Drop rates still need a some tweaking


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Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 3rd December 2017, 19:13

Drop rates still need a some tweaking

So, I've just finished playing a Centaur Hunter a few minutes ago.

Cleared the Dungeon down to D:11, went down to Lair:6 where I quit the game out of boredom and dissapontment in game design. By the time I reached Lair:6, there were total of 4 ranged weapons existing in my game. One was the bow I started with, one was an ordinary sling, and two were ordinary bows.
I worshiped Okawaru, btw.
Ammo situation wasn't great either. I could hardly reach 100 arrows at best. It takes around 30-40 just to kill one death yak with a starting bow.

So, my game was reduced to doing the kite -> shoot -> kite -> shoot thing several dozen times for every individual opponent I encountered.

And this is not an isolated example. I've had multiple games before where I was bored out of my mind kiting a single monster through an entire level hoping the 57th arrow will finally kill him.

How can one be expected to play ranged characters when the game refuses to generate equipment for such a character?

There's random generation, and then there's bad game design. This is bad game design, I'm sorry to say.

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Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 3rd December 2017, 22:01

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

I'm not a fan of bows. I happen to think that game starts with them are not great. I've also encountered situations where I've tried to kill an adder with 20 arrows, etc. I'm continually shocked at how much better hand crossbows are. For how crappy short bows are, then to consider they are also two-handed weapons is even funnier. As two handed weapons shouldn't they have a significant buff over one-handed ranged weapons? All that aside, if you wanted to make them work there are a few things you could try to do differently.

* Use melee weapons (even untrained) on weak targets as much as possible to conserve arrows
* Focus on bows skill as muh as possible to reduce mulch rate (obviously)
* More liberally explore scrolls in hopes of finding a branding scroll
* Push into branches where you have better odds of finding the relevant ranged weapon. Playing bows, for example you would have better odds of finding a longbow or branded bow in elf rather than lair. If I was playing crossbows, I would try pushing deeper into the main dungeon. This advice also applies to melee weapons as well as most everything in the game, like going to shoals for a polearm and sling/throwing ammo.

Spider Stomper

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Post Sunday, 3rd December 2017, 22:25

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

"I played your extensive game very shortly and can now come to a justifiable conclusion about drop-rates, strategy, and overall game design and you guys suck."
Gonna go way out on a limb here and say you don't have any idea what you are talking about, of course. Maybe give it a few more goes, learn what you are doing wrong in the game. Then go meta and think about what you are doing wrong here in this thread. For your own benefit.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 3rd December 2017, 23:01

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

Scuka wrote:How can one be expected to play ranged characters when the game refuses to generate equipment for such a character?
According to you yourself, you had 4 launchers available and enough arrows to reach 100 extra at one point, to say nothing of the ammunition for other launchers that presumably generated.

I don't see how generating better equipment would make ranged combat any less boring.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 4th December 2017, 02:10

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

Scuka wrote:How can one be expected to play ranged characters when the game refuses to generate equipment for such a character?


try O tabbing
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 4th December 2017, 03:26

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

I think that the fact that Ce allows this kind of kiting is the real problem.
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bel

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Post Monday, 4th December 2017, 07:09

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

Post a character dump. It makes the discussion more concrete.

Scuka wrote:It takes around 30-40 just to kill one death yak with a starting bow.

You don't need to kill death yaks as a CeHu. Just walk (trot?) away from them.

In general, if you are playing a kiting ranged character, and you don't like playing such a character, then there's not much to be done. Perhaps try playing something else. Centaurs are very powerful, but they're one of my least played races.

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 4th December 2017, 18:14

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

Well, yes, Ce, like other pet peeves of mine (Vp, DD, Beogh), is self-contained and thus avoidable. Right now, the best player experience with ranged is probably with Ba, since you can't run away and instead use the huge LOS.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 6th December 2017, 19:50

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

I like hand crossbows (especially white ones) but you have to also realize they are kinda slow compared to a trained shortbow. And if you train either hand crossbows or shortbows to min delay, you can at least use Heroism to get the next higher weapon in that class pretty close to min delay too for the worst monsters.

