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duvessa wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:It takes too much time and effort to kill orbs of fire with fire storm in my experience (read: 60 MP as DE of Vehumet wasn't enough).
Interesting that you include your god but not your spellpower...

IMO fire storm is the best spell in the game against orbs of fire. Yes, it takes more casts than Glaciate to kill them, but it still does a lot of damage, it has twice the range, and orbs of fire are completely incapable of damaging fire vortices, so they shield you from fireballs and polymorph.

And shatter does literally no damage to orbs of fire. They're insubstantial.

What do you mean by that it has twice the range? Glaciate has range 6, whilst firestorm has range 5 +2 for area. It's a difference, but not anywhere close to twice the range.

In my experience it takes an average of 3/4 glaciates and 5 for a fire storm to kill an orb of fire. There is a chance that you will run out of MP to kill an Orb of Fire whilst for Glaciate it is unlikely. I do suppose that the abilty to shield from fireballs and polymorph can make it the best spell, but if you care so much about that then surely summon spells would be far better.

Plantissue wrote:
duvessa wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:It takes too much time and effort to kill orbs of fire with fire storm in my experience (read: 60 MP as DE of Vehumet wasn't enough).
Interesting that you include your god but not your spellpower...

IMO fire storm is the best spell in the game against orbs of fire. Yes, it takes more casts than Glaciate to kill them, but it still does a lot of damage, it has twice the range, and orbs of fire are completely incapable of damaging fire vortices, so they shield you from fireballs and polymorph.

And shatter does literally no damage to orbs of fire. They're insubstantial.

What do you mean by that it has twice the range? Glaciate has range 6, whilst firestorm has range 5 +2 for area. It's a difference, but not anywhere close to twice the range.

In my experience it takes an average of 3/4 glaciates and 5 for a fire storm to kill an orb of fire. There is a chance that you will run out of MP to kill an Orb of Fire whilst for Glaciate it is unlikely. I do suppose that the abilty to shield from fireballs and polymorph can make it the best spell, but if you care so much about that then surely summon spells would be far better.

Glaciate only does full damage at range 3 and closer, it falls off to 1/2 damage at full range

Plantissue wrote:I do suppose that the abilty to shield from fireballs and polymorph can make it the best spell, but if you care so much about that then surely summon spells would be far better.

I made some tests with Wiz mode.
Crystal Spear and Iron Shot miss a lot. I mean, a LOT. They are good... when they hit.
The most efficient high level spell was Dragon Call.
Three dragons can kill easily an Orb of Fire.

d3k0 wrote:Crystal Spear and Iron Shot miss a lot. I mean, a LOT.

What was your spellpower?

The easiest (least requirements) way for a spell caster to kill an orb of fire:

* Put a lightning spire in-between you and the orb, with one extra space between you and the spire so you don't take fire damage from orb fireballs
* Alternate air strike on the orb, channeling mana with a staff of energy, and renewing the spire when it gets killed.

A potion of brilliance goes a long ways towards this plan being less of a headache. A potion of mana may also be needed if you're not a very strong caster.
This technique has the advantage of only needing low level spells and blocking 100% of malmutations. You also typically have enough time to escape if you can tell in advance that it's not going well. You're welcome

My input, because I just did a game with DECj^Vehumet a few days ago.

The combo seemed really strong. I never really felt like I was struggling at any point of the game. Cj with a good caster race will get you through lair just in time for vehu to give you your next spells to transition to. If you are gifted conjure flame (I wasn't) it's even easier in lair.

I didn't train any melee and only ever melee'd two mobs, mana vipers, both were trivial but had annoyingly followed me up stairs when I was oom. I could have dealt with them any number of ways. Getting firestorm online before I even entered vault made the game total cruise control. Vault 5 was the only rough patch but with some advice and practice I am sure I could achieve over 50% winrate with this combo (I am not a good player and have not played much since around .15).

As for OoF, I firestormed them. Mainly because all I had was a hammer so I made everything a nail. I ran out of juice against one OoF and so had to run away and rest but otherwise the killing went smoothly.

d3k0 wrote:
Code:
You knew the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Bolt of Cold Conj/Ice #######... 1% 6 ##..... b - Throw Flame Conj/Fire ###### 0% 2 None c - Conjure Flame Conj/Fire ######## 0% 3 None e - Fireball Conj/Fire ########.. 0% 5 None f - Mephitic Cloud Conj/Pois/Air ######.. 1% 3 None g - Force Lance Conj/Tloc #######. 1% 4 None h - Venom Bolt Conj/Pois #######... 1% 5 None i - Freezing Cloud Conj/Ice/Air #######... 1% 6 ##..... j - Bolt of Magma Conj/Fire/Erth #######... 1% 5 None k - Fire Storm Conj/Fire ########.. 11% 9 ####### m - Ring of Flames Chrm/Fire #######... 3% 7 ####...

Get some of these next time: OoD, Iron shot, eventually Crystal spear, LRD , Spellforged Servitor and (my favourite) Poison Arrow.
Try Spellforged Servitor, in combination with spells I mentioned he can be really good help.

tasonir wrote:As good as conjure flame is, if you're going to be a gargoyle I'd take EE as a background. LRD is pretty fun, and sandblast/stone arrow will handle all your early game threats. It's also irresistible, which I like a lot.

