Piercer as DD on D6?

[Schillernde]

So, i found Piercer on d6, should i drop everything and become a bow dwarf, despite the Shit Ass bow aptitude?

[Siegurt]

A character dump would probably let us know more details and get you better and more accurate advice.

[Schillernde]

I mean, it's not as though i've gotten far enough to warrant it, but here it is nonetheless

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.20-a0-1126-g0f15420 (tiles) character file.

Bawiru the Cudgeler (Deep Dwarf Fighter)            Turns: 3046, Time: 00:11:46

Health: 44/61      AC:  9    Str: 21    XL:     7   Next: 8%
Magic:  6/6        EV:  7    Int:  9    God:    Makhleb [......]
Gold:   253        SH:  9    Dex: 12    Spells: 6/6 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .   a - +0 flail
rCold    . . .     Gourm    .   c - +0 shield
rNeg     + . .     Faith    .   b - +0 scale mail
rPois    .         Spirit   .   (no helmet)
rElec    .         Reflect  .   u - +1 cloak
rCorr    .         Harm     .   (no gloves)
MR       +....                  (no boots)
Stlth    ..........             (no amulet)
Regen    0.0/turn               p - ring of positive energy
MPRegen  0.1/turn               r - ring of wizardry

@: non-regenerating
A: damage resistance, heal wounds, sense surroundings 1, no regeneration
a: Heal Wounds, Renounce Religion


You are on level 6 of the Dungeon.
You worship Makhleb.
Makhleb is noncommittal.
You are full.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 6 of its levels.

You have collected 253 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 a - a +0 flail (weapon)
 x - the +7 longbow "Piercer" {penet, EV-2}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)   
   
   Ammo fired by it will pass through the targets it hits, potentially hitting
   all targets in its path until it reaches maximum range.
   
   It affects your evasion (-2).
Missiles
 t - a throwing net (quivered)
Armour
 b - a +0 scale mail (worn)
 c - a +0 shield (worn)
 u - a +1 cloak (worn)
Jewellery
 m - an uncursed ring of stealth
 p - a ring of positive energy (left hand)
 r - a ring of wizardry (right hand)
Wands
 q - a wand of confusion (?/48) {zapped: 3}
Scrolls
 e - 3 scrolls of teleportation
 g - a scroll of magic mapping
 h - a scroll labeled BIZEGULEYLE
 j - 4 scrolls labeled LEGEDO ARIRE
 o - a scroll labeled RULALU FEEH
 s - a scroll labeled BOAPRO OFOPS
 v - a scroll labeled LEEWUN URA
 w - 3 scrolls of identify
Potions
 d - a potion of might
 k - a potion of curing
 l - an emerald potion
 z - a fizzy cyan potion
Comestibles
 f - 2 bread rations
 i - 2 royal jellies
 n - 3 fruits


   Skills:
 - Level 2.8 Fighting
 + Level 7.4 Maces & Flails
 - Level 3.5 Armour
 - Level 0.2 Dodging
 - Level 3.6 Shields


You have 6 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (6/15)           
Temple: D:4-7       

Altars:
Elyvilon
Makhleb
Okawaru
Wu Jian
The Shining One


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to damage.
You can heal yourself by infusing magical energy.
You passively map a small area around you.
You do not regenerate.


Message History

No target in view!
No target in view!
o - a scroll labeled RULALU FEEH
You open the door.
You are no longer poisoned.
There is an open door here.
An ogre is nearby!
Aiming: Confuse (will waste charges)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - ogre
Aim: an ogre, wielding a giant club (chance to defeat MR: 46%)
Okay, then.
Aiming: Confuse (will waste charges)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - ogre
Aim: an ogre, wielding a giant club (chance to defeat MR: 46%)
The ogre resists with some effort.
Evoking this partially-identified wand wasted a few charges.
Aiming: Confuse (will waste charges)
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - ogre
Aim: an ogre, wielding a giant club (chance to defeat MR: 46%)
Okay, then.

          ˜˜˜˜. ,  , **     #.......#
        ....... ,  ,    , , #.......#
  ,,    .......         ,   #.......#
       ,.......    ..    ,,,+.......#
        ..>....    ..#+######.......#
        ...#+##   ,.................#
    ,       ,    +..................#
                 #...........<......#
, *            . #..................#
        ,      #'#....[.............#
            ,  ........###'##.......#
   ,     ,     ...O....#....#.......#
 ,    ,        ........#....#.......#
    ,         ,.......@#....#.......#
               ........'....#.......#
               ........#....#.......
               ........#....#   ,
               ........##+###,
               #######..  ,     ,
                  >, #..,  ,,
                     #.. , , ,
            ,     ,  #.  ,
                         ,  ,    ,
               ,  ,   ,         ,
                     *             ,
         * *  *    *    ,


You can see an ogre.