Once you start getting enchanted ranged weapons of either kind, you really shouldn't be talking about 50-odd shots at anything. Unless you like, barely ever trained the weapon/ never pushed Heroism or the things you choose to kite are mostly ones with incredible EV.

While I think it's still kinda possible to have an ammo shortage in some games, I don't think it has happened to me too often. Even when I'm not actually using ranged as my main, I tend to packrat stuff around for a while and I'm often stashing a couple hundred arrows somewhere by Lair. It may get tight if you insist on using only a single type of ranged weapon for every single attack, I suppose. Once you've covered some levels of dungeon, a lot of trash patrols don't require nearly that much range or specialization to kill safely.

Naturally it's getting a bit more slow/iffy if you don't find anything for a seriously enchanted "main gun" by around Lair branches. But I feel that way about most weapon types, not just ranged.

You can always play a hunter or keep rolling Wanderer in pursuit of a starting +1 or +2 ranged weapon. Sometimes you even get two different ranged weapons on the same Wanderer inventory. Probably only one will be enchanted, but that's a lot of throwaway ammo to start with on top of an enchantment when it happens.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 7th December 2017, 23:46

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

But OP is right. Ammo quantities at that point in the game are still low, and picking ammo up after or during battles is horrible.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 8th December 2017, 18:53

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

Rast wrote:But OP is right. Ammo quantities at that point in the game are still low, and picking ammo up after or during battles is horrible.

Hellcrawl already has a solution to this - multiply the amount of ammo times 8, and ammo always mulches. 8 is because the mulch rate is 12.5% if I'm not mistaken - the goal is to have the same amount of shots as now, but not require you to go pick up anything.

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Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 10th December 2017, 19:11

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

You know, BOTH sides of this argument easily can (and I feel that they do) have some validity. I definitely agree that it sounds like OP hasn't played enough to have a properly-formed opinion, but s/he also notes that they have played "many games"; dismissing them out out of hand seems premature.

Full disclosure: I happen to at least partially agree with OP, in that drop rates (at least for bow/crossbow ammo) may need a little tweaking, but I don't find it "ruins the game" ^^'.
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Post Sunday, 10th December 2017, 22:44

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

I wouldn't completely dismiss it. I probably wouldn't mind if there was somewhat more ammo slightly earlier (at least, slightly larger average stacks of ammo where it does appear).

Some of the particular supporting claims seem unlikely to me except under a very narrow or inefficient playstyle, though. You generally don't need to be shooting your best-trained ranged weapon at every jackal and goblin by D:3-4. But then I'm also the type to carry six different weapons and switch seemingly for the fun of playing "what if" or "let's just try this once", so that sort of narrow doesn't nag me until I have some awesome white bow that I can't seem to ever put down.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 11th December 2017, 18:34

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

As a less experienced player I agree with stoneychips. Starting as a ranged background only seems worthwhile so that I have a book with Portal Projectile for later. Ammo (for non-Slingers) is so scarce that you'll have to split exp with a melee weapon skill unless you get very lucky with weapon or ammo drops. Which typically leaves me with a bow / c-bow that can't seem to kill any real threats even if I focus mainly on ranged skill. So I might as well just fully focus on melee, which is both non-tedious and consistently works, and switch to ranged later on.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 11th December 2017, 18:44

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

Cornercat wrote:As a less experienced player I agree with stoneychips. Starting as a ranged background only seems worthwhile so that I have a book with Portal Projectile for later. Ammo (for non-Slingers) is so scarce that you'll have to split exp with a melee weapon skill unless you get very lucky with weapon or ammo drops. Which typically leaves me with a bow / c-bow that can't seem to kill any real threats even if I focus mainly on ranged skill. So I might as well just fully focus on melee, which is both non-tedious and consistently works, and switch to ranged later on.

