrosity
  5621 | D:4      | Noticed a spectral ugly thing
  5652 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  5653 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 47/47 MP: 7/7
  5854 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Ozocubu's Armour
  6169 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
  6524 | D:4      | Became a worshipper of Hepliaklqana the Forgotten
  6580 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 29/48 MP: 8/8
  6726 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  7043 | D:6      | Found an ornate altar of the Wu Jian Council.
  7080 | D:6      | Found Kegearaemp's Jewellery Shop.
  7124 | D:6      | Bought an uncursed ring of wizardry for 390 gold pieces
  7136 | D:6      | Reached * piety under Hepliaklqana
  7195 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Ice Magic
  7318 | D:6      | Reached skill level 6 in Stealth
  7318 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
  7545 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  8084 | D:7      | Found Ecry's Jewellery Shop.
  8122 | D:7      | Reached skill level 7 in Stealth
  8127 | D:7      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  8140 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 53/53 MP: 9/9
  8609 | D:7      | Learned a level 4 spell: Summon Ice Beast
  8626 | D:7      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
  8694 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic
  8832 | D:7      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  8888 | D:7      | Reached skill level 8 in Stealth
  8888 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Summonings
  9115 | D:8      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  9145 | D:8      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  9216 | D:8      | Reached ** piety under Hepliaklqana
  9217 | D:8      | Vajrapani: ??hep ancestor
  9217 | D:8      | beem: I don't have a page labeled hep_ancestor in my learndb.
  9217 | D:8      | Vajrapani: ??hep
  9217 | D:8      | beem: hepliaklqana[1/4]: God of ancestral memory. Grants a powerful, customizable permanent ancestor, which will be automatically revived if slain (after a few dozen turns). Likes exploration. 0*: ally & recall, 2*: {Remember Life}, 3*: {Transference}, 4*: {Idealise}, 5*: Transference-drain
  9217 | D:8      | Vajrapani: ??knight
  9217 | D:8      | beem: ancestor[3/6]: Knight: melee companion. Starts with a flail, a shield, and bonus AC; 7 + HD/2. XL 15: Flail replaced with flaming broad axe. XL 19: Haste and shield becomes a large shield of reflect. XL 24: Weapon ego changes to speed.
  9217 | D:8      | Vajrapani: ??battlemage
  9217 | D:8      | beem: ancestor[4/6]: Battlemage: hybrid companion. Starts with throw frost, stone arrow, a quarterstaff, and bonus melee damage: 3 + HD. XL 15: Replace Throw Frost with Bolt of Magma. XL 19: Haste and a lajatang of freezing. XL 24: stone arrow -> crystal spear.
  9217 | D:8      | beem: unknown monster: "bolt of fire"
  9217 | D:8      | Vajrapani: ??hexer
  9217 | D:8      | beem: ancestor[5/6]: Hexer: support companion. Starts with a dagger, Slow, and Confuse. XL 15: Slow -> Paralyse. XL 19: Replace Confuse with Mass Confusion and Haste. XL 24: dagger replaced by antimagic quickblade.
  9217 | D:8      | Remembered your ancestor [ H E R O ] as a knight
  9577 | D:8      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  9586 | D:8      | Killed a two-headed ogre
  9586 | D:8      | Reached skill level 9 in Stealth
  9592 | D:8      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  9657 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 58/58 MP: 10/10
  9666 | D:8      | Killed a two-headed ogre
 10172 | D:8      | Killed a two-headed ogre
 10172 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 10172 | D:8      | Reached skill level 10 in Stealth
 10189 | D:8      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
 10719 | D:9      | Noticed a deep elf mage
 11122 | D:9      | Killed a deep elf mage
 11122 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Summonings
 11273 | D:9      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 54/64 MP: 7/11
 11284 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 11410 | D:9      | Reached *** piety under Hepliaklqana
 11864 | D:9      | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 11866 | D:9      | Killed a two-headed ogre
 11866 | D:9      | Reached skill level 11 in Stealth
 12137 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 13157 | D:10     | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 13752 | D:10     | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal.
 14217 | D:10     | Killed a two-headed ogre
 14217 | D:10     | Reached skill level 1 in Spellcasting
 14366 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 14366 | Lair:1   | Noticed Klosterheim's ghost (journeyman DsMo)
 14652 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 14652 | Orc:1    | Reached **** piety under Hepliaklqana
 14652 | Orc:1    | Found Geury's Gadget Emporium.
 14652 | Orc:1    | Noticed Fannar
 14720 | Lair:1   | Killed Klosterheim's ghost
 14720 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 12 in Stealth
 15408 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 71/71 MP: 16/16
 16368 | Lair:1   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
 16382 | Lair:1   | Killed a four-headed hydra
 16734 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
 16946 | Lair:1   | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 16960 | Lair:1   | Killed a seven-headed hydra
 17086 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 13 in Stealth
 17485 | Lair:2   | Noticed Harold
 17994 | Lair:2   | Reached ***** piety under Hepliaklqana
 18383 | Lair:2   | Killed Harold
 18745 | Lair:3   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 19060 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 10 in Short Blades
 19986 | Lair:4   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 69/79 MP: 19/22
 20072 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 20085 | Lair:3   | Vajrapani: ??flail
 20085 | Lair:3   | beem: flail[1/1]: (maces & flails; +0 acc / 10 dam / 1.4 base delay / 0.7 min delay). A mace with a short chain connecting the head to the haft.
 20270 | Lair:3   | Vajrapani: ??knight
 20270 | Lair:3   | beem: ancestor[3/6]: Knight: melee companion. Starts with a flail, a shield, and bonus AC; 7 + HD/2. XL 15: Flail replaced with flaming broad axe. XL 19: Haste and shield becomes a large shield of reflect. XL 24: Weapon ego changes to speed.
 20270 | Lair:3   | Vajrapani: ??broad axe
 20270 | Lair:3   | beem: broad axe[1/2]: (axes; -2 acc / 13 dam / 1.6 base delay / 0.7 min delay). A war axe improved with langets, spikes, a lengthed haft and a single-bladed crescent head. The largest one handed axe.
 20465 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 14 in Stealth
 20869 | Lair:4   | You fall through a shaft!
 20869 | Lair:5   | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
 20877 | Lair:5   | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 20880 | Lair:5   | Got a shimmering quick blade
 20881 | Lair:5   | Identified the +7 quick blade of Duty {freeze, Dex+3} (You acquired it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)
 21568 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
 23103 | Lair:6   | Entered Level 6 of the Lair of Beasts
 23543 | D:7      | Bought an uncursed ring of see invisible for 240 gold pieces
 23543 | D:7      | Bought a +3 ring of evasion for 336 gold pieces
 23619 | Orc:1    | Noticed Nergalle
 23642 | D:9      | Killed Fannar
 23798 | Orc:1    | Killed Nergalle
 23835 | Orc:1    | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 23892 | Orc:1    | Reached ****** piety under Hepliaklqana
 24092 | Orc:2    | Entered Level 2 of the Orcish Mines
 24143 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 15 in Stealth
 24143 | Orc:2    | Reached XP level 14. HP: 53/88 MP: 23/23
 24556 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 |
---------------+-------------------------------------------+-----
Stealth        |     1  2     3  4  5  7  9 10 12 13 15    | 15.1
Short Blades   |           4     5  6     7  8    10       | 10.4
Fighting       |              3     4        5  6  8  9 10 | 10.1
Dodging        |              4        5        7  8 10    | 10.4
Ice Magic      |                       3  5     6          |  6.8
Charms         |                       2  3                |  3.3
Summonings     |                          1  5             |  5.0
Shields        |                          3  4             |  4.7
Spellcasting   |                                3  6       |  6.0
Invocations    |                                      3  4 |  4.4
Throwing       |                                           |  2.0

