The Tavern

Currently 2 players are streaking NaWn.
In most of his games (I checked 6) one of the players (26 games streak in progress) trains no weapon until XL 8 and nothing but stealth until XL 5.
Joins Gozag and never uses Bribe, first potion is requested at XL 15+, always has Axes 27 while using 1h axe and a large shield. Is Na too easy? Is crawl too easy?

Code:: 260 1,836,862 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 60,347 03:56:52 Gozag 3 2017-06-24 19:54:18 0.21-a0 261 1,859,218 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 59,892 03:58:36 Gozag 3 2017-06-25 02:23:16 0.21-a0 262 1,971,491 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 53,455 03:29:28 Gozag 3 2017-06-26 14:51:51 0.21-a0 263 1,958,804 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 56,915 03:18:50 Gozag 3 2017-06-26 20:45:54 0.21-a0 264 1,847,024 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 63,487 03:34:01 Gozag 3 2017-06-27 15:00:38 0.21-a0 265 1,915,959 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 57,140 03:17:41 Gozag 3 2017-06-27 19:34:17 0.21-a0 266 1,885,867 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 60,676 03:29:49 Gozag 3 2017-06-28 12:04:19 0.21-a0 267 1,909,349 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 55,948 03:14:22 Gozag 3 2017-06-28 22:22:45 0.21-a0 268 1,964,383 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 53,324 03:07:35 Gozag 3 2017-06-29 01:35:33 0.21-a0 269 1,922,774 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 55,822 03:11:20 Gozag 3 2017-06-29 17:41:50 0.21-a0 270 1,871,916 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 58,128 03:52:42 Gozag 3 2017-06-30 00:01:34 0.21-a0 271 1,882,344 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 64,183 04:05:58 Gozag 3 2017-06-30 20:19:54 0.21-a0 272 2,725,660 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 4 runes! 55,637 03:44:04 Gozag 4 2017-07-01 14:06:36 0.21-a0 273 1,964,150 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 54,256 03:43:34 Gozag 3 2017-07-01 23:11:19 0.21-a0 274 1,940,262 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 56,516 03:24:20 Gozag 3 2017-07-02 15:31:10 0.21-a0 275 1,891,927 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 57,558 03:29:18 Gozag 3 2017-07-03 14:53:22 0.21-a0 276 1,851,469 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 62,157 03:02:44 Gozag 3 2017-07-03 19:18:11 0.21-a0 277 1,906,378 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 59,919 03:26:32 Gozag 3 2017-07-04 14:58:23 0.21-a0 278 1,908,293 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 57,770 02:36:12 Gozag 3 2017-07-04 20:10:38 0.21-a0 279 1,929,311 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 55,739 02:36:09 Gozag 3 2017-07-05 00:46:15 0.21-a0 280 1,905,787 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 58,414 02:53:59 Gozag 3 2017-07-05 18:21:21 0.21-a0 281 1,751,560 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 68,964 03:26:06 Gozag 3 2017-07-06 00:19:08 0.21-a0 282 1,718,826 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 67,261 03:36:55 Gozag 3 2017-07-06 19:00:38 0.21-a0 283 1,937,050 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 55,988 03:02:12 Gozag 3 2017-07-09 13:44:18 0.21-a0 284 1,902,869 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 57,858 03:07:37 Gozag 3 2017-07-10 18:27:37 0.21-a0 285 1,887,740 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 59,158 03:14:13 Gozag 3 2017-07-11 16:40:10 0.21-a0 286 2,682,607 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 4 runes! 57,809 03:07:34 Gozag 4 2017-07-12 17:35:42 0.21-a0 287 2,009,358 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 54,569 02:54:29 Gozag 3 2017-07-12 22:44:34 0.21-a0 288 2,598,493 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 4 runes! 60,616 03:17:37 Gozag 4 2017-07-13 02:10:04 0.21-a0 289 1,920,742 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 56,963 03:34:23 Gozag 3 2017-07-13 18:38:02 0.21-a0 290 1,961,961 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 55,957 03:04:45 Gozag 3 2017-07-14 03:36:51 0.21-a0 291 1,765,417 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 67,435 03:56:52 Gozag 3 2017-07-14 19:00:40 0.21-a0 292 1,829,528 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 64,531 03:45:08 Gozag 3 2017-07-15 02:31:04 0.21-a0 293 1,968,722 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 53,654 03:11:29 Gozag 3 2017-07-15 17:53:51 0.21-a0 294 1,885,747 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 58,409 03:22:36 Gozag 3 2017-07-16 13:14:25 0.21-a0 295 2,060,476 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 51,900 03:22:30 Gozag 3 2017-07-17 12:43:07 0.21-a0 296 1,891,325 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 59,700 03:39:11 Gozag 3 2017-07-17 19:53:37 0.21-a0 297 1,857,397 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 60,121 03:30:13 Gozag 3 2017-07-18 19:42:42 0.21-a0 298 1,897,152 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 61,966 03:43:17 Gozag 3 2017-07-19 17:39:04 0.21-a0 299 1,866,310 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 61,227 03:48:54 Gozag 3 2017-07-20 12:58:07 0.21-a0 300 1,777,501 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 71,902 04:28:03 Gozag 3 2017-07-21 00:03:58 0.21-a0 301 2,500,400 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 4 runes! 66,907 03:32:57 Gozag 4 2017-07-21 03:43:35 0.21-a0 302 1,919,299 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 55,675 03:37:45 Gozag 3 2017-07-21 20:55:59 0.21-a0 303 1,944,157 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 54,173 03:32:14 Gozag 3 2017-07-22 18:44:59 0.21-a0 304 1,848,888 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 62,094 03:38:20 Gozag 3 2017-07-23 13:58:16 0.21-a0 305 1,812,807 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 60,381 03:28:20 Gozag 3 2017-07-24 14:23:06 0.21-a0 306 2,534,977 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 4 runes! 63,995 03:57:58 Gozag 4 2017-07-25 13:45:17 0.21-a0 307 1,741,926 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 68,344 04:18:59 Gozag 3 2017-07-25 22:55:43 0.21-a0 308 1,856,115 NaWn Axe Maniac escaped with the Orb and 3 runes! 61,290 03:58:55 Gozag 3 2017-07-26 21:43:18 0.21-a0