Stone arrow is helpful not only early but also mid game in combination with Iskenderun's Battlesphere.

TonberryJam wrote:For the EE example, I would spend most of the time training spellcasting and earth magic. Save sand blast and rocks for anything tough early game, as it works wonders. Petrify is great against packs, especially in corridors. LRD is great. You just hug walls and monsters will always be close to walls.

Also theres the trick: in a group of monsters you can Petrify one of them and use LRD on it if there are no walls around.

Eyesburn wrote:
d3k0 wrote:
Code:
You knew the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Bolt of Cold Conj/Ice #######... 1% 6 ##..... b - Throw Flame Conj/Fire ###### 0% 2 None c - Conjure Flame Conj/Fire ######## 0% 3 None e - Fireball Conj/Fire ########.. 0% 5 None f - Mephitic Cloud Conj/Pois/Air ######.. 1% 3 None g - Force Lance Conj/Tloc #######. 1% 4 None h - Venom Bolt Conj/Pois #######... 1% 5 None i - Freezing Cloud Conj/Ice/Air #######... 1% 6 ##..... j - Bolt of Magma Conj/Fire/Erth #######... 1% 5 None k - Fire Storm Conj/Fire ########.. 11% 9 ####### m - Ring of Flames Chrm/Fire #######... 3% 7 ####...
Get some of these next time: OoD, Iron shot, eventually Crystal spear, LRD , Spellforged Servitor and (my favourite) Poison Arrow.
Try Spellforged Servitor, in combination with spells I mentioned he can be really good help.

sees spell list with Fire Storm, 9 other conjurations, Ring of Flames, and no other spells

You know what this spell list needs? More conjurations

duvessa wrote:
Eyesburn wrote:
d3k0 wrote:
Code:
You knew the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Bolt of Cold Conj/Ice #######... 1% 6 ##..... b - Throw Flame Conj/Fire ###### 0% 2 None c - Conjure Flame Conj/Fire ######## 0% 3 None e - Fireball Conj/Fire ########.. 0% 5 None f - Mephitic Cloud Conj/Pois/Air ######.. 1% 3 None g - Force Lance Conj/Tloc #######. 1% 4 None h - Venom Bolt Conj/Pois #######... 1% 5 None i - Freezing Cloud Conj/Ice/Air #######... 1% 6 ##..... j - Bolt of Magma Conj/Fire/Erth #######... 1% 5 None k - Fire Storm Conj/Fire ########.. 11% 9 ####### m - Ring of Flames Chrm/Fire #######... 3% 7 ####...
Get some of these next time: OoD, Iron shot, eventually Crystal spear, LRD , Spellforged Servitor and (my favourite) Poison Arrow.
Try Spellforged Servitor, in combination with spells I mentioned he can be really good help.
sees spell list with Fire Storm, 9 other conjurations, Ring of Flames, and no other spells

You know what this spell list needs? More conjurations

He was asking how to kill OoFs, and he couldn't do it with Fire Storm and RoF, neither with 9 other conjurations.
So I mentioned some spells which would solve his problem.
Those spells I mentioned are enough to win 3 rune game (as he intended) with no need of any lvl 9 spells. Just was giving him advice for next games not this one.

edit: I see other people also adviced him to get OoD, Iron Shot, LCS (and you didn't have problem with that). But noone mentioned Spellforged Servitor. He is good in combination with mentioned spells to solve problem with OoFs.

Note that orbs of fire are resistant to cold. Though it may be intuitive, cold is not the best response to them. Something irresistible like Iron Shot/LCS/OOD is probably better, and Glaciate also works simply because it's a level 9 spell with the power to match, but might be a touch mana-inefficient; Fire Storm, on the other hand, is VERY mana-inefficient against orbs of fire, and I'm not sure why people suggest it - I've used it against OOFs in a Ziggurat recently (on my first characters that's ever cleared a ziggurat) and I blew all my mana without killing a single one.

Malevolent wrote:Fire Storm, on the other hand, is VERY mana-inefficient against orbs of fire, and I'm not sure why people suggest it

Because it hits them from out of LOS and a single fire vortex in the way prevents an OOF from doing anything at all. MP efficiency doesn't matter when you can just rest afterwards.

duvessa wrote:
Malevolent wrote:Fire Storm, on the other hand, is VERY mana-inefficient against orbs of fire, and I'm not sure why people suggest it
Because it hits them from out of LOS and a single fire vortex in the way prevents an OOF from doing anything at all. MP efficiency doesn't matter when you can just rest afterwards.

Okay, fair point, it's a good way to take down orbs of fire safely if there's not much else around and can just reset the fight if you run out of mana before you kill it. But there are a lot of situations which aren't quite that simple and in suboptimal conditions (or just in ziggurats), trying to firestorm down OOFs might not work out so well. Like, if there are other monsters around and they don't just run into your firestorm's range, etc.

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