Next time you want to play a ranged weapon focused character, try killing early wimpy things with a melee weapon *without spending any xp on it* it is surprisingly effective, even more so if you train fighting (which helps melee and ranged damage, and gives you more hps so you don't die)
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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 11th December 2017, 19:22

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

I wouldn't want to argue that ranged doesn't need some work, but for context, here are some actual drop rates as produced by objstat in current trunk for a batch of 3-rune swamp/snake games. This ignores oka/trog gifts.

arrows

  • D (all): average 432.27 (min 126, max 1053)
  • D (1-10): average 174.61 (the way this is calculated means I can't report an aggregate min/max, only per level)
  • Lair: average 79.54 (min 0, max 248)
  • Swamp: 44.39 (0, 196)
  • Snake: 216.83 (18, 578)
  • Vaults: 358.57 (102, 922)
  • All levels: 1876.85 (1108, 2900)

bolts

  • D (all): 133.44 (0, 350)
  • D (1-10): 69.78
  • Lair: 43.2 (0, 190)
  • Swamp: 26.19 (0, 113)
  • Snake: 156.55 (14, 405)
  • Vaults: 1019.59 (222, 2128)
  • All levels: 1984.62 (1108, 3233)

Some observations: (i) I'm pretty confident that there is not a shortage of ammo in the game overall, even if you are both unlucky and don't use an ammo-gifting god. (ii) bows skew earlier, and crossbows skew later. With bows it does seem that it can pay to clear the whole D at some point because drop rates are a bit balanced towards later in D, probably because centaurs generate there (this is my experience as a player as well). With crossbows, you can expect ammo to be tight until vaults. (iii) I'm not convinced that there's really a shortage of ammo in the early game, on average, and I find the idea that there's a shortage while using oka/trog to be ... surprising. (iv) the variances are quite high at any given point in the game, so you will have to deal with what the rng provides you with. If I were to do anything to tweak the current system (there is a long-term overhaul that may or may not be in the works someday so I'm not sure how likely any tweaks are) it might be to try to reduce the variance a bit.

Speaking as a player, not really from a dev perspective, I have personally never found there to be a shortage of ammo on my ranged characters (if anything, the opposite; my most recent bow character is a 3-rune HEBe that ended the game with 2021 arrows and had over 5000 shots, also used swords with a comparable number of hits). But I've also never tried to impose a ranged-only playstyle on the game.

How can one be expected to play ranged characters when the game refuses to generate equipment for such a character?


The relevant game design aspect here is not really the particular drop rates, but the degree to which the game gives you freedom to develop a character along particular lines while ignoring the facts of what you have found in the dungeon. In general, I think this is the wrong game for that.

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Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 11th December 2017, 20:35

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

Siegurt wrote:
Cornercat wrote:As a less experienced player I agree with stoneychips. Starting as a ranged background only seems worthwhile so that I have a book with Portal Projectile for later. Ammo (for non-Slingers) is so scarce that you'll have to split exp with a melee weapon skill unless you get very lucky with weapon or ammo drops. Which typically leaves me with a bow / c-bow that can't seem to kill any real threats even if I focus mainly on ranged skill. So I might as well just fully focus on melee, which is both non-tedious and consistently works, and switch to ranged later on.

Next time you want to play a ranged weapon focused character, try killing early wimpy things with a melee weapon *without spending any xp on it* it is surprisingly effective, even more so if you train fighting (which helps melee and ranged damage, and gives you more hps so you don't die)

Just did a few games, yes I can kill most early enemies with just the short sword and no exp. The main early threats where the short sword isn't likely to work are Jackal packs, Gnoll packs and Adders. Gnolls can usually be fled from but waste quite a few arrows when you can't. Jackals can be softened with arrows and finished in melee. Adders however, melee isn't a reliable way to kill them without any skill investment. They usually can't be fled from. And arrows tend to miss often enough at this point and Adders being fast enough that they can stop quite a few runs. Between these threats and bad drop luck, I've been down to 10 shots left by D 3 or 4 and at that point its too tedious to continue the game honestly. I'd rather just get past all this with a consistent and easier melee start, with far less effort and transition to ranged when I find any decent bow or c-bow.

I guess I just don't like the idea that runs can end this early to something silly like not finding arrows.

Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 12th December 2017, 04:22

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

Here's the thing.....

