Need Advice: Attributes, Skills, Demons & The Abyss

[Deimos]

Possible TL;DR post. Sorry.

I have been playing Crawl for a good 4 months now (and have yet to get my first rune; I always find ways to die on Snake:4), but I still have issues with some things. I know quite a bit about DCSS lingo, so don't hold back and talk to me like I am a newbie

Anywho, let us do this in order of the topic title. First off is Attributes. I am confused about how these work. Strength is (I guess) one of the factors on damage with melee weapons and crossbows. However, how does Strength effect those weapons that are "wielded best by dexterous characters"? For example, will the damage output from a Dagger be the same regardless of str? Are these weapons effected purely by DEX, does STR also have a factor, or is STR the only factor for weapon damage even with these weapons? Also, moving on to STR/DEX vs Int. Int seems, by far, the most useful attribute for just about any char bar those following Trog. Unless one of the other attributes is abysmally low (and therefor fragile to the effects of attribute drains), is there a reason to pump anything but Int on 3rd level-ups? Finally, if I go something like TrBe or MDBe, is it recommended to pump DEX to considerable levels to make sure you hit more often then not? How big of a factor is DEX when considering accuracy?

Next, Skills. One of the reasons why I dislike playing any sort of caster is because the hellish amount of skills that are useful for a caster; Short Blades, Conjuration, Spellcasting, Dodging, Stealth, Fighting, and multiple casting schools are all useful for a caster. Oh, and some Shield to wear a buckler. Anyway, what is the best way to train a char when they have so many damn skills needed to become powerful? I usually just forgo Dodging/Stealth as soon as I start a caster; if I don't, I am left with a char that will take a good long time to become proficient in some very important spells (such as Mephitic Cloud). However, having no Dodging/Stealth is very risky; you can't take any hits and tip-toeing past creatures is very difficult. Eventually I will need to open the door to lots of other skills to fully round of my char. Using Manual Training, what is the best way to go about this? Should I leave on all these schools and (very) slowly become proficient in all of them, or focus on 1 or 2 at a time and deal with the effects of being quite specialized?

Almost done here; next is Demons. In particular, dealing with Demons with a Necromancer. I have a very difficult time playing any Necromancer; they all seem to find Grinder on D:3-D:5. Whenever they do, I just want to throw my hands up and say "I give up". I cant cast Pain, cant use Dispel Undead, cant drain, etc. None of the effects of the starting necro book have any effect whatsoever on Grinder except Raise Skeleton, which is unreliable (Did grinder appear near the start of the lvl? Did I find any useful mobs to raise? Did said mob even drop a skeleton?). The only time I can get past him is if a find a very nice weapon on D:1/D:2, which is highly unlikely. The only real way past him is to run away, which might not even be a option considering he uses Paralyze along with the option of spawning with a Wand.

Finally, The Abyss. To be more specific, being banished into it. For low level chars, it's (nearly) certain death, and the chances are not much higher for chars below lvl 20. I find it to be a very bad game design (in my opinion that is; I'm not here to bash the devs and I certainly enjoy their work on this game very much) to spawn monsters that can cast a spell that will almost always kill you. There has been numerous occasions that I have been banished the very turn I walked into sight of a Unique. It doesn't really matter how successful that char was, how prepared I felt, how easily I could of dealt with that unique, it will just kill me in one turn. The chances of survival for a low level char in the abyss is similar to the chances of finding a Ring of Slaying on D:1, if the result of not finding said ring was the implosion of the entire dungeon if you did not find it within a few hundred turns.

I'm just complaining now, so I'm just going to tie this post up. Thanks a bunch of devoting your time to reading this, and please post ANY tips that might help me. I'm in dire need.

[Happy Corner]

I'll let more experienced players here handle your other questions, but the Abyss is quite survivable if you're prepared right... and know how to handle it. Yes, if your level is still single-digit, you're in trouble, but past that, you have a chance. It rarely kills me anymore, and even those cases are due to my own stupidity and/or just plain awful luck.

The key is to keep moving and NOT try to kill everything you meet - the Abyss is far less tolerant of that kind of mindset than the standard Dungeon. Knowing which monsters to keep out of sight of helps a lot, too. (Greater demons, smoke demons, liches, daevas...) IMO, the best thing you can do for yourself Abyss-wise is have a ring of teleport (or a lot of teleport scrolls/wand charges). That way you have an escape if you DO get cornered. When I find a ring of teleport (and they're not all that rare), I usually keep it on my person at all times, just in case I do get banished to the Abyss.

[dolphin]

In Crawl, "Strength" is what most games call "Constitution". The only reasons to have high Strength are: 1. To meet armour requirements (3x the evasion penalty); 2. To increase your carry capacity; 3. To do more damage with bows or crossbows or something (I haven't really used Hunters, so I don't know much here).

This is really dependent on whether you are trying to hybridize or be a plain-jane mage. But this is KL's area, he'll probably answer it better than I could, so I think I will let him.

Run from Grinder, and later have the satisfaction of using IOOD or equivalent to explode him. Just because a monster is there does NOT mean you have to kill it. Hydras, Ettins, Fire Crabs, Mennas the Menace . . . they don't need to die right now, or ever.

Again, run like the hounds of hell are on your heels, 'cause they are. Run as fast as you can (Flight + Swiftness) or faster if necessary (+Haste). When you enter the Abyss, you are supposed to become Forrest Gump.

[KoboldLord]

Anywho, let us do this in order of the topic title. First off is Attributes. I am confused about how these work.

Strength: Does nothing for casters. If you plan to use heavy armor, you need strength three times greater than the evasion penalty of that armor, or you get some major penalties. Plate mail has a -5 evasion penalty, for instance, so you need 15 strength to use it properly. Strength also affects your carrying capacity, but you'll want to get by with as little as possible.
Dexterity: Small bonus to evasion, if you're going evasion. Not a big deal, but usually better than strength.
Intelligence: Improves spell power and spell success rate, reduces spell hunger. Huge for anybody who plans to cast spell, ever.