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Rapier            |    80 |   118 |   137 |       |       ||   335
       Constrict         |    21 |    35 |    53 |    76 |    27 ||   212
       Tentacles         |    14 |    25 |    71 |   171 |   124 ||   405
       Dagger            |       |       |   116 |   197 |       ||   313
       Short sword       |       |       |       |   413 |    67 ||   480
       Quick blade       |       |       |       |       |   316 ||   316
Throw: Throwing net      |     1 |     1 |       |       |       ||     2
       Stone             |       |       |     7 |     6 |     2 ||    15
 Cast: Ozocubu's Armour  |       |       |     4 |    33 |    21 ||    58
       Summon Ice Beast  |       |       |       |    49 |    47 ||    96
Invok: Ancestor Identity |       |       |     2 |       |       ||     2
       Recall Ancestor   |       |       |     5 |    11 |     6 ||    22
       Ancestor Life: Kn |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |     4 |     4 ||     8
       Box of beasts     |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |       |     7 |     2 |    17 |     4 ||    30
       Potion            |       |       |     1 |     3 |       ||     4
 Stab: Sleeping          |     1 |     8 |    13 |    30 |    22 ||    74
       Distracted        |       |       |     2 |    13 |     5 ||    20
  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |    16 |    29 |    50 |    22 ||   119
       Ration            |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
Armor: Skin              |     8 |     8 |    42 |    90 |    29 ||   177
Dodge: Dodged            |    40 |    64 |   201 |   318 |   164 ||   787
Block: Buckler           |       |       |     1 |   109 |    50 ||   160

