The Tavern

Vaults 5, cast shatter a few times. (monsters at edge of vision), no walking/attacking etc. Just casting.

Paralyzed from fainting >>>> RIP

It was my impression that you can't be paralyzed the turn you enter fainting. Is this a bug or am I missing something, I didn't even know you could cast yourself into paralyzation.

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Dani/ ... 133326.txt

Quite frustrating. Any replies/enlightenment are welcome.

EDIT: Order was basically

V5, cast some spells, cast shatter(s) > paralyze > dead

Log says paralyzed for 11 turns(fainting)

dani wrote:It was my impression that you can't be paralyzed the turn you enter fainting.

I think this impression is wrong, you were just lucky before. As far as I know it is typical to get paralyzed the same turn when Str reaches 0, for example.

Don't be frustrated, you tried to game the system by insider info and failed so it is your fault really. Use staff of energy, train more spellcasting and most importantly don't save rations to get to Engorged before entering Vaults:5 next time.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
dani wrote:It was my impression that you can't be paralyzed the turn you enter fainting.

I think this impression is wrong, you were just lucky before. As far as I know it is typical to get paralyzed the same turn when Str reaches 0, for example.

Don't be frustrated, you tried to game the system by insider info and failed so it is your fault really. Use staff of energy, train more spellcasting and most importantly don't save rations to get to Engorged before entering Vaults:5 next time.

I remember seeing a dev post around here that said you can't be paralyzed the turn you enter fainting range. Its not the same as stat zero debuffs.

I think starvation is 900? nutrition

dani wrote:I remember seeing a dev post around here that said you can't be paralyzed the turn you enter fainting range. Its not the same as stat zero debuffs.

I think starvation is 900? nutrition

I think the dev meant that paralysis nutrition value is much lower than starvation nutrition value so you cannot be paralyzed on the same turn if you just move or melee. But you casted Shatter with quite low Int/Spellcasting, that might lower your nutrition level by a lot (Int 25 and Spellcasting 17 as far as I remember) (the link in OP is broken). So you lost 575 nutrition by casting level 9 spell (1000-25*17) and got into paralysis range.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
dani wrote:I remember seeing a dev post around here that said you can't be paralyzed the turn you enter fainting range. Its not the same as stat zero debuffs.

I think starvation is 900? nutrition

I think the dev meant that paralysis nutrition value is much lower than starvation nutrition value so you cannot be paralyzed on the same turn if you just move or melee. But you casted Shatter with quite low Int/Spellcasting, that might lower your nutrition level by a lot (Int 25 and Spellcasting 17 as far as I remember) (the link in OP is broken). So you lost 575 nutrition by casting level 9 spell (1000-25*17) and got into paralysis range.

Yeah 25/17 I think; I was always eating everytime I hit starving(eating chunks etc before hand) must have happened to be slightly over starving

I didn't know it was a danger issue; *really* remember seeing somewhere you can't get paralyzed/faint on the turn you enter the status/ability of it. Was just eating everytime I couldn't cast more.

I see. Normally you would eat when hungry or very hungry but you waited until fainting because you thought you were safe due to "could not get paralyzed on the same turn" rule. It reminds me my own game where I would have blinked if I did not know how GDR works but I thought I was safe and can save the scroll. Yet I miscalculated damage and died. We have a saying here "Greater knowledge leads to greater sorrow"...

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I see. Normally you would eat when hungry or very hungry but you waited until fainting because you thought you were safe due to "could not get paralyzed on the same turn" rule. It reminds me my own game where I would have blinked if I did not know how GDR works but I thought I was safe and can save the scroll. Yet I miscalculated damage and died. We have a saying here "Greater knowledge leads to greater sorrow"...

No, normally I didn't eat until starving; in pretty much all games I've played. No reason to eat earlier unless to save a turn in a dangerous combat. To save food.

dani wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:I see. Normally you would eat when hungry or very hungry but you waited until fainting because you thought you were safe due to "could not get paralyzed on the same turn" rule. It reminds me my own game where I would have blinked if I did not know how GDR works but I thought I was safe and can save the scroll. Yet I miscalculated damage and died. We have a saying here "Greater knowledge leads to greater sorrow"...

No, normally I didn't eat until starving; in pretty much all games I've played. No reason to eat earlier unless to save a turn in a dangerous combat. To save food.

