Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)


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Slime Squisher

Posts: 419

Joined: Monday, 12th September 2016, 16:25

Post Saturday, 9th September 2017, 20:46

Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

These days the generally accepted opinion seems to be that strength is always preferable to dexterity. I was wondering how true that was and planned to do some testing to look into it.

tl;dr: it was so clearly true that I stopped before doing anything extensive, so this is just a summary of how far I got. Even with a character especially arranged to get minimal benefit from Strength against an opponent where Dexterity might be expected to be beneficial, there is only a very small advantage to taking Dexterity.

From attack.cc:
Take weapon base damage
Add (r2(STR-9) * 2) / 39. In other words, each point of STR over 10 adds 2.6% damage. (STR under 10 subtracts (r2(11-STR) * 3)/ 39 - 3.9%. Try not to have STR under 10 if you are bashing monsters).

Weapon skill and fighting skill are multiplicative modifiers - STR bonus unchanged - which is fortunate because then we don't have to account for them.

Then come slaying bonuses, including weapon plusses. Slaying bonusses are additive, however, and not affected by STR bonus. Hence if you have a lot of slaying and/or your base damage is low, the effective value of your STR bonus drops considerably. If you were using a +0 weapon (or a thrown weapon) and had no slaying, your STR bonus is at maximum value.

Monster takes off d(AC) -1. This means against high-AC monsters you get more effective benefit from higher STR (or anything that causes additional damage) because the first however-many points of damage are being lost.

Brands kick in. Most brands act as a multiplier on damage done, rendering the value of STR unchanged. However, electrocution is a fixed bonus (reducing the effective value of a STR bonus), and protection gives its bonus independently of damage.

[There was going to be some consideration of accuracy here, but I started running some fsims instead.]

As an extreme example of a character where one would not expect STR to do much, an unarmoured STR 10 character with a +6 ring of slaying and a +9 QB of electrocution versus a killer bee:
(Note that I have upped the number of fsim rounds to the maximum of 500,000, and run it multiple times to check there's no significant variance between runs.)
  Code:
            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     13.8 |     42 |      61% |   8.6 |    35  |  2.86 |     24.5
With 20 STR:
 Attacking:     14.4 |     45 |      61% |   8.9 |    35  |  2.86 |     25.5
A 4% damage boost, where naively we might have expected 26%.
With 20 DEX:
 Attacking:     13.8 |     42 |      65% |   9.0 |    35  |  2.86 |     25.8
A 5% damage boost, barely more.
With 15 STR, 15 DEX:
 Attacking:     14.0 |     43 |      63% |   8.9 |    35  |  2.86 |     25.4
Worse than either all-STR or all-DEX.


It is worth noting this gives a fair picture of the situation against a high-EV low-AC monster with decent HP, but - to be fair - does underestimate the use of DEX against actual killer bees. Killer bees have 10-22HP, so many of these hits where electrocution kicks in or even where the slaying bonus rolls high will overkill a killer bee, wasting the excess damage. The extra 4% accuracy would have more value than it seems here.

However, this was an extreme example. Against a high-AC poor-EV monster, a stone giant, and wearing a scale mail (with a bit of Armour skill, and some Dodging since I'm also now looking at defensive benefits):
  Code:
 Attacking:      9.8 |     42 |      93% |   9.1 |    35  |  2.86 |     26.1
_Defending:     16.2 |     40 |      57% |   9.4 |   100  |  1.00 |      9.4
With 20 STR:
 Attacking:     10.3 |     43 |      93% |   9.6 |    35  |  2.86 |     27.4
_Defending:     16.1 |     40 |      50% |   8.2 |   100  |  1.00 |      8.2
A 5% damage boost.
With 20 DEX:
 Attacking:      9.8 |     42 |      93% |   9.2 |    35  |  2.86 |     26.3
_Defending:     16.2 |     40 |      50% |   8.2 |   100  |  1.00 |      8.2
A 1% damage boost, and no defensive benefit over getting the STR-based AEVP reduction.
With 15 STR, 15 DEX:
 Attacking:     10.0 |     43 |      93% |   9.3 |    35  |  2.86 |     26.7
_Defending:     16.2 |     40 |      49% |   8.0 |   100  |  1.00 |      8.0
A 2% damage boost and a very marginal defensive benefit.


I stopped here because it seemed clear that if I can't make DEX look good with a character completely stacked against STR, I can't make it look good at all.

Of course, this only considers melee. A caster, however - well, if they are wearing armour they will clearly prefer STR which improves casting chances to DEX which doesn't (STR v. INT is another question), and if they aren't they'll generally go INT.

There might be a remaining question about armourless dodgers like kitties, where STR has no defensive benefits because there's no AEVP to eliminate. Even then I expect STR will come out on top because it will provide a whopping damage bonus (especially on a kitty or other UC character with no weapon slaying bonus or brand) and accuracy is pretty good anyway with no AEVP (and a kitty's high starting DEX).
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Spider Stomper

Posts: 245

Joined: Sunday, 1st March 2015, 19:26

Post Saturday, 9th September 2017, 23:00

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

What about for defenses on something that doesn't wear armor like Dr?

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Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1194

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 01:40

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Blobbo wrote:What about for defenses on something that doesn't wear armor like Dr?

Evasion is overrated. I suppose you could make an exception to this line of thinking for something like Dr. I started to greatly reduce my investment in Dodging/Dex after watching Dynast games, and it's remarkable how little of a difference you notice provided you go with heavy armor. I don't usually go all-in with no dodging unless I'm a Naga or something, but it seems clear enough to me that str + heavy armor is preferable to investing in dex nowadays. Almost all the low-mid level spells that you used to be able to use that made medium armor more attractive have been removed, anyway.

once you get far enough in the game you aren't going to be killed except by silly mistakes, paralysis, or a huge hit from a spell, if you're using heavy armor.
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Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 443

Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 15:23

Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 06:48

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Lately I play hellcrawl exclusively, where heavy armor is not nearly so dominant due to lower xp and gear availability. Recent QoL improvements for these low-mid level spells that the light and mid weight armor characters like to use make that playstyle a lot nicer and I find myself putting points in dex quite a bit on guys who will primarily melee. Evasion is actually pretty good if you've got ozo's on all the time.

One of the things about the Dynast-style heavy armor/shield build is that the str both offsets lower base damage of a 1-handed weapon and increases your SH value. The conventional wisdom about shield melee being inferior to 2-handed melee underrates the effectiveness of SH in melee and against many ranged attacks. Generally, there are very few fights where high damage output is critical and there's enough might and berserk available in a typical game to cover all those fights.

That said, it's worthwhile to roll an old fashioned 2-handed melee guy with 18-24 dex once in a while. Even without phase shift and so on, they're still solid.
*Lana Del Rey voice* , video games...

Slime Squisher

Posts: 419

Joined: Monday, 12th September 2016, 16:25

Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 07:28

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Blobbo wrote:What about for defenses on something that doesn't wear armor like Dr?


I did touch on that in the final paragraph, but I agree it's not quite settled. It's a trickier one to address because there's wide variety in how much AC from accessories, Dodging skill, and SH an unarmoured character might have (all three of which will change the utility of DEX...), whereas most of the bonuses to damage just act as a straight multiplier (can't _quite_ be discounted because monster AC is subtracted, but pretty close). I might try and roll some more fsim and see if it's as convincing.
Ascension reports with too many words since 2016.

Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 1

Joined: Sunday, 10th September 2017, 12:47

Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 12:49

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Thx! Very interesting info. Always was puting all into Dex for Stabbers and Op. While for Op this still can be ok cause no armor for stabbers gonna try pumping Str next time.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 419

Joined: Monday, 12th September 2016, 16:25

Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 14:44

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

superd wrote:Thx! Very interesting info. Always was puting all into Dex for Stabbers and Op. While for Op this still can be ok cause no armor for stabbers gonna try pumping Str next time.


Hm, well. Stabbing is another special case, I'm afraid. Dexterity gives a bonus to stab chance and damage both directly and via Stealth - and while it's possible to quantify the improvement once you're next to a monster, the improvement in the odds of getting there unnoticed is highly situational.

Also, stabbing's very prone to the overkill problem. When I was playing kitties, most of the time, if I stabbed a sleeping monster, it died. Whether STR or DEX would have improved the nominal damage by more was irrelevant.
Ascension reports with too many words since 2016.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 771

Joined: Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 02:47

Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 15:12

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Shield Weighting:
If using a buckler, Dex gives better returns than Str.
if Shield, Dex = Str. They are equally weighted.
If Large Shield, Str gives better returns than Dex.

