The Tavern

VeryAngryFelid wrote:It looks like I have too little XP with Wn, the background looks OP often (7 first games of current active streak by Berder):
set off with: a wand of flame (15/48), a +0 quarterstaff, a potion of curing, a +0 robe, a +0 dagger, a bread ration
+2 scale mail, a +0 hand axe, the Disquisition on Summoning, a +0 dagger, a bread ration
a +2 scale mail, a +0 hand axe, the Catalogue of Companions, a bread ration
+2 mace, a scroll of teleportation, a potion of curing, a +0 robe, a bread ration
a book of Callings, a potion of curing, a +0 robe, a +0 club, a bread ration
+2 mace, a potion of lignification, a potion of curing, a +0 robe, a +0 dagger, a bread ration
+2 dagger, a potion of haste, a +0 mace, a scroll of teleportation, a +0 robe, a bread ration

So I had started a Kobold Wanderer. No reason, just random race. Got +0 dagger with +0 robe, with a book of air, with 2 levels in spellcasting, 1 in Air, Throwing, Earth, Poisons, Evocations and 3 in Fire. Got 2 spell books with sandblast and stone arrow and beastly appendage and ignite poison. I have no idea why there is 1 level of evocations. Is there anything particularily useful about this I wonder?

Started NaWn game, I definitely underestimated the background before except I have no idea why there is 1 skill level in fire.

Code:: - Level 3.0 Fighting + Level 3.0 Stealth - Level 2.0 Spellcasting Level 1.0 Fire Magic Level 2.0 Earth Magic Hand Weapons e - a +0 club (weapon) f - a +0 dagger Armour d - a +0 robe (worn) Scrolls t - a scroll of teleportation {!r} Books a - a book of Geomancy Spells Type Level a - Sandblast Earth 1 b - Passwall Transmutation/Earth 2 c - Stone Arrow Conjuration/Earth 3 d - Petrify Transmutation/Earth 4 e - Lee's Rapid Deconstruction Earth 5 b - Satzun's Papyrus of Curses Spells Type Level a - Corona Hexes 1 b - Confuse Hexes 3 Comestibles g - a bread ration

Edit. Power of 4.4 levels of stealth: sleeping Natasha (I was in robe), Ijyb (I was in ring mail), Price Rabbit (ring mail again). Sigmund noticed me from 3rd attempt.

Edit2. AC 33 (37 with heroism) on Lair 2 is not even fun

I agree with NaWn being worse than any other Wn. I have played melee deep elves and they really are not that bad.

So here are conclusions from my only game as NaWn:
1) Early stealth is very useful as long as you stay in robe/ring mail, really recommend.
2) Oka makes game boring in Lair when you are lucky to find +9 plate armour, early pack of Death Yaks does not stand a chance vs Heroism/Finesse even with bad weapon (I used +4 scimitar of flaming not even at min delay despite Heroism)
3) Oka again proved great for Na, it gifted me so many bardings
4) New mutation system confirmed again to be bad:

Code:: 44922 | Elf:2 | Lost mutation: You are occasionally teleported next to monsters. [potion of mutation] 44922 | Elf:2 | Gained mutation: You possess an exceptional clarity of mind. [potion of mutation] 44922 | Elf:2 | Gained mutation: You are dopey. (Int -2) [potion of mutation] 44922 | Elf:2 | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in slimy green scales. (AC +2) [potion of mutation]

Of course later (Vaults:5) I found necklace of Bloodlust {*Rage +Rage MR++ Int-3 Slay+6 *Curse} and happily used in Zot and during orb run with that Clarity.
5) +9 vampiric war axe is still good enough to win.
6) Orbs of fire must give more mutations and more nasty. I spent many turns in LoS of them and all I got was:

Code:: 57330 | Zot:1 | Gained mutation: Your muscles are strong. (Str +2) [an orb of fire] 62050 | Zot:5 | Gained mutation: You occasionally shout uncontrollably at your foes. [an orb of fire]

https://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/S ... 052053.txt

You are failing to convince me that NaWn is in the worst teir of characters when you play one game and get a easy win in a thread whose original post is about two players streaking them to absurd lengths.

Edit: Its possible that Wn is simply a strong background and Na plays around Wn's strengths. Garbage starts are the exception rather than the norm. Na makes very good use of early points in stealth and fighting which are both common in wanderer starts. They feel fine starting mage or melee. You frequently get a fight-winning consumable. Sometimes there is significantly more XP in a wanderer (i've seen an 8 fighting start before)

+5 stealth aptitude, poison spit, high hp and super-careful gameplay of a highly skilled player. To me it is painfully obvious that these four contribute the most in the dynast/berder streaks.

NaWn probably isn't the worst wanderer even though I think I should not even try rate wanderers. Anyway, it still has poison spit and high early stealth no matter how crappy the start is. My merfolk wn started with necro book with 11 INT, 4 points of transmutations with nothing to use it, +0 dagger with no weapon skill and one lousy lignification potion. On top of it, everything on level 1 was cursed and RC scrolls were nowhere (my fault trying on un id'd stuff but desperation started to grow at turn 1)

. It was so hilariously bad that I was asked in chat why don't I just suicide and start another.

