Need Advice With Humans

[MainiacJoe]

So how does one play humans? I've done best with VM, even though that's supposed to be more difficult than Ne and IE which I've had trouble with. I have a hunch that I'm trying to get the starting book online quickly when I don't have the aptitudes to do that all at once without my defenses getting too far behind. What do you suggest?

Deaths:

  Code:

HuVM          XL:1     D:1         0     leopard gecko
HuVM          XL:6     D:4       307     centaur skeleton
HuVM          XL:1     D:1         3     hobgoblin
HuVM^Kiku     XL:12    L:1     12301     black mamba
HuVM^Trog     XL:6     D:3       345     quit (faded altar)
HuVM^Fedh     XL:8     D:5       977     water moccasin
HuVM^Kiku     XL:12    L:3     12387     blink frog pack
HuVM^Veh      XL:11    L:2      5904     black mamba
HuVM          XL:1     D:1         1     leopard gecko
HuVM^Kiku     XL:5     D:6       159     Prince Ribbit after 2 shafts
HuVM^Kiku     XL:8     D:7      1069     warg
HuVM^Kiku     XL:17    A:1    118324     merfolk impaler band (stupid)
HuVM          XL:1     D:1         3     hobgoblin
HuVM          XL:4     D:2        91     Natasha (in pig form)
HuVM          XL:4     D:3        79     orc wizard
HuVM^Kiku     XL:8     Sewer    1103     bullfrog
HuVM          XL:9     D:5      2068     invisible orc warrior
HuVM          XL:3     D:1        28     kobold (rPois somehow)
HuVM          XL:4     D:2        91     goblin (adder poison)
HuVM^Kiku     XL:13    L:5     21965     seven-headed hydra
HuVM          XL:8     D:5       759     ice beast
HuVM^Zin      XL:8     D:5      1335     killer bee zombie
HuNe^Makh     XL:11    D:9      8668     unseen horror
HuNe          XL:1     D:1         5     bat
HuNe          XL:5     D:3       107     orc priest
HuNe          XL:6     D:4       289     orc
HuNe          XL:3     D:2        42     Sigmund
HuNe          XL:1     D:1         4     jackal
HuNe          XL:6     D:3       323     sky beast
HuNe          XL:4     D:3        88     Grinder
HuWn          XL:5     D:2        99     adder
HuWn^Makh     XL:4     D:3        63     jelly
HuWn^Ru       XL:11    O:1     10578     orc knight
HuWn          XL:4     D:1        55     adder
HuIE          XL:7     D:4       384     Eustachio's iron imp
HuIE          XL:8     D:5       759     ice beast
HuIE          XL:5     D:3       114     Natasha
HuIE^Ru       XL:8     D:6      1295     hornet zombie
HuIE          XL:3     D:2        43     Robin's goblin
HuIE          XL:5     D:4       170     worker ant
HuIE^Kiku     XL:10    D:7      3546     two-headed ogre


[WingedEspeon]

If you just want to win a human, go Be.

I seem to do best as melee with Hu, but then again I do about as well with DE melee as DE caster.

[MainiacJoe]

If you just want to win a human, go Be.

Well I am trying to win Hu, so yeah, but I'm hoping to do something a little less boring and to progress towards greatrole and /or pantheon also. Maybe with several more losses I'll go Trog just to get it over with!

[NhorianScum]

Human earth/air elementalist is pretty braindead with a strong low/no invo god (Veh is not strong)

[MainiacJoe]

Human earth/air elementalist is pretty braindead with a strong low/no invo god (Veh is not strong)

So Ru? Seems to me that every other strong god needs some investment in a skill (Invo/Necro)

[WingedEspeon]

Heavy armour with Nem is about as strong as Be once you get Nem.

[Sprucery]

If you can stand allies you can also try HuSu for a change. And HuHu is of course also good.

[NhorianScum]

So Ru? Seems to me that every other strong god needs some investment in a skill (Invo/Necro)

Gozag has no invo. Mak and Hep can be safely used at very low invo for most of the game.

(I'd suggest kiku but you've splatted a god number of kikududes.)

[MackTheKnife]

There really is no specific way to play humans, simply getting better at crawl fundamentals will let you win with them. Pick HuWn and practice making the most of the resources given!

[Plantissue]

I don't understand how someone who has won 24 times before, with a wide variety of species and backgrounds and gods could have trouble with Human, a species with no real special playstyle disadvantages.

That said you are dying from D:1 to D:3 an obscene number of times.

[MainiacJoe]

I don't understand how someone who has won 24 times before, with a wide variety of species and backgrounds and gods could have trouble with Human, a species with no real special playstyle disadvantages.