Being that large shields are rare and rarely used, it is generally misleading to say Str > Dex for the purposes of shields without an additional qualifying statement.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 346

Joined: Thursday, 15th August 2013, 11:33

Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 17:09

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

So, this post inspired me to make a Dex focused character. Mi because headbutt, Long blades because riposte, Wu because spinning attacks. Would this particular character have been better off investing in Str? (Yeah, GDS are a bit heavy, check out the FaDS that Enchantress dropped, I have like 40 EV with that thing!)

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.21-a0-265-gb353147 (webtiles) character file.

cerealjynx the Intangible (Minotaur Gladiator)     Turns: 57126, Time: 02:50:03

Health: 213/213    AC: 28    Str: 19    XL:     23   Next: 77%
Magic:  38/38      EV: 22    Int:  5    God:    Wu Jian [******]
Gold:   4007       SH: 30    Dex: 30    Spells: 5/22 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .   n - +2 Maxwell's thermic engine {flame, freeze, rF- rC-}
rCold    . . .     Gourm    .   M - +1 large shield "Kaujiaf" {Stlth+}
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   b - +3 gold dragon scales
rPois    +         Spirit   .   l - +0 hat {MR+}
rElec    .         Reflect  +   o - scarf {repulsion}
rCorr    .         Harm     .   R - +1 pair of gloves "Fevu" {Dex+3}
MR       +....                  r - +2 pair of boots {run}
Stlth    ..........             Z - +4 amulet of reflection
HPRegen  0.45/turn              O - ring "Utyh" {MR- MP+9 Dex+5 Slay+6}
MPRegen  0.26/turn              d - +5 ring of slaying

@: repel missiles, quick
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2, repulsion field 1, deterioration 1, mutation
resistance 1
}: 2/15 runes: decaying, serpentine
a: Serpent's Lash, Heavenly Storm, Renounce Religion


You are on level 3 of the Vaults.
You worship Wu Jian.
Wu Jian is exalted by your worship.
You are hungry.

You have visited 8 branches of the dungeon, and seen 45 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have also visited: Labyrinth and Trove.

You have collected 6362 gold pieces.
You have spent 2355 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +9 double sword of flaming
 n - the +2 Maxwell's thermic engine (weapon) {flame, freeze, rF- rC-}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Depths)   
   
   It has been specially enchanted to burn those struck by it, causing extra
   injury to most foes and up to half again as much damage against particularly
   susceptible opponents. Big, fiery blades are also staple armaments of
   hydra-hunters.
   
   It makes you vulnerable to fire.
   It makes you vulnerable to cold.
Missiles
 s - 20 silver javelins
 w - 3 throwing nets
 C - 35 tomahawks
 D - 24 javelins (quivered)
Armour
 b - +3 gold dragon scales (worn)
 l - a +0 hat of magic resistance (worn)
 o - a scarf of repulsion (worn)
 r - a +2 pair of boots of running (worn)
 L - the +2 faerie dragon scales {+Fly rC+ rCorr Slay+2 Clar}
   (You took it off the Enchantress on level 1 of the Depths)   
   
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+2).
   It protects you from cold.
   It lets you fly.
   It protects you against confusion.
   It protects you from acid and corrosion.
 M - the +1 large shield "Kaujiaf" (worn) {Stlth+}
   (You acquired it on level 2 of the Vaults)   
   
   It makes you more stealthy.
 R - the +1 pair of gloves "Fevu" (worn) {Dex+3}
   (You found it in a treasure trove)   
   
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
Jewellery
 d - a +5 ring of slaying (right hand)
 x - an uncursed ring of see invisible
 J - the ring of Xyttep {rElec rC+ Int+3}
   (You found it in a treasure trove)   
   
   [ring of protection from cold]
   
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
 O - the ring "Utyh" (left hand) {MR- MP+9 Dex+5 Slay+6}
   (You found it on level 13 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of magical power]
   
   It affects your dexterity (+5).
   It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks
   (+6).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It affects your magic capacity (+9).
 Z - a +4 amulet of reflection (around neck)
Wands
 e - a wand of disintegration (10/24)
 q - a wand of digging (10/24)
 u - a wand of acid (6/15)
 H - a wand of paralysis (8/24)
 X - a wand of flame (11/48)
Scrolls
 h - 22 scrolls of remove curse
 v - 4 scrolls of magic mapping
 A - a scroll of blinking
 E - 6 scrolls of fear
 P - 4 scrolls of recharging
 Q - 5 scrolls of fog
 U - 6 scrolls of teleportation
Potions
 g - 4 potions of cancellation
 k - a potion of ambrosia
 m - a potion of flight
 p - 4 potions of haste
 t - a potion of agility
 z - 7 potions of brilliance
 F - a potion of might
 G - 4 potions of curing
 N - a potion of resistance
 W - 3 potions of heal wounds
Miscellaneous
 c - a lightning rod (4/4)
 i - a phial of floods
 I - a lamp of fire
 T - 2 phantom mirrors
 V - a fan of gales
 Y - a sack of spiders
Comestibles
 f - 12 bread rations
 j - 24 royal jellies
 B - 5 fruits
 S - 14 meat rations


   Skills:
 + Level 19.5 Fighting
 - Level 16.4 Long Blades
 - Level 2.0 Throwing
 - Level 14.0 Armour
 O Level 27 Dodging
 * Level 23.1 Shields
 - Level 10.0 Evocations


You have 5 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          100%        2    ###....
b - Passwall              Tmut/Erth      #.........   100%        2    ###....
c - Ignite Poison         Fire/Tmut/Pois #.......     100%        3    ####...
d - Poisonous Vapours     Pois/Air       #.....       100%        2    ###....
e - Apportation           Tloc           #.....       100%        1    ##.....
f - Summon Butterflies    Summ           #.......     100%        1    ##.....
g - Lesser Beckoning      Tloc           #.........   100%        3    ####...
h - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      #.........   100%        3    ####...


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:4            Lair (6/6) D:11
  Swamp (4/4) Lair:3        Snake (4/4) Lair:2        Slime (5/5) Lair:5
    Orc (2/2) D:10            Elf (0/3) Orc:2        Vaults (4/5) D:14
  Crypt (0/3) Vaults:2     Depths (5/5) D:15            Zot (0/5) Depths:5

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Gozag
Hepliaklqana
Makhleb
Okawaru
Wu Jian
The Shining One
Beogh
Jiyva

Shops:
D:8 =   Orc:2 *%[}[   Vaults:3 ((*   Depths:3 :   Depths:4 *

Portals:
Hell: Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5
Abyss: Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5
Pandemonium: Orc:2 Depths:2 Depths:3
Ziggurat: Depths:1

Annotations:
Lair:1 Sonja
Lair:5 exclusion: downstairs
Swamp:2 exclusion: upstairs
Slime:5 Royal Jelly
Depths:5 3 runed doors


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.
You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field. (EV +2)
Your body sometimes deteriorates upon taking damage.
You are somewhat resistant to further mutation.


Message History

(Z) Zot           
Where to? (Enter - Vaults:3 @ (x,y), ? - help)
There is an open door here.
There is an open door here.
There is an open door here.
Things that are here:
a dire flail x2
Items here: )))) [[[[
There is an open door, spattered with blood here.
Things that are here:
a scale mail; a long sword of protection
There is an entrance to Gozag's Assorted Antiques here.
y - a scroll of enchant armour
Thank you for shopping at Gozag's Assorted Antiques!
As you read the scroll of enchant armour, it crumbles to dust.
Your +1 pair of boots of running glows green for a moment.
Save game and exit?
Welcome back, cerealjynx the Minotaur Gladiator.
The Council says: Follow the Path!
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.