All stats also get damaged by certain attacks and effects, so having a moderate amount of each serves as a buffer against running out. If any of the three hits 0, you get some ongoing penalties and eventual death if you don't fix the problem.

If you're playing a caster, you'll usually want to choose int. The only reason you might choose otherwise is fear of stat death or the desire to hybridize into dragon armour later in the game (requires 9 str for regular, ice, or pearl dragon armour, or 6 for swamp dragon armour).

If you're playing a non-caster, you'll probably still usually want to choose int because stat death is bad and there are more sources of int damage than str or dex damage. Plus, you might decide to hybridize eventually. Anyway, if you're not raising int then raise str until you can use your desired endgame armour and then put the rest into dex.

Next, Skills. One of the reasons why I dislike playing any sort of caster is because the hellish amount of skills that are useful for a caster; Short Blades, Conjuration, Spellcasting, Dodging, Stealth, Fighting, and multiple casting schools are all useful for a caster. Oh, and some Shield to wear a buckler. Anyway, what is the best way to train a char when they have so many damn skills needed to become powerful? I usually just forgo Dodging/Stealth as soon as I start a caster; if I don't, I am left with a char that will take a good long time to become proficient in some very important spells (such as Mephitic Cloud). However, having no Dodging/Stealth is very risky; you can't take any hits and tip-toeing past creatures is very difficult. Eventually I will need to open the door to lots of other skills to fully round of my char. Using Manual Training, what is the best way to go about this? Should I leave on all these schools and (very) slowly become proficient in all of them, or focus on 1 or 2 at a time and deal with the effects of being quite specialized?

Your skill build will vary wildly depending on your starting race, starting background, and loot drops that you find in your explorations. Generally speaking, though, a caster will want to rush as fast as possible to getting their staple spells to a usable level of spell success. Everything else can wait as long as necessary. Non-casters will probably want to concentrate on their main weapon skill to get the delay down, and then start branching out. Defenses like fighting, dodging, shields, etc. can be grabbed at bargain prices later, once you are competent in your role.

For instance, ice elementalists want to rush for Throw Icicle. That spell is one of the big attractions of their book, and once they get it they can cruise through the early game. So they turn off everything but spellcasting, conjurations, and ice magic, and ignore absolutely everything else until Throw Icicle works. In fact, depending on species aptitudes they might even turn off spellcasting for a while because conjurations and ice magic will have a bigger effect on spell success, and they can spend time fixing their spellcasting after they've got their chase spell. Once they have Throw Icicle up, they can relax and buy up some of the cheap levels of the various defenses, or pump spellcasting, or pick up charms or something.

Almost done here; next is Demons. In particular, dealing with Demons with a Necromancer. I have a very difficult time playing any Necromancer; they all seem to find Grinder on D:3-D:5.

Just run away. Seriously. Demons are a particular weakness of the necromancer background, and Grinder is a pain in the posterior no matter what your background is. Run for the nearest stairwell, throw some sacrificial skeletons in his path, hit a teleportation scroll if there's no other option, whatever it takes. The moment you see him, drop everything you're doing and get away. If you can't explore part of the level because of him, that's an acceptable loss.

You can't very well run from every challenging opponent, but sometimes you just have to recognize when to throw in the towel, and do so. Here you have an extremely nasty opponent that is specifically immune to your schtick, so if you're going to skip just one guy in your entire journey this guy's probably the one.

Finally, The Abyss. To be more specific, being banished into it. For low level chars, it's (nearly) certain death, and the chances are not much higher for chars below lvl 20. I find it to be a very bad game design (in my opinion that is; I'm not here to bash the devs and I certainly enjoy their work on this game very much) to spawn monsters that can cast a spell that will almost always kill you. There has been numerous occasions that I have been banished the very turn I walked into sight of a Unique. It doesn't really matter how successful that char was, how prepared I felt, how easily I could of dealt with that unique, it will just kill me in one turn. The chances of survival for a low level char in the abyss is similar to the chances of finding a Ring of Slaying on D:1, if the result of not finding said ring was the implosion of the entire dungeon if you did not find it within a few hundred turns.

There aren't that many monsters that can Banish you. If you're still looking for your first Rune, watch out for Erolcha, Louise, and any stray ogre-magi. Stay out of Elf until you can survive an Abyss jaunt. The first three are all vulnerable to status effects, so confuse them with Mephitic Cloud or a wand or whatever and finish them off before they shake it off. It isn't like you'll see more than one at a time. You can also screen yourself with regular ogres, since the enemy ogre-magi can't Banish you through them.

If you do find yourself in the Abyss, try running from everything, all the time. If you're 100% certain you can kill it run away anyway. Most things aren't any faster than you, so you'll get quite a crowd following you but they'll never catch up. Levitation helps you escape over water or lava that is impassable to most of your followers, Swiftness or potions of speed let you leave them in your dust, and while teleportation takes extra time to kick in it will also make then all go away at once and you can start over with some new followers. You are not in the Abyss to look for easy kills or loot, so don't get fooled into going for either.

The Abyss seems intimidating the first few times you go in, but after some practice you'll start to figure out how to work your way through it.

[plantaspoon]

I've been abyssed on D:3 by a distortion dagger wielding kobold. I even survived, but I was an Air Elementalist with levitation and swiftness. Even when I'm vastly underleveled I survive it about 20% of the time just by following the advice of kobold lord. Don't fight, just run. You will find plenty that smites or fireballs or runs faster, but even then run and keep running is your best bet.

[dpeg]

And there is always Lugonu. More attractive for very young banishment receivers (because they don't have to give up a god), but an option for anyone else, too. I have died once in the Abyss after letting a Lugonu altar pass by... decisions.

[TwilightPhoenix]

On characters who are strong enough, I will go a little out of my way to gank a weakling in the Abyss if it's convenient and, more importantly, safe to do so. Sure, stopping to fight for a moment is a bad idea, but letting that Imp blink circles around you while attracting other enemies is potentially a worse one.

Apportation is also very handy in the Abyss. Running from stuff and see a Potion of Speed at your LOS? Apport, drink, and go!