That said you are dying from D:1 to D:3 an obscene number of times.

I don't understand it either.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Do you try to melee without weapon as VM? That might explain some deaths.

[MainiacJoe]

Do you try to melee without weapon as VM? That might explain some deaths.

I consistently pick up and upgrade floor weapons, and use them at zero-skill when necessary (and often, once I get a sling or shortbow). In my initial VMs, I would get OTR online before training non-magic skills. Later, I would stop at Mephitic, and begin training Fighting and Dodging. In my last ones, the same but I trained a weapon before Fighting and Dodging (to about 6 or so, not min-delay). I realized after a while that as Kiku, I was trying to get both the VM book and the Kiku first gift online, and neglecting my melee offense and defense. So then I did HuNe for a while, since then the Kiku XP was also my starting book XP, and there'd be enough for melee as well. (The couple of Makhs were D:2 altars I couldn't refuse).

[VeryAngryFelid]

I meant D:1 deaths, there are too many of them IMHO.

[mikee]

Train poison and conj and then 1 level of air, get meph castable (by castable I don't mean 1% fail with all spellpower, just castable - maybe 20% or 15% fail). You've now actually spent a rather small amount of xp to get good use out of your starting book. This is amazing efficiency. Now turn all of those off and train only dodging. Pay close attention to what you find in the next few levels and adjust your skills accordingly. Training a weapon skill is also fine if you have a good weapon. You might want something like 5 fighting by the time you enter lair and 10 or 12 by the time you finish lair. I don't know if this really helps you as this is just a bunch of junk about skills but the important takeaway is to use narrow strokes and evaluate benefits properly.

[MainiacJoe]

I meant D:1 deaths, there are too many of them IMHO.

Oh I see. No, only when I've gotten cornered. I pillar dance a lot and it works well. I exclude oozes and jackal packs. Typically these D:1 deaths are bad rolls on Sting and having to run before I've explored enough to get a pillar I can dance around without getting waylaid by other monsters. Memorably, one tie a pack of jackals was in the first room outside the one-exit entry vault, and in another a kobold had what I'm guessing was a randart short sword because not only were its attack draining, but it was also rPois.

[VeryAngryFelid]

You can check monster's weapon in x mode by the way

[MainiacJoe]

(by castable I don't mean 1% fail with all spellpower, just castable - maybe 20% or 15% fail)

I've been targeting 10%.

Now turn all of those off and train only dodging.

Now that's different. I typically go to Fighting first, since it both gives me HP and also helps my zero-skill weapon when I need it. But given the theme of your advice, I'm guessing that early Dodging is the most efficient way to increase one's surviviability?

[MainiacJoe]

You can check monster's weapon in x mode by the way

Yeah it was only after the fact that I realized that the rPois was probably on the weapon.

[Plantissue]

What does the number on the 4th column mean?

I don't really understand how you are dying in D:1 with such regularity to be honest. Sting is a terrible spell, and by using it at lvl 1, you do end up with 0 magic frequently and have to run away, but you are much more experienced than me and I'm sure if I started playing loads of HuVM I can survive past D:3 with good regularity. Are you moving away from the monster after they get poisoned to conserve magic? The only thing I can think of is that you are facing a run of immensely bad luck. Poisonous vapours is actually really good and so is mephitic cloud. At 3/3/3 skill which you will reach around XL5 you basically have 10 and 17% chance to cast them respectively.

[nago]

Now that's different. I typically go to Fighting first, since it both gives me HP and also helps my zero-skill weapon when I need it. But given the theme of your advice, I'm guessing that early Dodging is the most efficient way to increase one's surviviability?

Yup I too always go with fighting first and dodging later (unless being something like Sp or other small races with very good returns on dodging training)

[MainiacJoe]

What does the number on the 4th column mean?

Game score. I don't care about maximizing score, but I do find it useful to quantify how far I got in a particular game.

I don't really understand how you are dying in D:1 with such regularity to be honest. Sting is a terrible spell, and by using it at lvl 1, you do end up with 0 magic frequently and have to run away, but you are much more experienced than me and I'm sure if I started playing loads of HuVM I can survive past D:3 with good regularity. Are you moving away from the monster after they get poisoned to conserve magic? The only thing I can think of is that you are facing a run of immensely bad luck. Poisonous vapours is actually really good and so is mephitic cloud. At 3/3/3 skill which you will reach around XL5 you basically have 10 and 17% chance to cast them respectively.