Table legend:
 A = Spawn XP
 B = Non-spawn XP
 C = Spawn XP percentage of total XP
 D = Spawn monster count
 E = Non-spawn monster count
 F = Spawn count percentage of total count
 G = Total turns spent on level

                 A         B        C        D         E        F        G   
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+---------
      Total |       0 |   58396 |   0.0 |       0 |     498 |   0.0 |   25005
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+---------
        D:1 |       0 |      28 |   0.0 |       0 |      17 |   0.0 |     900
        D:2 |       0 |      83 |   0.0 |       0 |      32 |   0.0 |    1957
        D:3 |       0 |     269 |   0.0 |       0 |      26 |   0.0 |    1535
        D:4 |       0 |      63 |   0.0 |       0 |       9 |   0.0 |    1100
        D:5 |       0 |     519 |   0.0 |       0 |      27 |   0.0 |     994
        D:6 |       0 |    1211 |   0.0 |       0 |      30 |   0.0 |    1429
        D:7 |       0 |     966 |   0.0 |       0 |      27 |   0.0 |     862
        D:8 |       0 |    4101 |   0.0 |       0 |      48 |   0.0 |    1991
        D:9 |       0 |    5513 |   0.0 |       0 |      66 |   0.0 |    2147
       D:10 |       0 |    4704 |   0.0 |       0 |      26 |   0.0 |    1901
     Lair:1 |       0 |    7416 |   0.0 |       0 |      38 |   0.0 |    2479
     Lair:2 |       0 |    3720 |   0.0 |       0 |      18 |   0.0 |    1437
     Lair:3 |       0 |    4664 |   0.0 |       0 |      24 |   0.0 |    1616
     Lair:4 |       0 |    5818 |   0.0 |       0 |      21 |   0.0 |    1139
     Lair:5 |       0 |   10576 |   0.0 |       0 |      43 |   0.0 |    1857
     Lair:6 |       0 |    1531 |   0.0 |       0 |       3 |   0.0 |      35
      Orc:1 |       0 |    4314 |   0.0 |       0 |      18 |   0.0 |     690
      Orc:2 |       0 |    2738 |   0.0 |       0 |      14 |   0.0 |     554
      Sewer |       0 |     162 |   0.0 |       0 |      11 |   0.0 |     382
            +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+---------



Btw, how is my skilling on this guy? Is there too much, or too little, of short blades/fighting/dodging/stealth etc.?
Attachments
opgl^hep.png
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16/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm, OpSk

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 30th January 2018, 05:21

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

I'm not sure I understand, are you saying having a shield makes it harder to kill a Centaur from a distance? I mean shields might not help much in that specific case (I find that cautious exploration and a friendly corner is the best protection against early centaurs), but they certainly help against most other early threats.