I thought Na was supposed to have a very difficult start. Who is this amazing streaker?

Dynast has a long streak, Berder a shorter one.

What's amusing is that Wn is probably not even the best background for that particular strategy.

Edit: Spit Poison is very strong on D:1-3.

Oh no, turns out minmay has been lying to us all this time, the cunning bastard!

Really though, if someone is, how to put it, enthusiastic enough to play the same combo over and over and over again quite literally day after day, then let them have that streak. I'd splat out of disgust at most during the third iteration, so it's quite impressive.

Wanderer is also a good start half of the time, though sometimes it's just abysmally bad and naga's poison spit helps with that a lot, I imagine. Also large shields and shields in general are really underestimated around here.

Don't forget it's Na, who needs just 15 levels in shields for large shield and has a penalty to EV due to size (and extra penalty for barding!) so it cannot rely on EV instead.
There are 3 other similar species: Tr, Og and Ce. As far as I know shield is recommended for Tr by most top players, it is not recommended for old Og because of GSC and it is not recommended for Ce because of bows. I don't know about new Og, probably I need to play it first before giving opinions

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Is crawl too easy?

Sure, for some players. That's why they use conducts or other self-imposed challenges. There's nothing special about Naga in this regard. If they had streaked MiBe 15 or 25 times, would you have thought twice about it?

Og do benefit a fair bit from large 2-handed maces, so it's probably more marginal. That said, Og can easily win with morning/evening stars.

bel wrote:Sure, for some players. That's why they use conducts or other self-imposed challenges. There's nothing special about Naga in this regard. If they had streaked MiBe 15 or 25 times, would you have thought twice about it?