#...............+...#...#...#
#.8...#'''#...8.#..§#...'...#
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#....#8...8#....##'#.....####
#....##'''##....'....###....#
#...8##...##8...#....# #....#
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#..∩#..._...#@..#..##...##..#
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#...8##...##8...######'######
#.....#####.....##.....)# ####
#.......∩.......##......# #...
#.8...........8.##....^.###...
#...............##......[....#
#######[##########......#)...#


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  An ancient lich (Depths:4)
  2 juggernauts (Depths:4)
  A caustic shrike (Depths:4)
  Nikola (Swamp:1)
  3 golden dragons (Depths:5)
  the Enchantress (Depths:1)
  Jorgrun (Depths:2)
  A bone dragon (Depths:5)
  A Brimstone Fiend (Depths:5)
  An Ice Fiend (Depths:5)
  A tentacled monstrosity (Depths:5)
  2 titans
  A quicksilver dragon (Depths:4)
  15 acid blobs
  4 sphinxes
  A thorn hunter (Swamp:4)
  2 storm dragons
  9 nagarajas
  7 tengu reavers
  A draconian scorcher (Depths:5)
  6 fire giants
  14 vault wardens
  Aizul (Snake:2)
  13 frost giants
  7 azure jellies
  3 balrugs
  A draconian stormcaller (Depths:5)
  5 spriggan defenders
  12 very ugly things
  16 ironheart preservers
  19 stone giants
  2 entropy weavers
  2 deep elf annihilators (Vaults:4)
  A vampire knight (Vaults:2)
  A dire elephant (D:15)
  A white draconian (Depths:5)
  A small abomination (Vaults:4)
  2 deep elf demonologists
  2 yellow draconians (Depths:5)
  A red draconian (Depths:5)
  2 blizzard demons (Depths:5)
  10 ettins
  A spark wasp (Depths:3)
  A merfolk javelineer (Depths:4)
  5 death oozes
  A minotaur (Lab)
  Snorg (D:11)
  14 yaktaur captains
  Josephine (D:11)
  7 vault guards
  3 deep elf death magi
  5 spriggan air magi
  4 fire dragons
  8 great orbs of eyes
  21 hydras
  4 rakshasas
  15 naga warriors
  9 ice dragons
  A catoblepas (Lair:6)
  A hell beast (Depths:1)
  22 centaur warriors
  2 death knights
  An anaconda (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  10 anacondas
  8 deep troll shamans
  5 tengu warriors
  11 alligators
  A ghost crab (Swamp:2)
  7 spriggan berserkers
  54 two-headed ogres
  16 ogre magi
  11 death yaks
  8 deep troll earth magi
  15 hell knights
  A shock serpent (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4)
  Urug (D:11)
  2 iron trolls
  6 orc high priests (Orc:2)
  7 naga sharpshooters
  A soul eater (Orc:2)
  7 sun demons
  9 shock serpents
  2 shadow wraiths
  2 deep elf knights
  2 sixfirhies
  3 skeletal warriors (D:14)
  A fire crab (Lair:6)
  A torturous demonspawn (Orc:2)
  A gelid demonspawn (Orc:2)
  A flayed ghost (Depths:5)
  A spriggan druid (Swamp:3)
  3 unseen horrors
  6 naga ritualists
  35 deep trolls
  2 shambling mangroves
  4 glowing orange brains
  3 phantasmal warriors
  18 ironbrand convokers
  16 orc knights
  15 swamp dragons
  6 wizards
  5 necromancers
  3 deep elf archers
  5 wolf spiders
  7 orc sorcerers (Orc:2)
  28 ugly things
  6 mana vipers
  A salamander (shapeshifter) (D:13)
  24 cyclopes
  12 deep elf magi
  A wolf spider zombie (D:14)
  2 shining eyes
  4 manticores
  A human skeleton (Vaults:4)
  9 elephants
  2 guardian serpents
  8 salamanders
  2 eyes of devastation (Slime:5)
  A centaur zombie (D:15)
  15 vault sentinels
  29 black mambas
  A frost giant skeleton (Vaults:4)
  A torpor snail (Lair:5)
  Psyche (D:8)
  18 naga magi
  4 centaur skeletons
  A rust devil (Depths:1)
  2 rime drakes
  A gargoyle (D:14)
  16 spiny frogs
  3 orange demons (D:12)
  A kobold demonologist (D:15)
  3 komodo dragons
  2 tengu conjurers (Depths:4)
  5 freezing wraiths
  41 yaktaurs
  A hellwing (Depths:2)
  2 red devils
  5 ice devils (Depths:5)
  3 meliai (D:13)
  A polar bear (Lair:6)
  A meliai (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4)
  4 tyrant leeches
  A queen bee (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  4 trolls
  2 trolls (shapeshifter)
  2 wind drakes (shapeshifter)
  A raiju (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  7 bog bodies
  9 hornets
  104 slime creatures
  Prince Ribbit (D:6)
  A frost giant simulacrum (Vaults:4)
  14 dream sheep (Lair:6)
  12 blink frogs
  8 hippogriffs
  An ettin skeleton (Depths:1)
  3 water elementals
  4 wraiths
  A redback (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4)
  3 redbacks
  8 spriggans
  5 air elementals
  4 shadows
  60 yaks
  A ynoxinul (Orc:2)
  3 hogs (D:9)
  A tarantella (shapeshifter) (Vaults:1)
  A yak (shapeshifter) (Vaults:1)
  6 vampires
  2 spriggans (shapeshifter)
  4 wyverns
  17 humans
  3 hungry ghosts
  A golden eye (Slime:1)
  6 basilisks
  A golden eye (shapeshifter) (D:14)
  16 vampire mosquitoes
  3 chaos spawn
  15 swamp worms
  4 wargs
  A soldier ant (D:15)
  61 nagas
  3 acid dragons
  14 insubstantial wisps
  A soldier ant (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  9 porcupines
  8 water moccasins
  42 orc warriors
  17 swamp drakes
  An ice beast (D:8)
  8 black bears
  A black bear (shapeshifter) (Depths:3)
  2 sky beasts
  8 eyes of draining
  10 boggarts
  12 wolves
  An elf skeleton (Vaults:4)
  31 ogres
  9 crocodiles
  18 centaurs
  A big kobold (D:9)
  11 bullfrogs
  An ogre simulacrum (Vaults:1)
  A glowing shapeshifter simulacrum (Vaults:3)
  A water moccasin zombie (D:11)
  5 scorpions
  3 killer bees (D:7)
  4 howler monkeys
  14 wights
  3 electric eels
  10 crimson imps
  A yaktaur simulacrum (Depths:1)
  7 hounds
  3 quasits
  29 orc priests
  3 jellies
  2 bullfrog skeletons
  An iron imp (Depths:5)
  An iguana (D:7)
  16 orc wizards
  15 worker ants
  A killer bee zombie (D:7)
  Robin (D:4)
  7 adders
  7 gnolls
  A howler monkey skeleton (D:7)
  8 shadow imps
  A white imp (Depths:2)
  2 ufetubi
  An adder skeleton (D:6)
  3 worms
  A dart slug (D:1)
  7 leopard geckos
  95 orcs
  4 bats
  2 giant cockroaches (D:6)
  14 goblins
  7 hobgoblins
  2 jackals (D:6)
  3 quokkas
  3 frilled lizards
  A jackal zombie (D:8)
  9 kobolds
  A leopard gecko skeleton (D:4)
  4 rats
  A crawling corpse (Vaults:2)
1803 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A slime creature (Slime:5)
  10 golden eyes
  An eye of draining (Slime:5)
12 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  2 fire giants
  A stone giant (Depths:4)
  A merfolk javelineer (Depths:2)
  2 yaktaur captains
  A tengu warrior (Depths:5)
  A deep troll (Vaults:3)
  A swamp dragon (Swamp:2)
  2 cyclopes (Depths:2)
  2 yaktaurs (Depths:5)
  A slime creature (Swamp:2)
  A spriggan (Swamp:2)
  2 boggarts
  An orc (Orc:2)
  A bush (Lair:2)
  A crawling corpse (Vaults:2)
  11 fungi
  11 plants
42 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 1857 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | cerealjynx the Minotaur Gladiator began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 18/18 MP: 0/0
   105 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 25/25 MP: 1/1
   919 | D:2      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  1032 | D:2      | Reached skill level 4 in Dodging
  1032 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 31/31 MP: 2/2
  1156 | D:2      | Found a hazy altar of Hepliaklqana.
  1315 | D:2      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  1344 | D:2      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  1354 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 38/38 MP: 3/3
  1855 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Long Blades
  1855 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 32/45 MP: 4/4
  1899 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  2015 | D:3      | Found an ornate altar of the Wu Jian Council.
  2029 | D:3      | Became a worshipper of the Wu Jian Council
  2253 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  2444 | D:4      | Got a heavily runed ring mail
  2446 | D:4      | Noticed Robin
  2822 | D:4      | Noticed a black bear
  2836 | D:4      | Killed a black bear
  2836 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 52/52 MP: 5/5
  2892 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Dodging
  2906 | D:4      | You fall through a shaft for 3 floors!
  2913 | D:7      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 34/60 MP: 6/6
  2915 | D:7      | Reached * piety under Wu Jian
  3395 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  3538 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  3600 | D:5      | Reached skill level 7 in Dodging
  3735 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 68/68 MP: 7/7
  3790 | D:4      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  3815 | D:4      | Killed Robin
  4213 | D:4      | Identified the +2 ring mail "Ynawkith" {rC- Regen+ Int+2} (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
  4242 | D:4      | Reached ** piety under Wu Jian
  4541 | D:5      | Reached skill level 8 in Dodging
  4931 | D:6      | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
  5148 | D:6      | Noticed Prince Ribbit
  5157 | D:6      | Killed Prince Ribbit
  5157 | D:6      | Reached skill level 9 in Dodging
  5157 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 78/78 MP: 8/8
  5512 | D:6      | Reached skill level 10 in Long Blades
  5673 | D:7      | Reached *** piety under Wu Jian
  6280 | D:8      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  6479 | D:8      | Found Hideng's Jewellery Boutique.
  6537 | D:8      | Noticed Psyche
  6544 | D:8      | Killed Psyche
  6544 | D:8      | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
  6850 | D:9      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  6953 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 85/88 MP: 9/9
  7176 | D:9      | Reached skill level 11 in Dodging
  7291 | D:9      | Reached **** piety under Wu Jian
  7645 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
  7658 | D:10     | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
  7734 | D:10     | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  7754 | D:9      | Killed a two-headed ogre
  7791 | D:10     | Reached skill level 12 in Dodging
  7860 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 97/97 MP: 10/10
  7976 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  8336 | D:10     | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  8352 | D:10     | Killed a two-headed ogre
  8931 | D:11     | Noticed Urug
  8942 | D:11     | Killed Urug
  8978 | D:11     | Noticed Snorg
  8991 | D:11     | Killed Snorg
  9029 | D:11     | Noticed a centaur warrior
  9042 | D:11     | Killed a centaur warrior
  9042 | D:11     | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
  9076 | D:11     | Noticed a two-headed ogre
  9081 | D:11     | Killed a two-headed ogre
  9081 | D:11     | Reached skill level 13 in Dodging
  9095 | D:11     | Noticed Josephine
  9109 | D:11     | Killed Josephine
  9526 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  9679 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