Note that you gain the same amount of nutrition no matter when you eat, unless you hit the cap at engorged.

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Dani/ ... 133326.txt

There's the morgue. Most of it has already been answered, but I just wanted to say wow, I did not realize you could faint for 11 turns. Could that maybe be shortened to the max of paralysis (7 turns)?

I dunno. Hunger's so opaque in this game, maybe a warning for this situation is warranted? It feels spoilery that you'd have to know casting a level 9 spell can bring you from "near starving" to unconscious. Nutrition levels aren't ever spelled out, and spell hunger is far from precisely illustrated. Now the OP (and hell, so do I) knows "Don't cast spells that are high level when you're hungry above 'very.' "

I can certainly look this information up - I know that the OP would get 575 hunger from each cast, and near starving goes down to 901, so the math checks out. But I only know that because spoilers.

dani wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:I see. Normally you would eat when hungry or very hungry but you waited until fainting because you thought you were safe due to "could not get paralyzed on the same turn" rule. It reminds me my own game where I would have blinked if I did not know how GDR works but I thought I was safe and can save the scroll. Yet I miscalculated damage and died. We have a saying here "Greater knowledge leads to greater sorrow"...

No, normally I didn't eat until starving; in pretty much all games I've played. No reason to eat earlier unless to save a turn in a dangerous combat. To save food.

I have already written it but it is worth to repeat again. Most importantly, don't save food. You had 43 rations.

Does fainting even serve a useful purpose, or is it just a way to make the game more like NetHack?

I think starvation should be removed and getting zero nutrition level should give permanent slow like for zero stats. Not sure about Formicid, does it have any penalty for having zero stats?

Wow, so that's what they meant, when I was told that not being able to berserk with "very hungry" was actually a way to protect the player from starvation. Maybe the game should warn you beforehand with a y/n.

Code:: Casting this spell with your nutrition level might cause you to faint. Do you want to cast it anyway? Y/n

Don't save food.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I think starvation should be removed and getting zero nutrition level should give permanent slow like for zero stats. Not sure about Formicid, does it have any penalty for having zero stats?

Starvation should stay. Running completely out of food should kill you. As countless mummy and vampire players have shown, clocks only work if they kill you.
Similarly, I support being at Starving having huge penalties to prevent people from deliberately narrowly skirting 0 nutrition - the penalties would be unnecessary if you removed chunks, but at the moment, chunks do exist.
Having another level below Starving, however, doesn't have a purpose that is apparent to me. Fainting is shown now, which is an improvement (whether you were at low enough nutrition to faint used to be hidden from the player), but it's unclear what it accomplishes that Starving doesn't, aside from the potential to result in a silly death like this one. In my opinion, if a food-related death happens when the player still has food remaining, there's a problem.

And yes, zero-stat slowing, Statue Form slowing, etc. apply to formicids.

Removing starvation would help to balance mummies and vampires as you would not need special methods to balance them, just balance other species and these two will be balanced as side effect since they just would not have that slow penalty and nothing else is required.

The op demonstrates a real problem with hunger as it currently exists.
Food should take zero turns to eat. Eating isn't an interesting tactical decision, just something you forget
or at worst try to optimize because you don't realize how much of an abundance you actually have.
This would not break turncount speedruns
and would in fact open the door to food functioning as a meter, with which you don't have to interact
and where running out actually means death.

I used to hoard food and optimize every ration. Now I still do this for half the game, then somewhere around my second or third rune, realize I had ~40 rations (old rations) or ~80 rations (new rations), and start eating rations for the second half of the game.

I guess I'm halfway to nirvana. One day I'll get the rest of the way. My last two wins had 76 and 91 rations at the end (both 15 rune games). They were with chei, who reduces hunger, but I think that's intended to balance the increased hunger from slow movement (aka, shouldn't be just a huge upside, nutritionally speaking).

Edit: in .21, rations are now 3400 nutrition, or 3.4 chunks. I ate 121 chunks and 18 rations all game long. That is equal to 36 + 18 rations, or had I never eaten a single chunk, I would have finished the game with 55 rations left.

tasonir,
I think we should not balance food based on Chei characters. I am sure you know why.

The Tavern

Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzation.

Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzation.

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati

Re: Think I encountered a bug / YASD. Casted into paralyzati