What do you do when you meet an early Ogre or Sigmund? You run away and use another pair of stairs so basically you need bad luck to die. That's assuming you use autoexplore. Without autoexplore you almost always need bad luck AND bad decisions to die.
I cannot agree there is nothing special about Naga here. Even with manual explore and high stealth you still can die without your fault. Also Wn start means you can start with +0 club and useless spells (one of the starts I checked had exactly that). That's why I am really impressed by the streaks and I suspect our opinion about hard start of Naga can be wrong, it just takes different tactics (spit poison abuse) and strategy (early stealth training) than for other species for consistent early game survival.

Is Na too easy? Is crawl too easy?

As usual, one can't really draw any inferences about this question from looking at individual players, especially individuals who are clearly already outliers in the skill distribution. This gets constantly forgotten on tavern, where a lot of regular posters are definitely outliers in this respect. (I don't mean to say at all that it isn't interesting to look at this player or their games -- it is, but I'm not going to leap to anything being broken from this being possible.)

Early game stealth is one of those underestimated things. Being able to pick your fights, by not waking up dangerous enemies, like Sigmund, is really very powerful.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
bel wrote:Sure, for some players. That's why they use conducts or other self-imposed challenges. There's nothing special about Naga in this regard. If they had streaked MiBe 15 or 25 times, would you have thought twice about it?

What do you do when you meet an early Ogre or Sigmund? You run away and use another pair of stairs so basically you need bad luck to die. That's assuming you use autoexplore. Without autoexplore you almost always need bad luck AND bad decisions to die.
I cannot agree there is nothing special about Naga here. Even with manual explore and high stealth you still can die without your fault. Also Wn start means you can start with +0 club and useless spells (one of the starts I checked had exactly that). That's why I am really impressed by the streaks and I suspect our opinion about hard start of Naga can be wrong, it just takes different tactics (spit poison abuse) and strategy (early stealth training) than for other species for consistent early game survival.

I knew that I should train a bit of stealth and use spit poison on Nagas before I ever heard of this streak. It doesn't change anything in my mind.

I have said elsewhere that I have never much problems with Nagas in the early game (or the later game, for that matter). 20% HP, rPois, Spit Poison and SInv are all pretty good. Though they are still a bit weak (compared to many other races) in the early game.

bel wrote:Though they are still a bit weak (compared to many other races) in the early game.

Could you please list races which are weaker as Wn than NaWn in the early game?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
bel wrote:Though they are still a bit weak (compared to many other races) in the early game.

Could you please list races which are weaker as Wn than NaWn in the early game?

OpWn immediately comes to mind.

Wanderers are almost always melee starts (if you get a book start, it's quite likely to be a bad randart that you don't want to rely on or didn't roll skills to use it with). Because of this I'd consider DEWn worse as well, then I'd also have to consider Ba, Mu and -HP non-fast species (VS, Ko etc.), but those are debatable.

NaWn is a fairly bad combo. Nevertheless, it's no surprise that someone good who plays the combo carefully to streak can get long streaks. What's surprising is a willingness to play that many games like that.

unban dynast

I don't think Na is that bad, and I don't think you have to play in an incredibly degenerate manner to play them well. Poison spit gives you the ability to kill everything on D1 and D2 to stabilize whatever odd Wn start you get, sort of like troll claws or minotaur horns wrecking d1.

Long streaks in crawl are still really impressive.

At least stealth and regeneration is extremely underrated by tavern ideologues.

Avoiding repeated combat with many monsters or enabling dragged combat is precious and vital in this game.

Regeneration is quite bad at low spell power. At decent spell power you are better casting Animate Dead in long fights, you still don't need Regen. If you don't have Animate Dead, training spell power for regeneration is a mistake. Notice that I don't even compare heavy armour to light armour here, also I am not talking about characters with Bolt of Draining where Regeneration is just a thing you almost never cast because you typically have full HP and low MP after fights.

I suspect that papilio was referring to health regeneration, not the regeneration spell.

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I suspect that papilio was referring to health regeneration, not the regeneration spell.