It's so much more effective to use stuff like the untrained short sword than the trained short bow for a lot of things (if only to save ammo) early game that it seems silly. I have heard a lot of talk about how great ranged combat is because you can hit from range... but the reality is that while it's good for the first enemy that you encounter, until it closes the gap.. they are worse than melee at close range, and if there are any other enemies behind the first, they close the gap as you're fighting the first. Solo targets are rarely as dangerous as large packs of enemies. You're going to wind up being trained for ranged (inferior to melee) weapons fighting a lot at melee range in most actual dangerous situations. The only saving grace is that the ammo may miss but wind up hitting something behind the first target. That isn't terrible, but it's not as good as killing stuff quickly as it walks into melee range and repeating the process such that you avoid many blows.

The reason hand crossbows are so much better is because they have great accuracy and damage, and the best usage of them is to use them (trained as a melee character) to hit enemies approached, sleeping, and still at range, as a lure and weakening agent. Often times an untrained hand-crossbow can be used to kill ogres which could otherwise put out too much damage for an early melee trained character. The slow time isn't a factor really, you just want to make sure the shot fired on them sleeping hits, and hits hard. When used in this fashion, there is also not much of an ammo issue. It's essentially a long-range weak stab + lure.

Over time, so much attention has been focused on screwing over players trying to kite and avoid getting damaged, that the end result is that melee (and heavy armour) is so stupidly better than any other tactic barring extended late game situations, level 8 and 9 spells and ziggurats. About the only combination I can find to the contrary is a vampire of Mak using lesser destruction from bat form to clear the early/mid game (and of course dumping xp into armour.)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 12th December 2017, 19:41

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

Here's the thing. You said "melee is better than ranged." Is it in the same family? Yes. No one's arguing that. As someone who is an eliteplayer who studies melee, I am telling you, specifically, in eliteplay, no one calls melee better than ranged.

It's okay to just admit you're wrong, you know?

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Post Tuesday, 12th December 2017, 19:56

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

svendre wrote:Here's the thing.....

It's so much more effective to use stuff like the untrained short sword than the trained short bow for a lot of things (if only to save ammo) early game that it seems silly. I have heard a lot of talk about how great ranged combat is because you can hit from range... but the reality is that while it's good for the first enemy that you encounter, until it closes the gap.. they are worse than melee at close range, and if there are any other enemies behind the first, they close the gap as you're fighting the first. Solo targets are rarely as dangerous as large packs of enemies. You're going to wind up being trained for ranged (inferior to melee) weapons fighting a lot at melee range in most actual dangerous situations. The only saving grace is that the ammo may miss but wind up hitting something behind the first target. That isn't terrible, but it's not as good as killing stuff quickly as it walks into melee range and repeating the process such that you avoid many blows.

The reason hand crossbows are so much better is because they have great accuracy and damage, and the best usage of them is to use them (trained as a melee character) to hit enemies approached, sleeping, and still at range, as a lure and weakening agent. Often times an untrained hand-crossbow can be used to kill ogres which could otherwise put out too much damage for an early melee trained character. The slow time isn't a factor really, you just want to make sure the shot fired on them sleeping hits, and hits hard. When used in this fashion, there is also not much of an ammo issue. It's essentially a long-range weak stab + lure.

Over time, so much attention has been focused on screwing over players trying to kite and avoid getting damaged, that the end result is that melee (and heavy armour) is so stupidly better than any other tactic barring extended late game situations, level 8 and 9 spells and ziggurats. About the only combination I can find to the contrary is a vampire of Mak using lesser destruction from bat form to clear the early/mid game (and of course dumping xp into armour.)


A point i would make here is that ranged weapons are not really worse than melee ones at short range, i guess they are missing some of the top tier choices, but a longbow is equal to a greatsword (i would rate the "miss but maybe hit the thing in back" equal to riposte) or glaive, and personally i think training for a triple sword or bardiche in a 3 rune game is usually a waste of xp.