I am saying Fighter background does not have a way to kill Centaur from a distance. Compare to most book backgrounds, Ar, Hu, probably Wn. Also EV is decreased by shield, Ce can shoot twice in a turn and second shot is unlikely to be blocked.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6163

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Tuesday, 30th January 2018, 06:09

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
I'm not sure I understand, are you saying having a shield makes it harder to kill a Centaur from a distance? I mean shields might not help much in that specific case (I find that cautious exploration and a friendly corner is the best protection against early centaurs), but they certainly help against most other early threats.

I am saying Fighter background does not have a way to kill Centaur from a distance. Compare to most book backgrounds, Ar, Hu, probably Wn. Also EV is decreased by shield, Ce can shoot twice in a turn and second shot is unlikely to be blocked.

Ah, I had the impression you were comparing Fi to Gl (Neither of which has a ranged attack to start with).
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 30th January 2018, 07:12

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Siegurt wrote:Ah, I had the impression you were comparing Fi to Gl (Neither of which has a ranged attack to start with).


We had this discussion before (even with some fsims!) and I had impression that everyone agreed about Fi superiority early game.
Later it can be a good idea to drop the shield especially with strong fast weapon like whip of electro where attack delay is worse than decreased defense.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Spider Stomper

Posts: 212

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Post Tuesday, 30th January 2018, 13:48

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Is a shield less reliable defence than EV without a shield against a centaur? What if you play the tactics to mitigate arrows. Does it particularily matter? Someone can run the numbers. I don't know how to Would it be better to have a book or ranged start to kill a centaur? Possibly. Is the EV loss from the shield for a fighter start even that significant? It doesn't matter. Either way for an octopode a Fighter has a more reliable defence than other start is my feeling that may or may not be accurate. The random centaur or whatever is just an example of a random monster with damage spike. A fighter is RNG independent simply becuase it starts with a shield. Probably not helpful to vajrapani since he already won as an OpFi though.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

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Post Tuesday, 30th January 2018, 14:11

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Unfortunately fsim does not support testing ranged attack of a monster and I am too lazy to calculate to_hit chance of centaur vs level 3 OpFi with shield and OpGl without shield when centaur attacks twice in a turn. I don't think it is that important because you still will want to use shield, it is strictly superior when fighting normal speed monster like gnoll or "unescapable" ogre.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 30th January 2018, 16:23

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Some as-yet unmentioned advice. Have been playing OpAs for the last year, am greaterOctopode.

- The old adage of "train offense first" doesnt quite apply to Op. Your constriction gives you superior damage output against anything constrictable.(notable exceptions are centaur/yaks). And you actually need these points in dodging, otherwise the first centaur/bee will wreck you.

- In fact that goes so far as to allow you to exclusively train fighting/dodging and kill mostly everything with a venom dagger until D:8 or so if inclined. (not recommended, but possible).

- train stealth. Its laughably cheap and will safe your hide. 6 points until D:4 are fine, by lair go up to 10ish.

- Ashenzari is an overlooked Op goddess. Shield OR hat gives you already half armour cursed status; shields are easy to come by, OpGl and OpWz start with a hat. Cursed hat gives at ** piety gives huge dodging/stealth bonus. For jewellry you need 5 usable pieces plus curse scrolls,so thats more of midlair thing; but then it allows you to be half cursed and still have plenty of swappable ring slots. * piety allows you to pick your battles very carefully.

- Great shields on early Op dont work. You get too much hits in without being able to block enough.

- I love OpAs. +2 dagger, stealth and curare/blowgun gives you a very breezy D:1-4.

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Airwolf, nago, Vajrapani

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Post Tuesday, 30th January 2018, 19:28

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Reposted from another similar thread:
Lasty wrote:There are two parts of the game where Op is stronger than average: D:1-2, where your constricting aux does more work than low-skill melee, and post-endgame, where you can take advantage of having more slots than other races. In between, Op is mostly harder than average.