Yes I kite poisoned monsters with Sting. Now that you mention it, I do tend to use PV as a smite-targeted conjuration instead of as a poisoner to set up kiting. Adders, for instance: two PVs reliably kill them, and if poisoned, then I kite if it's still alive. One PV and then kiting feels (anecdotal evidence) that because of the adder's speed I end up with it getting to melee range more often than I'd like. So two PVs and then kite, or two PVs and then sling bullets or arrows as it approaches depending on my gear. I think I use PV in later floors when I ought to be using MC, but the noise on MC is a concern and so I typically reserve it for big brutes or spellcasters/orc priests.

As I said above, I don't understand my recent troubles either. It could well be that I do use sub-optimal tactics and that I've relied on species-specific advantages.

[MainiacJoe]

Here is a character I played during my lunch break through D:3. I kept copious notes for you of what I was thinking at various points of the game. B: I'm playing offline.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.20.1 (tiles) character file.

MainiacJoe the Stinger (Human Venom Mage)           Turns: 3709, Time: 00:27:44

Health: 41/41      AC:  2    Str: 10    XL:     6   Next: 12%
Magic:  9/9        EV: 12    Int: 16    God:   
Gold:   166        SH:  0    Dex: 13    Spells: 3/9 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .   e - +0 hunting sling
rCold    + . .     Gourm    .   (no shield)
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   a - +0 robe
rPois    .         Spirit   .   (no helmet)
rElec    .         Reflect  .   (no cloak)
rCorr    .         Harm     .   (no gloves)
MR       .....                  (no boots)
Stlth    ++........             (no amulet)
Regen    0.2/turn               s - ring of protection from cold
MPRegen  0.2/turn               (no ring)

@: no status effects
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 3 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 3 of its levels.

You have collected 166 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 d - a trident
 e - a +0 hunting sling (weapon)
 n - an enchanted flail
Missiles
 f - 72 sling bullets (quivered)
 w - 29 bolts
 y - 44 stones
 A - 5 curare-tipped needles
 B - 9 poisoned needles
Armour
 a - a +0 robe (worn)
 p - a buckler
Jewellery
 s - a ring of protection from cold (left hand)
Scrolls
 l - a scroll of immolation
 m - a scroll of magic mapping
 r - a scroll of amnesia
 t - a scroll labeled HIUWKE VAMIUCU
 u - a scroll labeled YGUTZU RYOCSA
Potions
 h - a potion of lignification
 i - an emerald potion
 k - a potion of curing
 o - a grey potion
 q - a fizzy inky potion
 v - 2 coppery potions
Books
 b - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Sting                        Conjuration/Poison            1
    b - Poisonous Vapours            Poison/Air                    2
    c - Mephitic Cloud               Conjuration/Poison/Air        3
    d - Olgreb's Toxic Radiance      Poison                        4
    e - Venom Bolt                   Conjuration/Poison            5
Comestibles
 c - 3 bread rations
 g - 2 meat rations
 j - 3 royal jellies


   Skills:
 - Level 2.2 Dodging
 - Level 2.0 Stealth
 - Level 2.0 Spellcasting
 + Level 3.0 Conjurations
 + Level 3.5 Air Magic
 + Level 3.8 Poison Magic


You have 3 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sting                 Conj/Pois      ##..         4%          1    #......
b - Poisonous Vapours     Pois/Air       ##....       7%          2    ###....
c - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  ##......     14%         3    ###....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (3/15)           

Altars:
Qazlal
Trog

Message History

Enter note: XL:6, chose S again.  Trog vault with an eye of draining, nice XP
f - 69 sling bullets (gained 3)
You see here a rat corpse.
f - 70 sling bullets (gained 1)
f - 72 sling bullets (gained 2)
You see here an antimagic club.
A kobold comes into view.
The kobold moves out of view.
You see here an antimagic club.
Things that are here:
a ring mail; a hand axe
u - a scroll labeled YGUTZU RYOCSA
There is an escape hatch in the floor here.
You now have 166 gold pieces (gained 8).
You see here a mace.
Done exploring.
Okay, then.
There's nothing to open nearby.
Enter note: end D:3, altars of Trog and Qazlal, no thanks
Saving game... please wait.

           ##
          ##.
###########.#
#......[...##
#.#######.##
#.#     ##.##
#.# ######..#
#.# #.....<..
#.# #.####...
#.# #.#  #...
#.# #.#  #..#
#.# #.#  #..#
#@###.####..#
#...........#
#####.#####.)
    #.#   ###
    #.#
   ##.#
   #..#
   #.##
   #.#
   #.#   ####
   #.#   #...
   #.#   #.##