[dpeg]

minmay: Perhaps it is time to look for another game?

The Abyss is a pretty good idea, in my opinion, because of the following reasons: (a) it breaks the pace of the standard game (even of the genre): instead of proceeding methodically and slowly, you're best off with killing as little as possible; (b) it is pretty exciting for any character (as long you're low-level enough); (c) like in Pan or portal vaults, there is no way back to your stash, so you have to make do with your current inventory; (d) it comes with choices of its own (like to Lugonu or not Lugonu, when to use consumables, when to fight, which items are worthwhile to pick up).

It is true that the Abyss loses its sting for certain characters, we're working on that. I am also not convinced that the abyssical rune is a great idea, perhaps it's better to remove it. By the way, the Abyss has been remade for 0.9, it looks much better now.

[galehar]

By the way, the Abyss has been remade for 0.9, it looks much better now.

New abyss with morphing is in trunk (0.10) not in 0.9. Next will be variable speed: faster morphing and more monsters (and/or more dangerous) as you spend more time down there.

[dpeg]

By the way, the Abyss has been remade for 0.9, it looks much better now.

New abyss with morphing is in trunk (0.10) not in 0.9. Next will be variable speed: faster morphing and more monsters (and/or more dangerous) as you spend more time down there.

Oh, sorry for the misinformation.

[Deimos]

One more quick question; I keep hearing of .10 trunk, but the trunk page shows .9 to be the latest. Where can I find .10? Or is it only available for devs for now?

[Grimm]

I keep hearing that the Abyss is survivable but I have no experience of this. Lvl 17 MDFi, doing extremely well, got Abyssed by an ogre mage in the Vaults. I ran and ran and ran, popped tele whenever I could, and still got mobbed and killed.

Tell me what I should have done. Potions, right?

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.9.0 character file.

156396 Grimm the Blocker (level 17, -2/152 (160) HPs)
             Began as a Mountain Dwarf Fighter on Aug 24, 2011.
             Was the Champion of Okawaru.
             Killed from afar by a death drake (12 damage)
             ... with a foul vapour
             
             ... in The Abyss on Aug 25, 2011.
             The game lasted 04:15:38 (57246 turns).

Grimm the Blocker (Mountain Dwarf Fighter)                         Turns: 57246, Time: 04:15:38

HP  -2/152 (160) AC 39     Str 29      XL: 17   Next: 62%
MP  14/15        EV  5     Int 10 (11) God: Okawaru [******]
Gold 1338        SH 37     Dex 13      Spells:  0 memorised, 18 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : +    a - +2 war axe of the Penguin {freeze, rC++ St
Res.Cold  : + + .   Warding    : + .  D - +7 crystal plate mail of Lies {Int+2 Acc+2
Life Prot.: + + +   Conserve   : .    F - +2 dwarf shield {rN+} {god gift}
Res.Acid. : . . .   Res.Corr.  : .    f - +0 crested helmet {Int+3} {god gift}
Res.Poison: +       Clarity    : .    A - +2 cloak {rPois}
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    E - +1 pair of gauntlets
Sust.Abil.: . .     Stasis     : .    (no boots)
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: x    N - amulet of warding
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    R - ring of Xomoturch {Hunger- rF+}
Saprovore : . . .   Ctrl.Flight: .    s - ring of life protection

@: about to teleport, slowed, very slow, quite resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: no striking features
a: Heroism, Finesse, Renounce Religion


You were in the Abyss.
You worshipped Okawaru.
Okawaru was exalted by your worship.
You were near starving.

You visited 6 branches of the dungeon, and saw 37 of its levels.
You visited the Abyss 1 time.
You visited 1 Labyrinth.
You visited 1 bazaar.
You visited 2 portal chambers: sewer, ice cave.

You collected 3535 gold pieces.
You spent 2217 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - the +2,+2 war axe of the Penguin (weapon) {freeze, rC++ Str+3}
   (You found it in a Labyrinth)   
   
   It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra
   injury to most foes and up to double damage against particularly susceptible
   opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures.
   
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It greatly protects you from cold.
 b - a +1,+2 dwarven crossbow
 j - a +5,+3 dwarven broad axe of venom {god gift}
 U - a +1,+1 scimitar of flaming
Missiles
 e - 35 +0 bolts
 w - 15 +4 bolts
 Q - 25 steel +0 bolts
Armour
 c - the +6 plate mail of Preug {god gift, rF+ MR SInv}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 10 of the Dungeon)   
   
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It increases your resistance to enchantments.
   It enhances your eyesight.
 f - a +0 crested helmet of intelligence (worn) {god gift}
 v - a +0 ice dragon hide
 A - a +2 cloak of poison resistance (worn)
 D - the +7 crystal plate mail of Lies (worn) {Int+2 Acc+2 SInv}
   (You acquired it on level 15 of the Dungeon)   
   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It affects your accuracy (+2).
   It enhances your eyesight.
 E - a +1 pair of gauntlets (worn)
 F - a +2 dwarven shield of positive energy (worn) {god gift}
Magical devices
 k - a wand of cold (6)
 r - a wand of disintegration (4)
 t - a wand of draining (0)
 u - a wand of slowing (3)
 G - a wand of polymorph other (4)
Comestibles
 d - 3 oranges
 g - a sausage
 i - 3 chokos
 l - 11 grapes
 o - 2 bread rations
 p - a meat ration
Scrolls
 n - a scroll of recharging
 B - 2 scrolls of remove curse
 C - a scroll of enchant weapon II
 J - a scroll of fog
 K - a scroll of teleportation
 L - a scroll of vulnerability
 P - a scroll of acquirement
Jewellery
 h - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 m - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 q - a +2 ring of strength
 s - a ring of life protection (left hand)
 x - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion
 y - an uncursed ring of levitation
 N - an amulet of warding (around neck)
 O - an uncursed amulet of inaccuracy {unknown}
 R - the ring of Xomoturch (right hand) {Hunger- rF+}
   (You found it on level 2 of the Hive)   
   