In terms of the best way to play melee Op, start by ignoring every single specific case in Berder's guide, aside from the common-sense stuff that applies to all characters (e.g. use a blowgun if you have one). All the gods that are normally good are still good for melee Op, but ones that give extra defense of some sort are better than normal (Dith, Fedhas, Ru, Yred, Kiku, even Qaz) as are the ones that give ways to harm things that aren't standing next to you (Veh, Makh, Fedhas, Qaz, Ru, Lucy, etc.). Dodging and Stealth are your defensive skills, and you have little excuse not to get a few levels of both early in the game. Shields are better for you than average, but not so much so that you need to abandon a good early two-hander. Branching into spells is definitely worth doing.

Edit:
Here are a few examples of melee-start Ops, covering a range of different approaches:
OpGl^Dith, specializing in hexes w/ Majin Bo: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 214038.txt
OpFi^Qaz, specializing in kicking ass with a vamp broad axe and Qaz invocations: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 003945.txt
OpCK^Xom, stabbing, large shield, evocations, summoning: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 215141.txt
OpAK^Lucy, great mace of protection, summoning: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Lasty/morgu ... 023609.txt


To address one specific thing from this thread, octopodes are melee glass cannons in general -- high damage, low defense. They can take anything in melee just fine, but you will need to correctly assess the level of damage you'll be taking in return. In particular, anything that AC is the best defense against -- hydras, trolls, deep trolls -- will tend to be much more dangerous than you're used to.

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Post Wednesday, 31st January 2018, 01:33

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Lasty wrote: All the gods that are normally good are still good for melee Op, but ones that give extra defense of some sort are better than normal (Dith, Fedhas, Ru, Yred, Kiku, even Qaz) as are the ones that give ways to harm things that aren't standing next to you (Veh, Makh, Fedhas, Qaz, Ru, Lucy, etc.). Dodging and Stealth are your defensive skills, and you have little excuse not to get a few levels of both early in the game. Shields are better for you than average, but not so much so that you need to abandon a good early two-hander. Branching into spells is definitely worth doing.

(Emphasis added)
Does Chei not give extra EV? What's the range on Slouch? ;)

Also worth noting the the formula for SH is based on dex/strength, depending on the size of the shield. I think aux attacks generally are as well, and constriction is based on strength.

OpFi: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Tason ... 085743.txt (Chei)
OpNe: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Tason ... 093018.txt (Chei)
OpHu: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Tason ... 103421.txt (Gozag)

All of them used statue form and unarmed, although Ne gets to start with pain and Hu used a lot of slings early, then used maces, then switched to UC. Gozag can be pretty fun once you get 1-2 jewelry shops, but that's subject to random chance of actually rolling them, which can be frustrating. Potion petition is strong but you have limited uses of it, especially if you're trying to save up to buy jewelry.

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Post Wednesday, 31st January 2018, 02:41

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Chei does add defensive and offensive power to all characters, tho at the cost of weakening the best defensive tool of all. More notably, Chei doesn't help octopodes wear heavy armor, making the god almost as bad for them as for draconians.

Unarmed combat is not particularly better for Op than for other species. As for most species, for Op UC is weaker than weapons early, and only becomes on par or possibly better towards the late game, unless claws or forms are used. UC is not a particularly fast form of combat until very high skill levels; only top-end weapons require more skill to hit 0.7 speed than UC. UC also doesn't benefit from lucky weapon or scroll drops, though it does benefit from lucky book drops if using forms.

Neither Chei nor UC is sufficiently below par to be terrible for Op, but neither are they actively good choices. Both tend to make the early game harder and then even out eventually. Players who focus on the mid to late game will tend to appreciate both more.

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nago

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Post Wednesday, 31st January 2018, 03:13

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

severen's advice about considering AC,EV,SH as a combined number is quite interesting. I have not found statue, but a lot of protection rings :D , and I have an OpGl^Gozag with 23/28/19 defences (including Ozo) which is 70 combined.