Vanquished Creatures
  An ice beast (D:6)
  An ogre (D:4)
  A crimson imp (D:5)
  A hound (D:4)
  Crazy Yiuf (D:3)
  3 jellies
  3 worker ants
  6 adders
  An ooze (D:1)
  3 worms (D:4)
  A dart slug (D:1)
  2 leopard geckos
  7 orcs
  2 giant cockroaches
  5 goblins
  6 hobgoblins
  3 jackals (D:4)
  3 kobolds
  4 quokkas
  5 bats
  3 frilled lizards
  6 rats
68 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Bawiru the Deep Dwarf Fighter began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 20/20 MP: 1/1
    40 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 27/27 MP: 2/2
   490 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 23/33 MP: 3/3
   537 | D:2      | Reached skill level 3 in Maces & Flails
   694 | D:2      | Found an ornate altar of the Wu Jian Council.
   992 | D:3      | Reached skill level 4 in Maces & Flails
   992 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 36/40 MP: 3/3
  1264 | D:3      | Found a runed door.
  1268 | D:3      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  1285 | D:3      | Killed Crazy Yiuf
  1499 | D:3      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  1502 | D:3      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  1505 | D:3      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  1936 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 43/48 MP: 4/4
  1982 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Maces & Flails
  1999 | D:4      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  2028 | D:4      | Became a worshipper of Makhleb the Destroyer
  2186 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
  2192 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
  2192 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Maces & Flails
  2192 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 42/55 MP: 5/5
  2384 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  3014 | D:6      | Noticed an ice beast
  3028 | D:6      | Killed an ice beast
  3028 | D:6      | Reached skill level 7 in Maces & Flails
  3028 | D:6      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 53/61 MP: 6/6

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6 |
---------------+-------------------+-----
Maces & Flails |        4     6  7 |  7.4
Fighting       |                   |  2.8
Armour         |                   |  3.5
Dodging        |                   |  0.2
Shields        |                   |  3.6

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Flail             |   118 |   180 |     6 ||   304
       Unarmed           |       |     4 |       ||     4
 Abil: Heal Wounds       |     1 |     3 |       ||     4
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |     1 ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |     2 |       |       ||     2
       Potion            |       |     1 |       ||     1
  Eat: Bread ration      |     1 |       |       ||     1
       Royal jelly       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Meat ration       |       |     1 |       ||     1
Armor: Scale mail        |    61 |    84 |     2 ||   147
       Skin              |       |     1 |       ||     1
Dodge: Dodged            |    32 |    59 |       ||    91
Block: Shield            |    57 |   102 |     3 ||   162



[Siegurt]

I think I would use piercer eventually as my primary source of damage, but I think given it will take quite a bit of time/XP before you can use it effectively, I'd probably stick with M&F as my primary source of damage for a while and transition to bows slowly and later, using bows in the meantime as a softener before things got into melee range until eventually stuff just starts dying before it gets to you.

In the meantime, smashing things with large blunt objects is a good way to go, It does mean sacrificing your shield, but that isn't a huge loss at this stage.

More concretely, I'd use M&F in melee range, and shoot things before they get into melee range, I'd devote a portion of your XP (say ~25% or so) into bows putting the rest into offense/defense normally, when you get into the teens with bows, it's probably worth it to focus XP up to 20 to get min delay with longbows.

Be aware that you can stop the flight of an arrow by firing with . instead of 'f' (it will stop in the targeted square, instead of travelling until the edge of your LOS. Which will help manage keeping your arrows from going into deep water, and prevent you from having to walk as far to retrieve them in some cases.

[Schillernde]

Gotcha! thanks for the advice!

[duvessa]

piercer at 0 skill is probably better than a +0 flail at 7.5 skill

[Hellmonk]

can confirm w/ some shitty fsims that the good play here is to go for piercer immediately unless you have a sick mace (talking dwhip of elec or similar here). Piercer is a lot better than a +0 flail for damage even w/ 0 skill and obviously is more viable long term. I would not bother skilling maces any higher this game.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

It's a shame that DD aptitude for bows is so poor. I guess overall you're still 'fine' on XP though, with Invo/Evo +3 and Armour/Dodging +1.

Piercer will stay relevant for the entire game. Eventually you'll get to the point where you have another longbow with a damage brand, and ultimately better enchantment level, that will be your main source of damage. The penetration brand will still be great for killing dangerous enemies at the back of packs.

I suppose if you find an actually good mace, or an elec dwhip or something, nothing stops you from weapon swapping once the enemy has reached you. Even with a great melee weapon, you should still shoot enemies until they get to you, of course.

[njvack]

I'd still carry and use some kind of mace (or other decent melee weapon) for popcorn monsters. You might not have enough ammo for every orc in the game, and even if you do, picking up all of the bazillion arrows you'll shoot can be annoying. But I also would not train maces any more.

Also keep in mind that while you're using a longbow with low skill, your attacks will take more than one normal turn, so monsters will sometimes get an "extra" move. This can matter if you're standing within "damage me" range of something dangerous.

[Sphara]

It is also worth noting that this bow has a potential for giving excellent HP-returns with Makhleb.

[Rast]

I would train up Piercer heavily. Not all the way to 20, but to 10 asap and maybe eventually to 14. I would not waste xp on other weapon types until I found something really worthwhile, hopefully a highly enchanted battleaxe.

[njvack]

Why would you ever train a melee weapon on this character?

[MainiacJoe]

Would one run out of arrows potentially if bows was the only weapon?

[njvack]

Just use a mace with the current 7.4 skill, or if you find some other crazy great melee weapon, use it unskilled. Doesn't matter if you do crap damage to nonthreatening monsters. You might not have enough arrows for every monster, but you will have more than enough arrows for every dangerous monster.