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  An eye of draining (D:3)
  3 adders (D:2)
  4 worms
  2 dart slugs (D:3)
  5 leopard geckos
  4 orcs (D:3)
  2 ball pythons
  5 giant cockroaches
  6 goblins
  5 hobgoblins
  6 jackals
  5 kobolds
  2 quokkas
  7 bats
  3 frilled lizards
  7 rats
67 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | MainiacJoe the Human Venom Mage began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 3/3
    18 | D:1      | sling, whip and club in entry room.  Picked up whip and sling.
    18 | D:1      | three exits from entry.  'o'
    49 | D:1      | picked up sling bullets.  wield it.
    63 | D:1      | sling + bullets/stones will be better than any floor weapon for a while I expect
   103 | D:1      | hobgoblin and bat on othre side of door, in melee range.  2 stings to kill hobgoblen, 1 sting at bat missed.  now pillar dancing the bat
   148 | D:1      | down to half health and missed with both stings.  used sling.
   356 | D:1      | sting poisoned a hobgoblin, kited it and it died
   396 | D:1      | now have 39 bullets
   398 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 19/19 MP: 3/5
   420 | D:1      | I'd forgotten to set skills at geme start.  Now I'm XL:2 and I memorize PV and go 100% air
   423 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Poisonous Vapours
   615 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
   688 | D:1      | now 63 bullets on D:1!
   692 | D:1      | jackal pack and goblin and rat, retreat to corridor
   725 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 24/24 MP: 0/6
   726 | D:1      | lured away just the jackals.  2x PV, sting missed, then pillar dance to kill with sting, no damage.
   726 | D:1      | XL:3, chose S because I'll need melee soon enough for rPois
   730 | D:1      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
   730 | D:1      | set skills to coj/Air
  1110 | D:1      | end of D:1.  Only single scrolls, so no read-ID
  1156 | D:1      | worm in view at D:2 downstair, lure upstairs and kite with slung stones for XP
  1163 | D:1      | did 4 damage on the stairs
  1184 | D:1      | finished with PV when at 1/3 health
  1226 | D:2      | drop whip, take spear.  still using sling as needed
  1610 | D:1      | first close call.  leaopard gecko, 2 miscast PV, stairdance, I was at 2/3 health and I tried one more PV.  poisoned it, so I kited, but it got another hit on me and I ended at 1/3 health
  1774 | D:2      | coj and air to 2, turn off coj because PV is my bread and butter right now
  1774 | D:2      | PV at 12%, MC at 24%
  1950 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 30/30 MP: 7/7
  2439 | D:2      | end D:2.  two sets of 2x scrolls, read-ID
  2442 | D:2      | mapping, and then ID.  Identified a 2x potion (curing) and a single scroll (immolation)
  2519 | D:2      | bad.  Adder asleep next to me as I come downstairs, also a dart slug.  I decide to stairdance it.  PV to start, upstairs, PV again then kite.  it bites me twice, and I PV again and slings to death.  Without the curing potion, I am lethally poisoned
  2647 | D:2      | Ait to 3, now i  turn on all of coj, air, poi since they all have similar cost
  2661 | D:3      | ID'd lignification
  2736 | D:3      | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal.
  2736 | D:3      | Noticed an earth elemental
  2801 | D:3      | trade spear for trident from an orc.  Also an enchanted flail
  2892 | D:3      | picked up a buckler, won't wear it yet
  2950 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 35/35 MP: 8/8
  3077 | D:3      | Noticed a fire elemental
  3077 | D:3      | Noticed a water elemental
  3077 | D:3      | Noticed an air elemental
  3556 | D:3      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  3558 | D:3      | Noticed an eye of draining
  3592 | D:3      | Killed an eye of draining
  3592 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 41/41 MP: 0/9
  3593 | D:3      | XL:6, chose S again.  Trog vault with an eye of draining, nice XP
  3709 | D:3      | end D:3, altars of Trog and Qazlal, no thanks

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5 |
---------------+----------------+-----
Air Magic      |     1  2  3    |  3.5
Conjurations   |        2     3 |  3.0
Dodging        |                |  2.2
Stealth        |                |  2.0
Spellcasting   |                |  2.0
Poison Magic   |                |  3.8

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------++-------
 Fire: Hunting sling     |    20 |    72 ||    92
 Cast: Sting             |    16 |     2 ||    18
       Poisonous Vapours |    22 |    24 ||    46
  Use: Scroll            |       |     5 ||     5
       Potion            |       |     1 ||     1
  Eat: Chunk             |     3 |     7 ||    10
       Royal jelly       |     1 |       ||     1
Armor: Robe              |    16 |     6 ||    22
Dodge: Dodged            |    50 |     8 ||    58



Edit: I see that it's time to start training defenses, I didn't realize Mephitic had gotten to 14%.

[MainiacJoe]

Moved to YAVP with a CIP. I made it to Lair! That ought not be cause for celebration, but alas it is.

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