  9679 | Lair:1   | Noticed Sonja
  9935 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 105/107 MP: 11/11
 10143 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 15 in Long Blades
 10183 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 14 in Dodging
 10248 | Lair:2   | Reached ***** piety under Wu Jian
 10547 | Lair:2   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 10902 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 12170 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging
 12171 | Lair:5   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 12179 | Lair:5   | Killed a seven-headed hydra
 12233 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 88/117 MP: 12/12
 12314 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 12315 | Lair:5   | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 12370 | Lair:6   | Entered Level 6 of the Lair of Beasts
 13124 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 13153 | Orc:1    | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
 13595 | Orc:2    | Entered Level 2 of the Orcish Mines
 13595 | Orc:2    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 13683 | Orc:2    | Noticed a stone giant
 13692 | Orc:2    | Killed a stone giant
 13696 | Orc:2    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 13912 | Orc:2    | Found Ceyfeqavu's Food Shop.
 13968 | Orc:2    | Found Maca's General Store.
 13999 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 16 in Dodging
 14141 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 15077 | Orc:2    | Found Toenar's Antique Armour Emporium.
 15077 | Orc:2    | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium.
 15077 | Orc:2    | Found Joqouf's Gadget Shoppe.
 15081 | Orc:2    | Reached XP level 14. HP: 127/127 MP: 13/13
 15209 | Orc:2    | Found Eliwiny's Armour Emporium.
 15817 | Lair:5   | HP: 3/127 [death yak (12)]
 16984 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 17 in Dodging
 17315 | Lair:6   | Reached ****** piety under Wu Jian
 17335 | Lair:6   | HP: 5/129 [eight-headed hydra (11)]
 17975 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 10 in Shields
 18892 | Lair:6   | Got a polished dagger
 18893 | Lair:6   | Identified the +9 dagger "Hofiatz" {venom, *Slow rF+ rN+} (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
 20439 | D:13     | Reached XP level 15. HP: 137/137 MP: 14/14
 20498 | D:13     | Found a portal to a secret trove of treasure.
 20608 | D:13     | Reached skill level 18 in Dodging
 21078 | D:13     | Noticed a frost giant
 21089 | D:13     | Killed a frost giant
 21180 | D:13     | Noticed a sphinx
 21185 | D:13     | Paralysed by a sphinx for 6 turns
 21198 | D:13     | Killed a sphinx
 21534 | D:13     | Noticed a tengu reaver
 21551 | D:13     | Killed a tengu reaver
 21850 | D:13     | Noticed a fire giant
 21854 | D:13     | Got a pitted golden ring
 21860 | D:13     | Killed a fire giant
 21942 | D:13     | Found the +7 sceptre of Torment
 22274 | D:14     | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 22287 | Lab      | Entered a labyrinth
 26114 | Lab      | Identified the ring "Utyh" {MR- MP+9 Dex+5 Slay+6} (You found it on level 13 of the Dungeon)
 26118 | Lab      | Identified the Volume of Dusty Envenoming
 26118 | Lab      | Identified the Grimoire of Congealing Clay
 26144 | Lab      | Learned a level 2 spell: Passwall
 26148 | Lab      | Learned a level 3 spell: Ignite Poison
 26151 | Lab      | Learned a level 2 spell: Poisonous Vapours
 26464 | D:14     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 27309 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 27776 | D:14     | Reached skill level 19 in Dodging
 28029 | D:15     | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 28054 | D:15     | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 28112 | D:15     | Reached XP level 16. HP: 128/149 MP: 15/15
 28211 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 28406 | D:15     | Reached skill level 15 in Shields
 28565 | Orc:2    | Bought a scroll of enchant weapon for 127 gold pieces
 28636 | Orc:2    | Bought a +3 scale mail of poison resistance for 391 gold pieces
 28715 | Orc:2    | Bought a runed scale mail for 189 gold pieces
 28715 | Orc:2    | Bought a shiny scale mail for 189 gold pieces
 28747 | Orc:2    | Bought a shiny ring mail for 189 gold pieces
 28770 | Orc:2    | Bought a lightning rod (4/4) for 520 gold pieces
 28948 | Snake:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Snake Pit
 29175 | Snake:1  | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 30290 | Snake:2  | Noticed Aizul
 30789 | Snake:2  | Killed Aizul
 31089 | Snake:3  | Learned a level 1 spell: Apportation
 31091 | Snake:3  | Learned a level 1 spell: Summon Butterflies
 31095 | Snake:3  | Learned a level 3 spell: Lesser Beckoning
 31329 | Snake:3  | Reached skill level 20 in Dodging
 31762 | Snake:4  | Entered Level 4 of the Snake Pit
 31887 | Snake:4  | Reached XP level 17. HP: 156/158 MP: 19/19
 32022 | Snake:4  | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
 32284 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field. (EV +2) [mutagenic meat]
 32285 | Snake:4  | Gained mutation: You are somewhat resistant to further mutation. [mutagenic meat]
 32676 | Snake:4  | Got a serpentine rune of Zot
 32972 | Snake:4  | Reached skill level 21 in Dodging
 33391 | Swamp:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Swamp
 33525 | Swamp:1  | Noticed Nikola
 33961 | Swamp:2  | Upgraded the game from 0.21-a0-264-g3e31e41 to 0.21-a0-265-gb353147
 33970 | Swamp:2  | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
 35658 | Swamp:4  | Entered Level 4 of the Swamp
 35731 | Swamp:4  | Reached XP level 18. HP: 123/169 MP: 22/22
 35922 | Swamp:4  | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
 36367 | Swamp:4  | Got a decaying rune of Zot
 36814 | Swamp:1  | Killed Nikola
 36814 | Swamp:1  | Reached skill level 22 in Dodging
 37188 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
 39222 | Vaults:2 | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
 39333 | Vaults:2 | Paralysed by a floating eye for 3 turns
 39345 | Vaults:2 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 177/177 MP: 25/25
 39447 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 23 in Dodging
 40071 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Evocations
 40603 | Vaults:2 | Got an encrusted large shield
 40614 | Vaults:2 | Identified the +1 large shield "Kaujiaf" {Stlth+} (You acquired it on level 2 of the Vaults)
 40791 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
 40997 | Vaults:3 | Found Gozag's Antique Weapon Emporium.
 42604 | Vaults:3 | Found an opulent altar of Gozag.
 42607 | Vaults:3 | Found Gozag's Antique Weapon Shoppe.
 42609 | Vaults:3 | Found Gozag's Assorted Antiques.
 42828 | Vaults:3 | Paralysed by a sphinx for 6 turns
 42835 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 24 in Dodging
 42835 | Vaults:3 | Reached XP level 20. HP: 171/184 MP: 26/26
 44975 | Slime:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Pits of Slime
 45472 | Slime:5  | Entered Level 5 of the Pits of Slime
 45504 | Slime:5  | Gained mutation: Your body sometimes deteriorates upon taking damage. [a shining eye]
 45855 | Slime:4  | Reached skill level 25 in Dodging
 45855 | Slime:4  | Reached XP level 21. HP: 162/195 MP: 27/27
 46064 | Slime:5  | Noticed the Royal Jelly
 47315 | Slime:3  | Paralysed by a great orb of eyes for 2 turns
 47789 | Slime:5  | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 48078 | Depths:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Depths
 49168 | Depths:1 | Found a gateway to a ziggurat.
 49365 | Depths:1 | Found a gateway to Hell.
 50050 | Depths:2 | Noticed the Enchantress
 50053 | Depths:2 | Noticed Jorgrun
 50442 | Depths:2 | Killed Jorgrun
 50891 | D:13     | You paid a toll of a +6 demon whip to enter a treasure trove
 50892 | Trove    | Entered a treasure trove
 50900 | Trove    | Got a steaming bronze ring
 50902 | Trove    | Got a wavering tin ring
 50904 | Trove    | Got a scintillating iron ring
 50908 | Trove    | Got a warped copper amulet
 50917 | Trove    | Identified the amulet of Poihon {Gourm rElec Str+3} (You found it in a treasure trove)
 50929 | Trove    | Got a pair of encrusted gloves
 50940 | Trove    | Identified the +1 pair of gloves "Fevu" {Dex+3} (You found it in a treasure trove)
 50942 | Trove    | Identified the ring "Ymaabb" {Fire Str-3 Int+4 Dex+5 SInv} (You found it in a treasure trove)
 50944 | Trove    | Identified the ring of Xyttep {rElec rC+ Int+3} (You found it in a treasure trove)
 50946 | Trove    | Identified the ring of Ris Guuffirgh {rC+ rN+} (You found it in a treasure trove)
 51364 | Depths:2 | Reached XP level 22. HP: 201/206 MP: 28/28
 51432 | Depths:1 | Cast into level 4 of the Abyss (the Enchantress)
 51439 | Abyss:4  | Found a corrupted altar of Lugonu.
 51447 | Depths:1 | Escaped the Abyss
 51452 | Depths:1 | Killed the Enchantress
 51455 | Depths:1 | Got faerie dragon scales
 51466 | Depths:1 | Identified the +2 faerie dragon scales {+Fly rC+ rCorr Slay+2 Clar} (You took it off the Enchantress on level 1 of the Depths)
 51477 | Depths:1 | Got a transparent marble ring
 51531 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 26 in Dodging
 51882 | Depths:2 | Identified the Disquisition on the Oath and Ignition
 52626 | Depths:3 | Paralysed by a sphinx for 4 turns
 52912 | Depths:3 | Found Byophico's One-of-a-Kind Books.
 53050 | Depths:3 | Found a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss.
 53591 | Depths:4 | Found Wischaj's General Store.
 53689 | Depths:4 | Learned a level 3 spell: Regeneration
 54260 | Depths:4 | Reached XP level 23. HP: 213/213 MP: 29/29
 54394 | Depths:4 | Identified the ring "Elefox" {rElec rN+ Str+3 Dex-2 SInv} (You took it off a spriggan on level 1 of the Depths)
 54441 | Depths:4 | Noticed a caustic shrike
 54441 | Depths:4 | Noticed a juggernaut
 54450 | Depths:4 | Killed a caustic shrike
 54460 | Depths:4 | Killed a juggernaut
 54462 | Depths:4 | Noticed an ancient lich
 54699 | Depths:4 | Killed an ancient lich
 54895 | Depths:4 | Noticed a juggernaut
 54910 | Depths:4 | Killed a juggernaut
 54936 | Depths:4 | Identified a +0 pair of boots of running (You found it on level 4 of the Depths)
 55120 | Depths:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Depths
 55294 | Depths:5 | Found a runed gate.
 55294 | Depths:5 | Found a runed gate.
 55294 | Depths:5 | Found a runed gate.
 55294 | Depths:5 | Found a runed gate.
 55294 | Depths:5 | Found a runed gate.
 55294 | Depths:5 | Found a runed gate.
 55295 | Depths:5 | Found the +2 Maxwell's thermic engine {flame, freeze, rF- rC-}
 55440 | Depths:5 | Reached skill level 27 in Dodging
 56106 | Depths:5 | Found a gate to the Realm of Zot.
 57125 | Vaults:3 | Bought a scroll of enchant armour for 750 gold pieces