And, sure enough, I can melee tough opponents in vaults/elf/depths quite easily. And, even if the damage spikes happen, my health is large enough to take it, and I also have built up enough escape resources at this point to not care.

I feel like if I can overcome the lair branches consistently on an octopode, then I can win consistently on any background. A shield (with sufficient training.) is actually quite a massive difference and lets me do that quite easily.
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16/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm, OpSk

Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 1st February 2018, 23:37

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Ok, I won that OpGl. Switched to Makhleb in the lategame, from Gozag, because I prefer heal-on-kills on species with low-ish defences + my spell hunger was causing me to run dangerously low on rations and I'd rather not spend all my piety/gold on food shops to alleviate that issue.

This guy was won entirely without statue form, or any forms whatsoever. He was pretty much melee(+ ozo armour) until elf/early depths, where he picked up shadow creatures and summon hydra.

Later on, in late depth, after doing V:5 and slime, I got dragon call castable, which made Zot and the orbrun a cakewalk.

Earlier in my crawl-playing career, I just assumed that octopodes NEEDED statue form or they would have a very hard time playing through the game. But, this game was quite simple all the way through, It just required some tactical awareness and me actually using my consumables.

Thanks everyone for the advice! I used used pretty much every post in here to inform my octopode playstyle, and it payed off.

I actually quite like playing octopodes now :D.
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16/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm, OpSk

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Airwolf

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 2nd February 2018, 01:47

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Congrats! And yeah you certainly don't have to use statue form to win, it's just the easiest way to get high AC on an octopode (or felid). If you do get lucky and find multiple high protection rings, that's certainly sufficient, and you had a total of +20 AC in four rings, which is quite good. You aren't too likely to find that many in most games, although you'll probably get at least 10 somewhat reliably by the time you're entering vaults.

I might add Octopode of Gozag to my "to play again soon" list - I've won one before but it's always fun to play your favorites again :)

Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 16th February 2018, 19:35

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

Lasty wrote:Chei does add defensive and offensive power to all characters, tho at the cost of weakening the best defensive tool of all. More notably, Chei doesn't help octopodes wear heavy armor, making the god almost as bad for them as for draconians.

Unarmed combat is not particularly better for Op than for other species. As for most species, for Op UC is weaker than weapons early, and only becomes on par or possibly better towards the late game, unless claws or forms are used. UC is not a particularly fast form of combat until very high skill levels; only top-end weapons require more skill to hit 0.7 speed than UC. UC also doesn't benefit from lucky weapon or scroll drops, though it does benefit from lucky book drops if using forms.

Neither Chei nor UC is sufficiently below par to be terrible for Op, but neither are they actively good choices. Both tend to make the early game harder and then even out eventually. Players who focus on the mid to late game will tend to appreciate both more.


One of the reasons I like UC on Op is specifically due to the interaction with shields. Namely you still get your UC aux offhand attack. Otherwise I mostly agree, in that raw UC is not particularly special damage wise. However, for whatever reason, I don't agree that it tends to make the early game harder for Op. In fact I have found the exact opposite. I am not entirely sure why and this is quite subjective, but the method I have developed for pure melee Op is to rush UC to about 10 this seems to be very reliable. It is actually the mid-game that I feel raw UC more obviously falls off some. Even for a god like Trog that gifts weapons (however the extra aux of op benefits from berserk quite well).

This is a 3 rune OpBe (pure, no leaving Trog) win I did a few weeks ago using the methods I have sketched out: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/severenx/morgue-severenx-20180131-175235.txt
Considering he killed Mennas, Donald, Sojobo, and Boris on V2 as well as Khufu+ 2 greater mummies in crypt. It wasn't really an easy run.

During some of the various attempts I made I purposely did weapons instead of UC and it still felt to me like UC was more reliably useful in the early game, even with trog gifts. Certainly if you find a +9 sacred scourge early it is just flat out better.

As for the later game, meh, if you are not trog you can do forms so its pertty favorable to do UC as Op but weapons are fine. If you are Trog I am not sure but UC OP with shield when you are berserk is pretty good, the extra damage on berserk makes the extra aux hit pretty hard. Either way you can kill OOFs in berserk just fine, but not in berserk was rough.