   [ring of sustenance]
   
   It protects you from fire.
 V - an uncursed ring of regeneration
Potions
 H - a potion of berserk rage
 I - a potion of cure mutation
 M - a potion of heal wounds
 Y - 6 potions of healing
Books
 z - a book of Cantrips   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Confusing Touch                    Hexes                        1
   Animate Skeleton                   Necromancy                   1
   Summon Small Mammals               Summoning                    1
   Apportation                        Translocation                1


   Skills:
 * Level 19 Fighting
 + Level 3 Long Blades
 - Level 18 Axes
 - Level 6 Crossbows
 + Level 16 Armour
 + Level 2 Dodging
 + Level 1 Stealth
 - Level 3 Stabbing
 + Level 19 Shields
 + Level 8 Traps & Doors
 + Level 1 Spellcasting
 + Level 1 Invocations
 + Level 3 Evocations


You had 18 spell levels left.
You didn't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (19/27)            Temple (1/1) D:6             Orc (4/4) D:7
    Elf (0/5) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:12          Swamp (0/5) Lair:2
 Shoals (0/5) Lair:4        Slime (0/6) Lair:6         Hive (2/2) D:13
  Vault (3/8) D:19       
 Crypt: Vault:2-4   

Altars:
Ashenzari
Elyvilon
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
The Shining One
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
Beogh

Shops:
D:4: [  D:5: (  D:13: [?  Orc:4: *+?(

Portals:
Hell: Lair:8
Trove: D:14 (give 16 potions of healing)

Annotations
D:5 ribbit et al
D:8 invis hor

Message History

You are engulfed in dark miasma.
You feel as though you will be slow longer.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You block the death drake's attack. You block the ufetubus' attack.
The ufetubus hits you but does no damage.
You block the ufetubus' attack.
The ufetubus hits you but does no damage.
The insubstantial wisp hits you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Read which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
As you read the scroll of teleportation, it crumbles to dust.
You feel strangely unstable.
You have a feeling this translocation may take a while to kick in...
You are engulfed in dark miasma.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The death drake breathes miasma at you.
The foul vapour misses you.
The death drake breathes miasma at you.
The foul vapour hits you!
You die...

       . .
    #˜ . §.#.
   .#. §#§§...
  . ..§§§§§.˜..
 #..#..#§#......
 ......#§..˜...˜
 .......§...˜...
........§........
........@˜..#
.......5lv˜.˜....
 :......5x......
 ...˜....˜.#..˜.
 .....˜#v... ..˜
  ...˜˜v˜˜.˜. #
   .....v...˜.
    ˜........
       v..


You could see a death drake, a small abomination, 5 insubstantial wisps, a lemure and an ufetubus.