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Long Blades    |     4     5  6     8  9 11 13 14 16                                  | 16.4
Fighting       |     3        4     5  6  7  9 10 11 12 13 15 16 17       18 19       | 19.5
Dodging        |     4        5  6  7  9 10 12 13 15 16 17 19 20 21 22 24 25    26 27 | 27.0
Shields        |                                      7 11 14 15          16 18 20 23 | 23.1
Evocations     |                                               4  7  9 10             | 10.0
Armour         |                                                  4  8 10 12 13 14    | 14.0
Throwing       |                                                                      |  2.0

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Long sword        |    39 |    82 |   304 |   273 |       |       |       |       ||   698
       Headbutt          |     7 |    23 |    81 |   137 |   304 |   342 |   525 |   245 ||  1664
       Double sword      |       |       |       |   289 |   973 |  1052 |  1440 |   663 ||  4417
       Dagger            |       |       |       |       |    94 |       |       |       ||    94
Throw: Tomahawk          |       |     3 |     2 |     5 |     8 |       |       |       ||    18
       Throwing net      |       |     1 |     2 |     1 |     2 |       |       |       ||     6
       Javelin           |       |       |       |     7 |     3 |     5 |     1 |     6 ||    22
Invok: Serpent's Lash    |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |     1 |     2 |       ||     5
       Heavenly Storm    |       |       |       |       |     1 |     3 |     2 |     2 ||     8
 Abil: Evoke Flight      |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |    32 |    14 |    10 |    11 |     3 |     2 ||    72
       Box of beasts     |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |     1 |       ||     2
       Lightning rod     |       |       |       |       |       |     8 |    10 |       ||    18
       Lamp of fire      |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     2 |     1 ||     4
       Sack of spiders   |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |       |       |    15 |    16 |    16 |    17 |    16 |     8 ||    88
       Potion            |       |       |     2 |     5 |     8 |     1 |     6 |       ||    22
 Stab: Paralysed         |       |       |     4 |       |       |       |       |       ||     4
       Held in net/web   |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Petrified         |       |       |       |       |     6 |       |       |       ||     6
       Distracted        |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |     3 ||     4
       Sleeping          |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     5 ||     5
  Eat: Chunk             |     1 |     4 |    15 |    17 |    26 |    34 |    18 |    16 ||   131
       Fruit             |       |       |       |     3 |     3 |       |     6 |     2 ||    14
       Bread ration      |       |       |       |       |     5 |       |     4 |       ||     9
       Meat ration       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
Armor: Leather armour    |     5 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||     5
       Ring mail         |     6 |    28 |    64 |    88 |   129 |    15 |       |       ||   330
       Gold dragon scale |       |       |       |       |       |   104 |   317 |     9 ||   430
       Acid dragon scale |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    26 ||    26
Dodge: Dodged            |    25 |    79 |   221 |   331 |   576 |   425 |   421 |   220 ||  2298
       Deflected         |       |       |       |     1 |    12 |    30 |    47 |    11 ||   101
Block: Shield            |       |       |       |       |   413 |   493 |    96 |       ||  1002
       Large shield      |       |       |       |       |       |       |   974 |   536 ||  1510
       Reflection        |       |       |       |       |       |       |     8 |    62 ||    70
Rpst.: Long sword        |    11 |    26 |    58 |    24 |       |       |       |       ||   119
       Double sword      |       |       |       |    35 |    97 |    60 |    68 |    30 ||   290

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Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 21:25

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

cerealjynx wrote:So, this post inspired me to make a Dex focused character. Mi because headbutt, Long blades because riposte, Wu because spinning attacks. Would this particular character have been better off investing in Str? (Yeah, GDS are a bit heavy, check out the FaDS that Enchantress dropped, I have like 40 EV with that thing!)