Yes, wn can be top tier background. Not Be of course, but 2nd place easily. Starting with scroll of teleportation, dagger and 3 fighting helps a lot. If I wasn't going for pure melee, confuse would be great too.

My reply was for edgefigaro and not Sphara obviously. It looks like wn can be second worst background easily too

I think Dynast is just good.

Poison spitting is a nice trick, but it's important to note that Nagas also get rPois (relevant when there are so many deaths to adders), +stealth, +3 HP aptitude, and can use shields easily. If you haven't looked at the morgues, Dynast never trains Dodging, puts any points into dexterity, and uses axes with shields almost every time.

He's a 9 to 5, lunch pail crawl player.

Berder's streak is over too (24 games), lost Dexterity to Quazit, got paralyzed, later teleported in view of a Ce.

Cheers to minor demons!

So, what's up next, BaMo streak? Stealth won't be nearly as attractive.

We need more zealot backgrounds. Sp of chei from turn 1, na of qazlal from turn 1, fe of tso etc.

I keep getting sucky WN. Why would I get 2 levels of Spellcastingand Transmutation with 1 level of Air and no spell books? Ok, so I get a +2 shortbow and a shield I can't use it with so who cares, but still. And 1 lvl of bow, throwing and shields. These skills combinations are just so pointless.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:We need more zealot backgrounds. Sp of chei from turn 1, na of qazlal from turn 1, fe of tso etc.

Snail Knight.

What spells would snail knight begin with I wonder.

Snail Knight should not start with spells, Chei worshipers cannot rely on spells, at least not on D:1. A starting weapon is a must.
If you insist on spells, Apportation, Blink, Slow, Portal Projectile, Passage of Golubria look good IMHO.
The best background for turn speedruns

I'm making a joke about a spell chei turncount speedrunners would want to have guaranteed at game start more than any other spell. Since being able to start with chei is a thing primarily of interest to turncount players.

Plantissue wrote:I get a +2 shortbow and 1 lvl of bow,

Assuming that came with arrows, it's an amazing start. You can kill anything on D:1-2 while training whatever you want. Which could mean more bows, if you have decent arrow finds.

gammafunk wrote:I'm making a joke about a spell chei turncount speedrunners would want to have guaranteed at game start more than any other spell. Since being able to start with chei is a thing primarily of interest to turncount players.

So, it's gotta be Gell's Gravitas or Yara's Violent Unravelling, right?

Plantissue wrote:I keep getting sucky WN. Why would I get 2 levels of Spellcastingand Transmutation with 1 level of Air and no spell books? Ok, so I get a +2 shortbow and a shield I can't use it with so who cares, but still. And 1 lvl of bow, throwing and shields. These skills combinations are just so pointless.

It's almost like Wanderers are not designed to be the best possible start in 100% of cases! It is probably a bug.

Note: A + 2 shortbow is a GREAT wanderer start, as long as you have arrows. Like, top 20%.

I've been running mummy wanderers and taking either Qazal or Ru or Jyva, whichever I find first.

I'm not sure I've ever hit a start stronger than a merfolk with a lignification potion. That sounds awesome! Wow.

Mummies are nowhere near as bad as Nagas in the early game - all those resistances make up for not being able to use potions, which are unidentified early game anyway - and I'm certainly not a good player, but.... it's still not a great combo. But even I can hit lair about 60% of the time. The starting kit usually gives me something I can work with, even with no potions and mummy's awful aptitudes.

Nagas are probably better in the last half of the game, though.

I haven't WON yet - I had 3 pan lords in a row, floor after floor after floor on the orb run and the last one firestormed me (REALLY bad for mummy without a hand, which means only one ring) and then orb of destructioned me. Still, if I can get a mummy wanderer who is waiting for a sub-optimal God, I can see how good players can streak Nagas.

gammafunk wrote:I'm making a joke about a spell chei turncount speedrunners would want to have guaranteed at game start more than any other spell. Since being able to start with chei is a thing primarily of interest to turncount players.

Are you saying statue form? Because I want statue form. Also, regeneration. Hell, give me those two and I'll take a conduct run where those are the only two spells I ever cast

Edit: Tried out a NaWn...let's just say the start was very, very easy:

0 | D:1 | Tasonir the Naga Wanderer began the quest for the Orb.
0 | D:1 | Tasonir set off with: 4 curare-tipped needles, a +2 blowgun, 2 potions of curing, a +0 robe, a bread ration

Edit 2: Still managed to die on D:8 while landing a few bad teleports in a row. Probably would have helped if I remembered I still had my free Gozag potion petition, but I forgot it entirely. Ah well. The early game was still pretty easy, but later on it does get a bit harder, although my death was clearly my own fault.

I had a great run with the +2 shortbow till I got turned into a hog and got killed by summoned harpies in Lair 4. Still, it is pretty wierd to just have lots of skills and equipment you cannot use, even if it is supposed to be random.

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