Vanquished Creatures
  Rupert (D:19)
  A frost giant (D:19)
  A stone giant (Vault:2)
  Jozef (Lair:3)
  A wizard (D:14)
  A vampire knight (D:17)
  A great orb of eyes (shapeshifter) (Vault:2)
  A minotaur (Lab)
  A vault guard (D:14)
  4 dragons
  4 ogre magi
  Erica (D:12)
  A yaktaur captain (Vault:1)
  4 hydras
  2 ice dragons
  A stone giant zombie (Vault:2)
  2 rakshasas (D:17)
  A frost giant zombie (Vault:1)
  6 death yaks
  Nergalle (D:14)
  2 orc high priests
  11 centaur warriors
  3 stone giant skeletons
  2 sun demons
  3 vapours (D:14)
  A catoblepas (D:19)
  9 orc knights
  A skeletal warrior (D:16)
  A flayed ghost (Vault:2)
  12 hill giants
  2 ice statues (Port)
  4 unseen horrors
  A harpy zombie (Vault:1)
  A harpy (Vault:2)
  7 orc sorcerers
  5 giant amoebae
  A spiny worm (D:17)
  11 cyclopes
  2 weapon mimics
  5 griffons
  An ice dragon zombie (Vault:2)
  A sixfirhy (Orc:3)
  An orange demon (Lair:8)
  8 elephants
  4 yaktaurs
  8 spiny frogs
  5 black mambas
  2 large large abominations (Abyss)
  An ettin skeleton (Vault:2)
  8 hellwings (Lair:8)
  A wolf spider (D:18)
  4 rock trolls
  13 slime creatures
  A hill giant skeleton (D:18)
  3 queen bees
  44 ugly things
  Sonja (D:14)
  2 rock troll zombies
  2 trolls (shapeshifter)
  11 trolls
  2 smoke demons
  A two-headed ogre (shapeshifter) (D:17)
  A deep troll zombie (Vault:2)
  6 komodo dragons
  10 two-headed ogres
  22 giant toads
  2 agate snail zombies
  A rock troll skeleton (Vault:2)
  A redback (Vault:3)
  4 air elementals
  5 blink frogs (Lair:1)
  A brown ooze (shapeshifter) (Vault:2)
  A grizzly bear (Lair:8)
  2 brown oozes (Lair:6)
  5 basilisks
  3 sharks (D:18)
  4 wraiths
  A griffon simulacrum (Vault:1)
  3 fire elementals (D:14)
  5 wyverns
  6 war dogs
  6 hippogriffs
  A shadow demon (Abyss)
  51 yaks
  3 hungry ghosts
  Grum (Orc:1)
  3 molten gargoyles (D:14)
  3 clay golems (D:14)
  2 ynoxinuls (Orc:3)
  A blink frog skeleton (D:14)
  A merfolk (shapeshifter) (Vault:1)
  2 vampire mosquitoes (Vault:1)
  4 fire drakes
  5 water elementals (D:14)
  Edmund (D:5)
  A neqoxec (Orc:3)
  A soldier ant (D:19)
  A cyclops zombie (D:16)
  Menkaure (D:5)
  A manticore (Lair:4)
  2 mottled dragons
  An orange crystal statue (D:17)
  A necrophage (D:8)
  28 orc warriors
  4 freezing wraiths
  28 ice beasts
  3 phantoms
  2 red devils (Lair:8)
  2 sky beasts
  2 giant goldfish
  A troll zombie (D:13)
  An elf (shapeshifter) (D:19)
  A brain worm (D:13)
  9 crocodiles
  19 ogres
  Sigmund (D:3)
  Duvessa (D:4)
  25 centaurs
  4 boring beetles
  A boulder beetle zombie (Vault:2)
  9 big kobolds
  11 giant frogs
  4 wargs
  2 giant leeches (Lair:2)
  9 giant slugs
  12 water moccasins
  A soldier ant zombie (D:13)
  14 two-headed ogre zombies (D:13)
  Blork the orc (D:5)
  10 agate snails
  6 earth elementals (D:14)
  A water moccasin skeleton (D:10)
  A basilisk skeleton (D:9)
  3 eyes of draining
  A boulder beetle (Vault:2)
  17 jellyfish
  187 killer bees
  8 wights
  7 electric eels
  3 small abominations (Abyss)
  11 imps
  An ogre zombie (D:13)
  A mottled dragon zombie (D:13)
  31 orc priests
  2 shadows
  Dowan (D:4)
  2 goliath beetles (D:13)
  17 hounds
  2 big kobold skeletons (D:12)
  A mottled dragon skeleton (D:16)
  8 big fish
  9 iguanas
  A hound zombie (D:8)
  5 worker ants
  36 orc wizards
  3 scorpions
  A worker ant zombie (D:13)
  2 orange rats (D:17)
  A statue (D:6)
  5 jellies
  5 porcupines
  10 sheep
  2 spectral orcs (D:14)
  Ijyb (D:3)
  9 boggarts
  3 fire vortices (D:14)
  10 gnolls
  6 giant centipedes
  24 green rats
  A lemure (Abyss)
  A midge (Abyss)
  2 snake zombies
  16 giant mites
  A scorpion zombie (D:18)
  A giant centipede zombie (D:11)
  An iguana skeleton (D:11)
  4 iguana zombies
  26 snakes
  11 worms
  19 ufetubi
  5 grey rats
  A bat skeleton (D:5)
  17 giant geckos
  153 orcs
  10 giant cockroaches
  30 goblins
  16 hobgoblins
  47 kobolds
  5 oozes
  16 quokkas
  11 small snakes
  31 bats
  6 giant newts
  A giant spore (D:14)
  11 illusory rakshasas (D:17)
  20 jackals
  42 killer bee larvae
  A kobold skeleton (D:14)
  A kobold zombie (D:19)
  2 orc skeletons
  An orc zombie (D:5)
  20 rats
  2 ballistomycetes (D:14)
  A bush (Lair:6)
  4 fungi
  17 plants
  A toadstool (Lair:2)
1624 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A wizard (Lair:8)
  2 unseen horrors (D:17)
  13 slime creatures
  An ugly thing (D:17)
  6 yaks
  A water elemental (D:14)
  A small abomination (Lair:1)
  3 killer bees (D:13)
  An orc priest (D:13)
  A hound skeleton (D:13)
  4 hounds
  An orc wizard (Orc:4)
  6 orcs
  2 hobgoblins
  A jackal (D:12)
  A giant newt (D:3)
  A giant spore (D:13)
  An illusory rakshasa (D:17)
  2 rats
  5 fungi
  9 plants
  10 toadstools
73 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 1697 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Grimm, the Mountain Dwarf Fighter, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 19/19 MP: 0/0
   639 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 27/27 MP: 1/1
  1033 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Traps & Doors
  1193 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 26/33 MP: 2/2
  1882 | D:3      | Noticed Sigmund
  1967 | D:4      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 40/40 MP: 2/2
  1983 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
  2007 | D:4      | Found Iduipawi's Antique Armour Shop.
  2015 | D:4      | Bought an embroidered cloak for 24 gold pieces
  2212 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Dodging
  2269 | D:4      | Noticed Duvessa
  2270 | D:4      | Noticed Dowan
  2330 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  2353 | D:5      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 36/46 MP: 3/3
  3043 | D:4      | Defeated Dowan
  3074 | D:4      | Defeated Duvessa
  3074 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Axes
  3074 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 6/53 MP: 4/4
  3653 | D:4      | Got a warped chain mail
  3843 | D:4      | Identified the cursed +0 chain mail of Vetyr (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
  3926 | D:5      | Found a glowing drain.
  3957 | sewer    | Entered the sewers
  4194 | sewer    | Reached skill level 6 in Armour
  4298 | sewer    | Reached XP level 7. HP: 57/59 MP: 4/4
  4477 | sewer    | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  4746 | sewer    | Reached skill level 7 in Axes
  4799 | D:5      | Noticed Prince Ribbit
  4800 | D:5      | Noticed Edmund
  4812 | D:5      | Gained mutation: You are dopey (Int -1).
  4820 | D:5      | Noticed Menkaure
  4830 | D:5      | Defeated Menkaure
  4830 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Stealth
  4830 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 51/68 MP: 5/5
  4997 | D:6      | Paralysed by you for 2 turns
  5275 | D:6      | Reached skill level 8 in Axes
  5299 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5311 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  5339 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Warmaster Okawaru
  5425 | D:6      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  5649 | Temple   | Reached skill level 1 in Spellcasting
  5746 | Temple   | Reached skill level 1 in Stabbing
  5845 | D:6      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  6200 | D:6      | Acquired Okawaru's first power
  6474 | D:5      | Found Shria's Antique Weapon Shoppe.
  6764 | D:5      | Noticed Blork the orc
  6787 | D:5      | Defeated Blork the orc
  6877 | D:5      | Reached skill level 9 in Axes