Offensively, str would be better than dex, headbutt gets bonus damage from str, and both str and dex weight evenly for the chance of doing one, riposte is a chance at a chance at an extra attack, the difference in the number of ripostes generated by the additional missed attacks from the additional ev from 9 more points of dex, will not result in anywhere close to the extra damage str adds to every hit, even with the lighter armour

Defensively, in gda, 9 str would actually give you *more* ev than 9 dex would (so in gda, str even gives you more ripostes than dex does) with the fda, you do have a higher ev with the dex than with the str, but gda+str is better total protection than fda+dex.

So yes you would've been better off investing in str over dex.
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Post Sunday, 10th September 2017, 23:49

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Personally I just sum all 3 defenses together. If you have a sum of 60 you are generally pretty good. 80 is endgame good and 120 is incredibly hard to kill (I generaly only get 120 on a deck out statuepode).

After that you just need to figure in whether your defenses work well against spells. Rmsl with good EV or Dmsl with ok EV can compensate for poor resistances or vice versa.

Whether you do that with Str or Dex depends on build but obviously if you can do it with Str its better because Str is much better for damage. While Str -> heavy AC + SH is a very good build that helps to do damage, you can easily make a statue form with high EV and Dmsl that is much much safer against most spells and still has SH reflection. However for something like statuepode or dragopode (as an example) high strength is very useful because the auxiliaries do a lot more damage and AC penetration can be significant issue on aux attacks.

However its important to note that going for more damage on something dragon form is essentially overkill, even when extra STR is even more of an effect to increased base damage as well. You can have a natural str of 8 and still hit for 150 damage with just the bite with good skills. So while 40-50 str dragon is satisfying to a certain degree getting some dex for better Dmsl defense may be better even with the utter shit EV penalty a dragon has. Dmsls at 10 EV vs 20 EV is very easy to feel and makes a large difference. Now both dragon builds are viable as a 15 rune game (I did high STR with mahkleb on OpFi for example). But the higher dex one has more margin of error. Of course the high Str one can two pan lords.

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 04:46

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Direct comparison of Str and Dex in a character-agnostic way is not really practical. It's not just that they affect different things, they affect those things in totally different ways: str has linear returns on damage after 10, whereas the effect of dex on incoming damage is extremely complicated and depends on the monster you're fighting.
Str is consistently going to beat Dex on MiGl but that's sort of like complaining that int is consistently better than str on a DEFE. The way DCSS is set up, there are going to be oodles of characters where stat choice is a no-brainer. The metagame may not be centered around stabbers right now, but they still exist as an entire character archetype and certainly favor dex. It's not just for stab damage, it also increases the chance of successfully stabbing in the first place and provides a linear bonus to stealth. Certainly a bigger damage boost than Str.

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 14:28

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

severen wrote:Personally I just sum all 3 defenses together. If you have a sum of 60 you are generally pretty good. 80 is endgame good and 120 is incredibly hard to kill (I generaly only get 120 on a deck out statuepode).


Looking back at some of my winning morgues, it was only GrBe's and a minotaur with a lucky plate mail artifact that approached these values in 3-5 rune games. Are these guidelines for extended? If so, please suggest benchmarks for 3-rune games. I've been using something Lasty said a while ago: 20 for Lair, 30 for Vaults, 40 for Depths. These I can accomplish fairly consistently.
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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 15:25

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

60 defenses is my 3rune ready for endgame threshhold. I typically have characters end between 60-80.

Also, the reason dex characters aren't in the meta right now is because dex is in a bad spot right now.

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 16:03

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

edgefigaro wrote:60 defenses is my 3rune ready for endgame threshhold. I typically have characters end between 60-80.

Also, the reason dex characters aren't in the meta right now is because dex is in a bad spot right now.


How does one do that with a caster who's in light armor for spell success? Is the moral of the story, don't play those types of characters? If so, then why does, say, robe of archmagi exists, unless it's a trap on the level of scythe?
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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 16:43

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

MainiacJoe wrote:
edgefigaro wrote:60 defenses is my 3rune ready for endgame threshhold. I typically have characters end between 60-80.

Also, the reason dex characters aren't in the meta right now is because dex is in a bad spot right now.


How does one do that with a caster who's in light armor for spell success? Is the moral of the story, don't play those types of characters? If so, then why does, say, robe of archmagi exists, unless it's a trap on the level of scythe?



I am not really sure what you are trying to get at. A caster start like IE doesn't need any defenses at all to clear lair AND really won't have much use for strength in general. It not really germane to this thread. I am pretty certain that Ice Beast alone with a total sum of 0 defenses (which isn't even gonna happen) can clear Lair if you play smart.

The numbers I used are specifically for a mostly melee character. But also TOTAL defense of 20 is shit. That's 10 AC and 10 EV. Or 5AC 15 EV. I mean anyone with ok Dex and some dodge trained can get 5/15. Seriously that's crap by Lair. 15/15 is not hard by lair with some concentration or luck. If you use a shield like by starting fighter you could easily be 15/10/10 and be at 35. Personally I like little more than that to melee Death yaks more like 40, but its doable at 30-35.

At 20 total defense a hydra will tear you apart, and a death yak will be extremely dangerous. Are there ways to deal with this? Sure. But for a pure melee scenario is super unsafe for lair without help. Of some sort. There exist multiple ways to clear lair with almost no defense. As you avail yourself of those options you will need less and less defense.

Edit: I mean seriously 5/15? I can and have made an Octopode with more armor and better dodge multiple time on multiple backgrounds ... I mean I made an OpFi that was PURE no transmutation UC (Oka->Zin) with more than 30 total defense by Lair3, I believe he had over 40 by bottom of lair.

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 16:53

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

What I'm trying to get at is 1) I don't see how to get to AC + EV + SH = 60 without quite heavy armor and 2) I don't see how in a three-rune game one can cast 6+ level spells in such heavy armor. So high-level spells and the sum=60 benchmark feel mutually exclusive.
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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 17:03

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

MainiacJoe wrote:What I'm trying to get at is 1) I don't see how to get to AC + EV + SH = 60 without quite heavy armor and 2) I don't see how in a three-rune game one can cast 6+ level spells in such heavy armor. So high-level spells and the sum=60 benchmark feel mutually exclusive.



These numbers don't really apply to pure blasters. If you glaciate everything you don't need much defense, you just need to kill stuff before it gets to you. I know some people will say you won't get glaciate for a 3 rune but I, and many others, have gotten glaciate/fire storm castable in mid-vaults. Is this the most XP efficient caster strat? No. But that doesn't matter. Its doable and winnable and does not require 60 defenses.

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=22831&p=305688&hilit=opfi#p305688

However this guy had no casting penalty and had 101 total defenses. Note that he 15 runed with pure melee (i.e. pummeled Cerebov and Antaeus) with 11 AC. Admittedly those stats are from 15 rune gear and he found that Sheild of Ignorance on Lair2 or whatever.

A DE with 17 dex ( which is normal) can easily get 20 EV, wearing leather armor +3 & +2 boots & +2cloak & +2helmet is 15AC so that right there is 35 with nothing special. Use a buckler for 6-8 SH and you are over 40 total. Which is pretty fine for a mostly non-melee caster. But keep in mind a DE could easily get to 30EV if they wanted.

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 17:08

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Ozo's is a good spell and will rarely show up in your morgue values.

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 17:15

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

edgefigaro wrote:Ozo's is a good spell and will rarely show up in your morgue values.