Again the overall analysis is correct, raw UC is not that special but is adequate for killing anything in the game (including Cerebov,Antaeus etc). But the pre-lair game to me seems more reliable when I do the rush UC to 10 method. I am not entirely certain why. Without forms I resign myself to a somewhat mediore mid-game (unless I get a really early form book, I tend toward dragon form and not statue form nowadays).

Spider Stomper

Posts: 216

Joined: Saturday, 29th October 2016, 17:41

Post Friday, 16th February 2018, 20:00

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

le_nerd wrote:Some as-yet unmentioned advice. Have been playing OpAs for the last year, am greaterOctopode.

- The old adage of "train offense first" doesnt quite apply to Op. Your constriction gives you superior damage output against anything constrictable.(notable exceptions are centaur/yaks). And you actually need these points in dodging, otherwise the first centaur/bee will wreck you.

- In fact that goes so far as to allow you to exclusively train fighting/dodging and kill mostly everything with a venom dagger until D:8 or so if inclined. (not recommended, but possible).

- train stealth. Its laughably cheap and will safe your hide. 6 points until D:4 are fine, by lair go up to 10ish.

- Ashenzari is an overlooked Op goddess. Shield OR hat gives you already half armour cursed status; shields are easy to come by, OpGl and OpWz start with a hat. Cursed hat gives at ** piety gives huge dodging/stealth bonus. For jewellry you need 5 usable pieces plus curse scrolls,so thats more of midlair thing; but then it allows you to be half cursed and still have plenty of swappable ring slots. * piety allows you to pick your battles very carefully.

- Great shields on early Op dont work. You get too much hits in without being able to block enough.

- I love OpAs. +2 dagger, stealth and curare/blowgun gives you a very breezy D:1-4.


These are all good points that I agree with as viable strategies, although I usually do not train dodge a ton unless I have high dex (for whatever reason, Bg or lucky ring). Ash is very good for Op, I personally hate going ash because you can't swap rings and sometimes finding a hat takes forever (I have gone 8 runes without finding a hat before). No doubt its good, but I personally hate it and will never play Op of Ash.

I wanted to add specifically about shields. For the start you definitely need to balance your shield versus all three negatives it can cause. A large shield is initially a prohibitive EV penalty and probably too much of an attack penalty. So finding an early large shield in the absence of another alternative is nice for later but won't help much earlier. A normal shield is typically fine with 3 or so skill as far as pure melee, usually you take something like a -2 EV for 7 or so SH which I find is a good trade. However you take a serious casting hit until you shield skills is 10+ and for certain starts or due to lucky book drop this can be a major concern. There are no easy rules to sketch out here for this but it is definitely an important part of running an Op. Bucklers are not problematic in any special way. I have had OpFi find the IE book early a few times and balancing casting versus using shield can be a torturous decision, especially since Fi start much less smart and the shield penalty is that much more important.

Op defense can be very skill dependent so making inefficient skilling choices can really make you struggle to stay alive and under certain circumstance your defense skilling choice are not at all straightforward. I mean you will always train dodge eventually, but relative to other skills, including casting skills, it can be tricky.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 16th February 2018, 23:17

Re: Octopode top tips pls? (Going for greateroctopode.)

It's worth training dodging even on characters with low dexterity, you would probably just train it less. The first few levels of a skill being very cheap means it's almost always wrong to not train a skill you're "using", and all characters use dodging. Almost all characters use armor (unless octopode/felid), all characters use fighting, anyone non-Trog probably uses spellcasting, etc. You might not want those skills very high, and if I only had 10 dex and never expected to get any more, I'd probably keep dodging low, but I wouldn't say that I'd never train it.

And as far making it worthwhile to get decent dodging skill, I'd say 15 dex is plenty. Any character can reach that if they decide to put a few points in dex, or if they happen to have +3 dex gloves, etc.

I'd agree it isn't your first priority (some sort of offensive skill is), but I don't put it off too terribly long.

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