  6877 | D:5      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 57/73 MP: 8/8
  7232 | D:5      | Lost mutation: You are dopey (Int -1).
  7384 | D:3      | Noticed Ijyb
  7408 | D:3      | Defeated Ijyb
  7693 | D:3      | You fall through a shaft!
  7908 | D:3      | Defeated Sigmund
  8348 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  9205 | D:5      | Gained mutation: Your magical capacity is low (-10% MP).
  9206 | D:5      | Gained mutation: You are dopey (Int -1).
  9236 | D:5      | Defeated Edmund
  9284 | D:7      | Reached skill level 10 in Axes
  9897 | D:8      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  9957 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 49/83 MP: 7/7
  9965 | D:8      | Reached skill level 11 in Axes
 11310 | D:8      | Acquired Okawaru's second power
 11310 | D:8      | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
 11358 | D:8      | Reached skill level 12 in Axes
 11798 | D:8      | Noticed a queen bee
 12327 | D:7      | Defeated a queen bee
 12604 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
 13279 | D:8      | Reached skill level 13 in Axes
 13279 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 13986 | D:9      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 55/92 MP: 8/8
 14772 | D:9      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
 14978 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 15099 | D:10     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 15100 | D:10     | Got a bloodstained plate mail {god gift}
 15138 | D:9      | Identified the +6 plate mail of Preug {god gift} (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 10 of the Dungeon)
 15194 | D:10     | Got a faintly glowing plate mail
 15224 | D:10     | Identified the cursed -8 plate mail of Nihilism (You found it on level 10 of the Dungeon)
 15320 | D:10     | Reached skill level 14 in Axes
 15881 | D:11     | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 15886 | Lab      | Entered a Labyrinth
 16437 | Lab      | Reached skill level 5 in Traps & Doors
 16439 | Lab      | Got a heavily runed granite ring
 16440 | Lab      | Got a fine war axe
 16572 | Lab      | Identified the cursed +2,+2 war axe of the Penguin (You found it in a Labyrinth)
 16572 | Lab      | Identified the ring "Irghoarche" (You found it in a Labyrinth)
 16742 | D:11     | Reached skill level 15 in Axes
 16877 | D:10     | Got a crystal quarterstaff
 16912 | D:10     | Identified the cursed quarterstaff of Peace {venom, rF+ rC+ Int-1} (You found it on level 10 of the Dungeon)
 17498 | D:12     | Noticed Erica
 17521 | D:12     | Defeated Erica
 17557 | D:12     | Reached skill level 1 in Long Blades
 17566 | D:12     | Reached skill level 16 in Axes
 17900 | D:12     | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
 17957 | D:12     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 72/101 MP: 9/9
 18172 | D:12     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 18929 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 19904 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 20121 | Lair:2   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 20216 | Lair:2   | Found a frozen archway.
 20487 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 20519 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 21137 | Lair:2   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 22296 | Lair:3   | Noticed Jozef
 22319 | Lair:3   | Defeated Jozef
 23685 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 23700 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 10 in Shields
 24392 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 84/110 MP: 9/9
 25290 | Lair:5   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 25539 | Lair:6   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 28045 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: You are weak (Str -1).
 28045 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: Your muscles are flexible, but weak (Str -1, Dex +1).
 28045 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: You are dopey (Int -1).
 28046 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: Your magical capacity is low (-10% MP).
 28046 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: Your muscles are flexible, but weak (Str -1, Dex +1).
 28046 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: You are weak (Str -1).
 28158 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 29202 | Lair:8   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 29380 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 93/122 MP: 12/12
 29741 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 15 in Shields
 30330 | Lair:8   | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 30573 | Lair:8   | Found a gateway to Hell.
 31605 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 31605 | Orc:1    | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
 31630 | Orc:1    | Noticed Grum
 31645 | Orc:1    | Defeated Grum
 31887 | Orc:2    | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 33002 | Orc:3    | Noticed a rock troll
 33002 | Orc:3    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 33002 | Orc:3    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 33002 | Orc:3    | Noticed an orc high priest
 33003 | Orc:3    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 33004 | Orc:3    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 33509 | Orc:2    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 33865 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 33948 | Orc:3    | Defeated a rock troll
 33948 | Orc:3    | Reached skill level 15 in Armour
 34116 | Orc:3    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 34128 | Orc:3    | Reached skill level 17 in Axes
 34258 | Orc:2    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 34313 | Orc:3    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 34407 | Orc:3    | Defeated an orc high priest
 34990 | Orc:4    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 35190 | Orc:4    | Found Mnap's Assorted Antiques.
 35190 | Orc:4    | Found Psomp's Magic Scroll Shoppe.
 35190 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 35213 | Orc:4    | Defeated an orc high priest
 35466 | Orc:4    | Found Koqoump's Weapon Shoppe.
 35473 | Orc:4    | Found Smiun's Book Emporium.
 35775 | Orc:4    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 35821 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of magic mapping for 45 gold pieces
 35821 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of enchant weapon II for 71 gold pieces
 35821 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of teleportation for 39 gold pieces
 35821 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of fear for 45 gold pieces
 35821 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of recharging for 71 gold pieces
 35821 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of identify for 26 gold pieces
 35821 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of enchant weapon III for 260 gold pieces
 35821 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of teleportation for 39 gold pieces
 35821 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of recharging for 71 gold pieces
 35823 | Orc:4    | Bought a +2,+2 dwarven broad axe for 320 gold pieces
 35826 | Orc:4    | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 120 gold pieces
 35826 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of teleportation for 120 gold pieces
 35826 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of remove curse for 120 gold pieces