Right in reality he usually had about 22 AC. And that DE example could get to 50 total easy with ozo.

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 17:20

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

edgefigaro wrote:60 defenses is my 3rune ready for endgame threshhold.
That's really weird and also completely irrelevant to the topic, but ok.
edgefigaro wrote:Also, the reason dex characters aren't in the meta right now is because dex is in a bad spot right now.
The reason SpEn is less prevalent in the meta right now is that controlled teleportation was removed, along with a reduction in the availability of even random teleports and the removal of most strong high-level spells. Swagjacking is harder in general and killing things with melee has become more turn-efficient (new statue form etc). You can also blame things like the resistance nerf, but saying it's because of dexterity strikes me as bizarre since the last time dexterity and intelligence changed substantively was 2010, and it's not like str is so good that Tr is the ideal speedrun race.

And like, disregarding the meta, does anyone want to claim that En is weak after XL1?

That all said, I'd be perfectly happy to see the defensive benefits of Str go away.

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 18:09

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

I'm not blaming dex. Dex being in a weak place isn't a result of changes to the Dex stat (exception: weapon damage scaling change). Largely, the game has changed to make dex characters less viable for reasons you mention, and specifically in the realm of physical characters, both pure and partial, to make str the clear option.

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 18:35

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

The effect of dex on damage was microscopic

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 18:53

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

The effect of dex on damage was microscopic for non-whip maces and flails, 2h polearms, and all axes. 1H polearms and 2h swords were relatively split from str/dex weighting. 1H swords, staves, and daggers all scaled better with dex than str at the time.

Specifically in the cases of lajatangs and demon weapons, dex was better than strength for damage scaling, and it gave the characters options to scale into the endgame better.

Edit: I don't know how accurate this statement is. These weapons had a str weighting of 30%, thus 70% dex weight. I understood that to mean that dex was ~twice as good at raising damage on these weapons as str was.

Knowing crawl, it totally wouldn't suprise me it wasn't that simple.

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 21:07

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

edgefigaro wrote:The effect of dex on damage was microscopic for non-whip maces and flails, 2h polearms, and all axes. 1H polearms and 2h swords were relatively split from str/dex weighting. 1H swords, staves, and daggers all scaled better with dex than str at the time.

Specifically in the cases of lajatangs and demon weapons, dex was better than strength for damage scaling, and it gave the characters options to scale into the endgame better.

Edit: I don't know how accurate this statement is. These weapons had a str weighting of 30%, thus 70% dex weight. I understood that to mean that dex was ~twice as good at raising damage on these weapons as str was.
Absolutely, completely, entirely wrong. A weapon with a str weighting of 3 (which is "30% strength 70% dexterity") got 65% of its damage bonus from strength and 35% of it from dexterity, i.e. strength was almost twice as good as dexterity. And the damage bonus was half of what it is now.

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 23:24

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

edgefigaro wrote:The effect of dex on damage was microscopic for non-whip maces and flails, 2h polearms, and all axes. 1H polearms and 2h swords were relatively split from str/dex weighting. 1H swords, staves, and daggers all scaled better with dex than str at the time.

Specifically in the cases of lajatangs and demon weapons, dex was better than strength for damage scaling, and it gave the characters options to scale into the endgame better.

Edit: I don't know how accurate this statement is. These weapons had a str weighting of 30%, thus 70% dex weight. I understood that to mean that dex was ~twice as good at raising damage on these weapons as str was.

Knowing crawl, it totally wouldn't suprise me it wasn't that simple.


Str weight of 0 corresponded with 50% of the bonus damage coming from str, and 50% from dex, 10 (max) was 100% from str.
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Post Tuesday, 12th September 2017, 02:23

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

STR vs DEX
For stabbers/pure casters : DEX > STR (but STR vs DEX usually doesn't matter for pure casters)
For everyone else : STR >>> DEX
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Post Tuesday, 12th September 2017, 06:52

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

papilio wrote:STR vs DEX
For stabbers/pure casters : DEX > STR (but STR vs DEX usually doesn't matter for pure casters)
For everyone else : STR >>> DEX

No. STR is better for casters, as it allows them to wear better armour.
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Post Tuesday, 12th September 2017, 07:11

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Majang wrote:No. STR is better for casters, as it allows them to wear better armour.

This depends on what armour is available. Sometimes a good robe is the best option for a caster. Sometimes you find a good ring mail which does not require a lot of str etc.
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Post Tuesday, 12th September 2017, 07:25

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Note that papilio wrote about pure casters. Armour is overrated for pure casters. High level spells are uncastable in heavy armour and ring mail does not give much protection over robe (even ignoring Ozo Armour here). Of course if you are a hybrid, you cannot train Armour AND Dodging AND magic schools so usually people ignore either Armour (Sp, En), Dodging (HO in plate armour) or barely count as hybrids because they invested heavily into both Armour and Dodging and can use just low level spells.
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Post Tuesday, 12th September 2017, 09:59

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

I guess that a pure caster might aim for troll leather or swamp dragon? A DE mage starts around 5 str, maybe he could use a couple points more? But I don't think dex comes into question, it's just str vs int. There's also the fact that AC works against many things that EV is useless against (OOD, fireballs, damage while petrified-paralysed, airstrike, shatter, LRD). Most attacks that bypass AC (smite, damnation, shrieking stars) also ignore EV. In the end, EV only seems good to me against electric stuff, although I might be mixing up things, or missing some.
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Post Tuesday, 12th September 2017, 10:52

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Shtopit wrote: In the end, EV only seems good to me against electric stuff, although I might be mixing up things, or missing some.

Consider a scenario where you're fighting something that hits really hard (extreme example: juggernaut) so that if you get hit you will have to bail out and reset the fight. Having more AC means that you will have more HP left but you still (most probably) have to reset the fight. Having more EV means that you have a bigger chance of not having to reset the fight.

Of course you generally try to arrange things so that you don't get hit by such monsters at all... and definitely so if one hit can kill you.
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Post Tuesday, 12th September 2017, 11:47

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

See my signature. I would rather have +5 EV than +5 AC vs orb of fire. True, extra 5 AC might save a couple of HP (or not, GDR does not apply to non-melee attacks) but difference between dodging 60 damage from bolt of fire and not dodging it is huge.
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Post Wednesday, 13th September 2017, 10:42

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Sprucery wrote:Consider a scenario where you're fighting something that hits really hard (extreme example: juggernaut) so that if you get hit you will have to bail out and reset the fight. Having more AC means that you will have more HP left but you still (most probably) have to reset the fight. Having more EV means that you have a bigger chance of not having to reset the fight.

Of course you generally try to arrange things so that you don't get hit by such monsters at all... and definitely so if one hit can kill you.


This is true, but I'd prefer a shield to EV in this case. I almost never go two handed, so it's a playstyle I didn't think of.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:See my signature. I would rather have +5 EV than +5 AC vs orb of fire. True, extra 5 AC might save a couple of HP (or not, GDR does not apply to non-melee attacks) but difference between dodging 60 damage from bolt of fire and not dodging it is huge.

The bolt of fire objection stands, but it doesn't consider that you are better off with rF+++ or rF++ than a lot of EV, at least from my pov, simply because you know what to expect and don't have to rely on a roll. Plus they're swappable.
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Post Wednesday, 13th September 2017, 11:45

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Shtopit wrote:The bolt of fire objection stands, but it doesn't consider that you are better off with rF+++ or rF++ than a lot of EV, at least from my pov, simply because you know what to expect and don't have to rely on a roll. Plus they're swappable.


See Sprucery's comment then, there is no resistance vs melee attacks from Ettins/Hill Giants etc.
Basically we need to compare fsims with +5 AC and +5 EV but I am too lazy to run them especially because conclusions greatly depend on monster and your initial AC/EV.
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Post Wednesday, 13th September 2017, 12:10

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Basically we need to compare fsims with +5 AC and +5 EV but I am too lazy to run them especially because conclusions greatly depend on monster and your initial AC/EV.

And even fsim results don't tell everything. For example, with +5 AC I could lose less HP on average than with +5 EV but I would possibly have to reset more fights (which can mean using consumables).
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Post Wednesday, 13th September 2017, 12:24

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Sprucery wrote:And even fsim results don't tell everything. For example, with +5 AC I could lose less HP on average than with +5 EV but I would possibly have to reset more fights (which can mean using consumables).