In my current game, i was in spider, killing things with my +2 longbow of venom, typically i would kill 3-7 things before the first of a swarm closed into melee range with me (1-3 shots each), sometimes more, sometimes less, sometimes i would kill everything without it touching me, sometimes i would plink a single nasty 7 times and not kill it before it was on top of me, but that was pretty rare. Overall that seems pretty darn effective comparitively. Not as good as say, a well trained and placed fireballs would be (at least until you ran out of mana and pulled the whole floor to you), but better in terms of damage taken than waiting and whacking things with a greatsword.

Now spider is an extreme, it is fairly open (making choke points harder to find) the critters in there are fast (making it harder to reposition for optimal melee combat), fragile (meaning killing them at range is easier), mostly non ranged, and hard hitting (so if multiples do start chewing on you because you haven't had time to kill them yet, it hurts, even if on a one to one basis they would die quickly), which lends itself pretty well to ranged weapons, longbows would not be as similarly devastating in say, vaults.

I dont think ranged weapons are particularly overpowered, but nor are they especially weak. Crossbows, notably suffer from an early game ammo shortage (bows less so and slings not at all) but since you dont really need the ammo for the bulk of critters (or really any trained attack at all) in the early game, it doesn't matter much, it just means "train more fighting and dodging" which is good advice even if you are using a melee weapon. Starting with a melee weapon really just means less swapping and that your unthreatening early combats are shorter. Once you have sufficient ammo, ranged and melee weapons are exactly the same, except ammo is annoying to pick up, and critters (even tough ones) will sometimes die or take lots of damage before they can hit you. Oh and good ranged weapons are somewhat rarer than good melee weapons.

If you end up fighting in melee range in dangerous situations you aren't particularly at a disadvantage over a melee weapon user, you just have slightly less advantage than you would with better positioning.

Now if you want to evaluate how *annoying* it is, ranged combat is *way* more annoying than melee, melee being the lowest available effort one can put in to kill stuff. I waffle between whether conjurations are more or less annoying than ranged weapons, it is kind of a toss up imho.
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Post Thursday, 14th December 2017, 11:13

Re: Drop rates still need a some tweaking

First, I didn't say ranged weapons are not worthwhile. If i'm being credited with saying that, it's erroneous somehow. I just often don't use only ranged weapons. I've played centaur hunters with bows and various others, relying fairly often on hand crossbows heavily by around Lair/mid-game, and won a few games that way.

Cornercat wrote:Just did a few games, yes I can kill most early enemies with just the short sword and no exp. The main early threats where the short sword isn't likely to work are Jackal packs, Gnoll packs and Adders. Gnolls can usually be fled from but waste quite a few arrows when you can't. Jackals can be softened with arrows and finished in melee. Adders however, melee isn't a reliable way to kill them without any skill investment. They usually can't be fled from. And arrows tend to miss often enough at this point and Adders being fast enough that they can stop quite a few runs. Between these threats and bad drop luck, I've been down to 10 shots left by D 3 or 4 and at that point its too tedious to continue the game honestly. I'd rather just get past all this with a consistent and easier melee start, with far less effort and transition to ranged when I find any decent bow or c-bow.

I guess I just don't like the idea that runs can end this early to something silly like not finding arrows.

The humble short sword is surprisingly powerful in early game if you're having a good day. It is fast and accurate -- and you also often find blue ones with interesting powers early, too.

I think when you get into gnolls and adders, honestly many characters can have trouble with them. They're some of the nastiest possible things on the floors where you typically first encounter them. Only the heaviest species or best equipped of types can feel mostly safe. Most everyone else gets to kite, avoid, or consider blowing a consumable or two the first couple times. If I'm playing an ogre, I actually throw large rocks at adders because they are really that dangerous and often there are few other weapons that will smash so reliably with one hit. On many other characters, I quaff a random potion(s) early and hope for lignification, resistance, agility, curing (if you are willing to take one or two hits first), haste, might, etc. That is, unless I have picked up a nice weapon or started with some particularly awesome gear (on a wanderer) already. A little further into the Dungeon, it becomes not such a huge deal. But melee or no melee isn't really the key to being safe with these every time in my mind.
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