 35826 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of magic mapping for 140 gold pieces
 35826 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of magic mapping for 140 gold pieces
 36668 | Orc:3    | Noticed a rock troll
 36691 | Orc:4    | Defeated a rock troll
 37247 | D:13     | Found a flickering gateway to a bazaar.
 37256 | bazaar   | Entered a bazaar
 37256 | bazaar   | Found Doroll's Food Emporium.
 37256 | bazaar   | Found Yruokuta's Antique Armour Shop.
 37256 | bazaar   | Found Shrial's Jewellery Shop.
 37257 | bazaar   | Found Fomurgh's Assorted Antiques.
 37258 | bazaar   | Found Mimuaw's Distillery.
 37258 | bazaar   | Found Ghoel's Antique Weapon Boutique.
 37338 | bazaar   | Bought an uncursed ring of levitation for 245 gold pieces
 37350 | bazaar   | Bought a scroll labeled TUGASI KLATUAS for 19 gold pieces
 37361 | bazaar   | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 36 gold pieces
 37372 | bazaar   | Bought a scroll of teleportation for 57 gold pieces
 37392 | bazaar   | Bought a slice of pizza for 12 gold pieces
 37392 | bazaar   | Bought a pear for 5 gold pieces
 37392 | bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 28 gold pieces
 37392 | bazaar   | Bought a bread ration for 28 gold pieces
 37392 | bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 28 gold pieces
 37392 | bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 28 gold pieces
 37392 | bazaar   | Bought a meat ration for 28 gold pieces
 37422 | bazaar   | Bought a potion of decay for 24 gold pieces
 37433 | bazaar   | Bought a cursed ring of hunger for 28 gold pieces
 37750 | D:13     | Found a staircase to the Hive.
 38024 | D:13     | Got an ancient leather armour
 38341 | D:13     | Found Qyfurya's Armour Boutique.
 38346 | D:13     | Reached XP level 15. HP: 133/133 MP: 13/13
 38694 | D:13     | Found Jatamaew's Magic Scroll Shop.
 39040 | Hive:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Hive
 39205 | Hive:2   | Entered Level 2 of the Hive
 39428 | Hive:2   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 39429 | Hive:2   | Got a distressingly furry robe {god gift}
 40211 | Hive:2   | Identified the +0 leather armour of the Moon (You found it on level 13 of the Dungeon)
 40558 | Hive:2   | Got a crystal dagger
 41166 | Hive:2   | Got a shimmering marble ring
 41444 | Lair:2   | Identified the dagger of False Accusations {stab, SInv} (You found it on level 2 of the Hive)
 41465 | Lair:2   | Identified the ring of Xomoturch (You found it on level 2 of the Hive)
 41752 | D:14     | Found a portal to a secret trove of treasure.
 41782 | D:14     | Noticed Sonja
 41782 | D:14     | Gained mutation: You occasionally shout uncontrollably.
 41790 | D:14     | Gained mutation: You are weak (Str -1).
 41792 | D:14     | Gained mutation: You are dopey (Int -1).
 41794 | D:14     | Defeated Sonja
 42215 | D:14     | Noticed Nergalle
 42226 | D:14     | Defeated Nergalle
 42226 | D:14     | Reached skill level 18 in Axes
 42273 | D:14     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 42457 | D:14     | Noticed a fire elemental
 42470 | D:14     | Defeated a fire elemental
 42472 | D:14     | Noticed a fire elemental
 42481 | D:14     | Defeated a fire elemental
 42533 | D:14     | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 42814 | D:14     | Noticed a fire elemental
 42821 | D:14     | Defeated a fire elemental
 42860 | D:14     | Noticed an earth elemental
 42860 | D:14     | Noticed an earth elemental
 42860 | D:14     | Noticed an earth elemental
 42861 | D:14     | Noticed an earth elemental
 42868 | D:14     | Defeated an earth elemental
 42872 | D:14     | Defeated an earth elemental
 42883 | D:14     | Defeated an earth elemental
 42889 | D:14     | Defeated an earth elemental
 42893 | D:14     | Noticed an earth elemental
 42895 | D:14     | Noticed an earth elemental
 42900 | D:14     | Defeated an earth elemental
 42906 | D:14     | Defeated an earth elemental
 43102 | D:14     | Noticed a vapour
 43102 | D:14     | Noticed a vapour
 43102 | D:14     | Noticed a vapour
 43112 | D:14     | Defeated a vapour
 43123 | D:14     | Defeated a vapour
 43132 | D:14     | Defeated a vapour
 43391 | D:14     | Noticed an air elemental
 43391 | D:14     | Noticed an air elemental
 43396 | D:14     | Noticed an air elemental
 43405 | D:14     | Defeated an air elemental
 43412 | D:14     | Defeated an air elemental
 43419 | D:14     | Defeated an air elemental
 43496 | D:14     | Got a levitating book
 43499 | D:14     | Got an inconspicuous book
 43506 | D:14     | Identified the Disquisition on the Mutagenic Rocks (You found it on level 14 of the Dungeon)
 43506 | D:14     | Identified the Almanac of Sulphur (You found it on level 14 of the Dungeon)
 43610 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 43990 | D:15     | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 43993 | D:15     | Got a faintly humming crystal plate mail
 44977 | Lair:2   | Identified the +7 crystal plate mail of Lies (You acquired it on level 15 of the Dungeon)
 45316 | D:16     | Reached skill level 1 in Crossbows
 45411 | D:16     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 45862 | D:17     | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 46084 | D:17     | Reached XP level 16. HP: 116/146 MP: 14/14
 46324 | D:17     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 47015 | D:17     | Got a fine dagger
 47294 | Lair:2   | Identified the dagger "Vuwola Zaymi" {speed, Str+3} (You took it off a vampire knight on level 17 of the Dungeon)
 47937 | D:17     | Got a steaming crystal amulet
 48267 | D:18     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 48487 | D:18     | Identified the amulet "Hidyarih" (You found it on level 17 of the Dungeon)
 49251 | D:19     | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
 49270 | D:19     | Noticed Rupert
 49273 | D:19     | Paralysed by Rupert for 4 turns
 49303 | D:19     | Defeated Rupert
 49382 | D:19     | Found a staircase to the Vaults.
 50762 | D:19     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 51543 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: You are weak (Str -1).
 51543 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: You occasionally shout uncontrollably.
 51543 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: You are dopey (Int -1).
 51787 | Vault:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
 51820 | Vault:1  | Noticed an air elemental
 51827 | Vault:1  | Defeated an air elemental
 51860 | Vault:1  | Reached skill level 5 in Crossbows
 52148 | Vault:1  | Reached skill level 19 in Shields
 52309 | Vault:1  | Reached XP level 17. HP: 149/158 MP: 15/15
 53033 | Vault:1  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 53349 | Vault:2  | Noticed a deep elf summoner
 53349 | Vault:2  | Noticed a deep elf conjurer
 53349 | Vault:2  | Noticed a deep elf mage
 56738 | Vault:3  | Noticed Frederick
 56739 | Vault:3  | You are cast into the Abyss!
 56739 | Vault:3  | Cast into the Abyss (ogre mage)
 56739 | Abyss    | Entered The Abyss
 56758 | Abyss    | Noticed a white ugly thing
 56758 | Abyss    | Noticed a white ugly thing
 56758 | Abyss    | Noticed a white ugly thing
 56799 | Abyss    | Noticed a white ugly thing
 56823 | Abyss    | Defeated a white ugly thing
 57067 | Abyss    | Noticed a giant eyeball
 57070 | Abyss    | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
 57072 | Abyss    | Noticed an ice beast
 57201 | Abyss    | Noticed a death drake
 57227 | Abyss    | Noticed a jelly
 57246 | Abyss    | Killed from afar by a death drake