How is that? The difference cannot be more than 2-3 HP per attack. Ok, 5 HP if you want to reset fight every time your luck with AC roll is not maxed :)
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Post Wednesday, 13th September 2017, 14:15

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Shtopit wrote:The bolt of fire objection stands, but it doesn't consider that you are better off with rF+++ or rF++ than a lot of EV, at least from my pov, simply because you know what to expect and don't have to rely on a roll. Plus they're swappable.


See Sprucery's comment then, there is no resistance vs melee attacks from Ettins/Hill Giants etc.
Basically we need to compare fsims with +5 AC and +5 EV but I am too lazy to run them especially because conclusions greatly depend on monster and your initial AC/EV.

Well, and *which* +5 EV/+5 AC makes a difference too, the EV bonus from 25 to 30 is more important than the EV bonus from 60 to 65 (as a ridiculous example).
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Post Wednesday, 13th September 2017, 14:29

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Siegurt wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:See Sprucery's comment then, there is no resistance vs melee attacks from Ettins/Hill Giants etc.
Basically we need to compare fsims with +5 AC and +5 EV but I am too lazy to run them especially because conclusions greatly depend on monster and your initial AC/EV.

Well, and *which* +5 EV/+5 AC makes a difference too, the EV bonus from 25 to 30 is more important than the EV bonus from 60 to 65 (as a ridiculous example).


That's what I meant with "your initial AC/EV"
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Post Wednesday, 13th September 2017, 21:40

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Sprucery wrote:And even fsim results don't tell everything. For example, with +5 AC I could lose less HP on average than with +5 EV but I would possibly have to reset more fights (which can mean using consumables).


How is that? The difference cannot be more than 2-3 HP per attack. Ok, 5 HP if you want to reset fight every time your luck with AC roll is not maxed :)

I was thinking something like this: with +5 AC I could take an average of 10 points of damage in a fight. Let's have ten fights and damage {10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10}. With +5 EV I could take more damage on average, say 11.25 points, but if the distribution is like {12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 0} this could be better as I take no damage in one fight.

(Of course the actual numbers in the example aren't important but the idea that completely evading damage more often can be better than taking less damage on average).

Disclaimer: I don't know how fsim works :)
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Post Thursday, 14th September 2017, 06:48

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

VeryAngryFelid wrote:See my signature. I would rather have +5 EV than +5 AC vs orb of fire. True, extra 5 AC might save a couple of HP (or not, GDR does not apply to non-melee attacks) but difference between dodging 60 damage from bolt of fire and not dodging it is huge.


Come on, man. If you have one rank of rF (otherwise you are going to die), that's a max damage fire bolt you're talking about, 1 in 40^3 chance. With the recommended rF++ against an orb of fire, you're looking at fire bolt damage in the range from 1 to 40, strongly concentrated around 21. +5 EV is going to give you somewhat less than 10% better chance of dodging the bolt of fire for any reasonable value of EV you start with and a fair bit less than 10% for some unreasonable values. That's not much different, but less, than the reduction you'll get from AC, except that AC works on fireballs and EV doesn't.
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Post Thursday, 14th September 2017, 09:47

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

watertreatmentRL wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:See my signature. I would rather have +5 EV than +5 AC vs orb of fire. True, extra 5 AC might save a couple of HP (or not, GDR does not apply to non-melee attacks) but difference between dodging 60 damage from bolt of fire and not dodging it is huge.


Come on, man. If you have one rank of rF (otherwise you are going to die), that's a max damage fire bolt you're talking about, 1 in 40^3 chance. With the recommended rF++ against an orb of fire, you're looking at fire bolt damage in the range from 1 to 40, strongly concentrated around 21. +5 EV is going to give you somewhat less than 10% better chance of dodging the bolt of fire for any reasonable value of EV you start with and a fair bit less than 10% for some unreasonable values. That's not much different, but less, than the reduction you'll get from AC, except that AC works on fireballs and EV doesn't.
RF++ makes extra AC worse than extra EV. Why? Because AC is applied before resistances. So your maxed AC roll saved 5 damage which is really 1 damage saved because rF++ divides 5 extra damage by 3. Come on indeed.
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Post Thursday, 14th September 2017, 09:49

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Sprucery wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Sprucery wrote:And even fsim results don't tell everything. For example, with +5 AC I could lose less HP on average than with +5 EV but I would possibly have to reset more fights (which can mean using consumables).


How is that? The difference cannot be more than 2-3 HP per attack. Ok, 5 HP if you want to reset fight every time your luck with AC roll is not maxed :)

I was thinking something like this: with +5 AC I could take an average of 10 points of damage in a fight. Let's have ten fights and damage {10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10}. With +5 EV I could take more damage on average, say 11.25 points, but if the distribution is like {12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 0} this could be better as I take no damage in one fight.

(Of course the actual numbers in the example aren't important but the idea that completely evading damage more often can be better than taking less damage on average).

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Post Thursday, 14th September 2017, 10:17

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Your marginal ~8% chance of dodging the fire bolt will save you an average of approximately 1.6 damage per bolt. I didn't think through how the rounding works, you may be correct that you get slightly more damage reduction against fire bolts from the EV than the AC, maybe .2 damage per shot. It remains the case that EV does nothing at all against fireballs.
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Post Thursday, 14th September 2017, 10:27

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

I don't think this is a correct approach. Players don't die to average damage. We don't care about saving 1 damage on 40+ damage attack or saving 3 damage on 120 damage attack. I don't see why players prefer to get 39 damage instead of 41 when they can choose 8% to avoid all damage.
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Post Thursday, 14th September 2017, 10:28

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Also let's not pretend every character has rf++
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Post Thursday, 14th September 2017, 10:37

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

Why would you not have rF++ in one of like three fights with the most dangerous monster in the game at the very end of the game... You need one source of rF and a potion...

If your fear is spikier damage, I regret to inform you that opting for EV over AC is exactly the way you make damage spikier. In the case of OOF bolts of fire, the average reduction is similar, but AC takes the reduction off the top end of the distribution, while EV takes it out of the nonzero damage part of the distribution evenly across all damage values. OOFs do a lot of damage in a typical rF++ fight not because their attacks are super high damage, but because they attack a lot of times.
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Post Thursday, 14th September 2017, 10:42

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

watertreatmentRL wrote:Why would you not have rF++ in one of like three fights with the most dangerous monster in the game at the very end of the game... You need one source of rF and a potion...


Because I can be mummy, worship Ru with no potions or have rF- sacrifice, or just be unlucky and run out of potions.

If your fear is spikier damage, I regret to inform you that opting for EV over AC is exactly the way you make damage spikier. In the case of OOF bolts of fire, the average reduction is similar, but AC takes the reduction off the top end of the distribution, while EV takes it out of the nonzero damage part of the distribution evenly across all damage values.


This is interesting problem. I realize that technically you are right (AC minimizes possible max damage), yet damage spikes do have probabilities and EV decreases it significantly and I would rather have 5% chance to get 120-129 damage than 13% chance to get 118-127 (numbers are written out of my head just to show you what I mean). For me the latter is more spikey even if it means less max damage than in the former case.

OOFs do a lot of damage in a typical rF++ fight not because their attacks are super high damage, but because they attack a lot of times.


and this means we save more damage by using extra EV than extra AC because we still have rF++...
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Post Thursday, 14th September 2017, 11:15

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

There is a precise sense in which AC gives superior reduction in "spikiness," but I wouldn't want to bore everyone...

Lots of attacks from OOFs mean that you will get hit with a lot of fireballs, which will quickly wash out any slight edge the EV has in the fire bolt case.
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Post Thursday, 14th September 2017, 12:35

Re: Is Strength just better than Dexterity? (Spoiler: yes.)

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Because I can be mummy, worship Ru with no potions or have rF- sacrifice, or just be unlucky and run out of potions.

As a side note, these are cases in which you can build a strategy early on being certain of your rF situation. So they are, in a way, lucky cases, because you can prepare and point on EV (which however won't do anything if you get fireballed, which is something oof can and will do).

In general, however, I don't think I've ever played a game in which I hadn't found at least one ring of fire and one ring of rF+ before reaching Zot. So I think you really would need rF- to have problems reaching rF++.

Generally I don't consider potions of resistance, because they are very rare and I don't expect to have them for all fire orbs, especially since I will probably have used the early ones against elec.
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