[rjrrt]

Grimm,
You had a scroll of acquirement and no boots. You could have used it on armour and hoped for boots of running.
A long shot, but something that could have made escaping easier.

[Stormfox]

One of my most epic Abyss escapes ever involved a very timely Okawaru gift of boots of running. It was one of those things that gave me fleeting hope that the Crawl gods sometimes really are paying attention. (Which promptly got crushed next game, but that's how it goes.)

[Grimm]

Thing is I had already killed 4 with no troubles. Also, that mage got me the turn, the very turn I walked down the stairs. I had no chance.

Grimm,
You had a scroll of acquirement and no boots. You could have used it on armour and hoped for boots of running.
A long shot, but something that could have made escaping easier.

That's how I got the crystal plate, by reading acq and hoping for boots. The acquirement scroll on my person had just been picked up in the Abyss and I was a little too busy casting tele and reappearing next to the death drake to read it.

[Yet Another Stupid Noob]

That is a tough break and I don't know how I could have gotten out of it. You have my sympathy Grimm.

[KoboldLord]

Death drakes have a functionally irresistible slowing attack. Accordingly, they are one of the worst possible encounters you can draw in the Abyss. If you can't nuke it to death in a turn or two with wands or crossbow or whatever, you should've probably popped another teleport. Fortunately, death drakes aren't very common even in the Abyss.

[Grimm]

I had just read a tele but it hadn't kicked in yet. I should have tried the disint wand.

It's clear that the Abyss has a vendetta against me personally. I will stop playing until the Text Improvement thing is finished.

[absolutego]

melee fighters, rather than just you.
hell, the abyss is like that. last time i got a MuBe there, i got a pack of golden eyes.
do you play MDFi of okawaru exclusively?

[Jeremiah]

The danger of the Abyss can be very variable, and can occasionally be very threatening even to advanced characters.

I had one experience where liches converged from several directions and started summoning executioners. I teleported almost immediately, but by the time it kicked in I was down to less than 10 HP.

But my worst experience was with a GhIE who had 10 runes and had defeated several pan lords, who got killed by a kraken while trying to get to the exit. I thought I could sneak past it, but the tentacles surrounded me and I went from 250 HP to 20 in about 2 turns.

Of course, this death was avoidable (just go away and look for another exit), but it did illustrate how things can quickly get very bad in the Abyss.

[Grimm]

It wouldn't be so bad if exits generated a little more frequently. I've been to the Abyss maybe twenty times but I've only ever seen two exits.

I understand the excitement factor but it could stand being just a little less exciting.

do you play MDFi of okawaru exclusively?

Yes. I am intimately familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the pure melee build. I've killed Mennas without breaking a sweat, but Abyss without Haste? Death sentence.

[Stormfox]

It wouldn't be so bad if exits generated a little more frequently. I've been to the Abyss maybe twenty times but I've only ever seen two exits.

I'll trade you some of my exits for a decent Okawaru gift or two. I've made a minigame of seeing how many exits I generate (in a single run, multiple visits don't count) before I find the rune. My record is seven.

[absolutego]

the abyss is crawl's way of telling grimm he should convert to lugonu!
seriously, i admire perseverance, but to only play okawaru one must've achieved nirvana.

[Grimm]

I've had some pretty killer gifts from Okes. The right axe at the right time. I'll contact you next time I'm in the Abyss.

I only play MDFi of Oke because I want a very simple game that I understand well. Real life is complex enough. Though I probably will try the Lugonu trick next time I get Abyssed - assuming I even see an altar.

[Sojiro]

There has been numerous occasions that I have been banished the very turn I walked into sight of a Unique.

Thing is I had already killed 4 with no troubles. Also, that mage got me the turn, the very turn I walked down the stairs. I had no chance.

I think that this is a serious problem.

Getting abyssed because you did something foolish like try to melee an Ogre Mage or Psyche? That's fine. But getting instant "you lose lol, no chance to defend" really isn't.
Monsters shouldn't be allowed to cast banishment as their very first action upon seeing the player.

[Zelkelion]

This topic is kind of... really old. The previous posts may not be applicable any more, and the opinions of the posters may have changed.

[XuaXua]

I also consider the Abyss to be bad design but not at all because it's too dangerous. Rather, it kills the nonlinearity of the game (if you get banished you have to do Abyss before you can do anything else), which is both very annoying and very boring.

You don't HAVE to do Abyss. In trunk I've found the exit within 300 turns and figured I'd come back for the rune.

[cerebovssquire]

Yeah, great, and sometimes you'll wander around for 5000 turns slowly beginning to hate the game because it got boring after 10 weak monsters and walking around 2 lava pools that like to block your way annoyingly. That doesn't contribute to gameplay quality at all and "flavour", well, seriously, I'm not playing this game because it has a great fantasy world because it doesn't but because I enjoy most parts of the game.

The fact that it forces low-level characters to a god choice or is an elongated death sentence if you don't get really lucky on low-level chars also sucks.

"doing Abyss" refers to escaping in this context, not getting the rune...