I agree then. That's why Na seems very different from every other species (even Ba) to me.

Yes, the most difficult thing abotu Na is that you are often committed to fights in a way that other species are not. Although with enough stealth, doors and corners, it can be possible to shake off enemies and split packs.

And manual exploration. Even Fo does not need manual exploration that much IMHO

I think anyone who wants to streak, without playing a strong Be, DD, Sp or Ce, pretty much has to explore several early floors manually.

(And of course some later floors. One doesn't generally want to auto-explore into rune/branch end vaults, in my view. Although good use of exceptions can take care of that.)

Well, I almost always autoexplore, even when streaking. Exceptions usually are:
1) anything of Chei unless I feel OP
2) Vaults as Fo unless I feel OP
3) all rune floors (even if I feel OP)
4) Fe (it needs a pillar for dancing).
5) Area around stairs on first floor of a branch

Crypt 3/Elf 3/Orc 2/Lair 6/D:15/U:5 are still autoexplored unless I see it is Lair 6 ending with lots of water in the middle and alike.

The longest NaWn streak by Dynast is over due to Grinder.
I learned a new thing from the game: getting Clarity mutation and losing it in the same turn does not cure confusion. Not sure if losing it is even relevant, maybe getting the mutation does not cure confusion.

Code:: 1930 | D:3 | Noticed Ijyb 1930 | D:3 | Noticed Grinder 1930 | D:3 | Paralysed by Grinder for 3 turns

Crawl in its beauty

I'd be interested to see the replay, because grinder or not, that's a terrible situation to be in. 2 Orc Priests vor a Na with 39 HP is already concerning. Where's Gozag when you need some help, eh?

Does potion petition work while confused?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Does potion petition work while confused?

Nope (source : found out the hard way by fighting tarantellas as a gozag mummy)

No ability works while confused. You can't even open the a menu, I think.

Take that, mummies! >=D

(For the future reader: the above statement is a lie!)

Some Ru's abilities do work while confused and it is even listed in their description as far as I remember.

Is Gozag the god of choice here for distraction stabs?

Shtopit wrote:No ability works while confused. You can't even open the a menu, I think.

Some Ely abilities work while confused.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
bel wrote:Though they are still a bit weak (compared to many other races) in the early game.

Could you please list races which are weaker as Wn than NaWn in the early game?

There. I listed them for you. Your welcome.

For those still watching the NaWn craze, Berder has a live streak of 19 NaWn's still. Personally, I find these NaWn streaks more impressive than the random and fake-random streaks people often point to. NaWn is significantly worse than a random combo most of the time.

DEWn and MuWn have worse starts than NaWn.

DE can get hosed by a large number of starting kits, and early useful spellbooks are much less common than early useful weapons.
Mu are just bad.

DE/Mu/Op can choose fights unlike Na, they cannot die to a single monster on D1. So if it's not clear, I believe NaWn is the worst combo in the game (on average of course, you still can get an easy game with a scroll of teleportation in inventory and +2 weapon in hand).

Poison spit is stronger than the ability to choose fights on D1 with exceptionally weak species.

edgefigaro wrote:Poison spit is stronger than the ability to choose fights on D1 with exceptionally weak species.

I disagree. It's not only about choosing fights, it's also about choosing when to die. If I am a DE/Mu/Op and I am unlucky in my fight with a goblin, I just move manually about 20+ tiles and suddenly I am at full HP/MP again while a Na would die in that situation.

Poison Spit is similarly powerful as than the ability to run away on D1. (edited)

Really. The ability shreds D1. Its really strong. Its not "i have a good character" strong. But its certainly better than lol my character is a bad wanderer.

There is never a bad troll wanderer on d1 because you are a troll. There is never a -really- bad Naga wanderer because you are a naga, and poison spit is always good. You spawn with a stable character at level 1.

Poison spit doesn't scale well, and quickly you begin to encounter immune threats and larger groups of monsters. But in D1, specifically on D1, a blank naga character is better than a blank Mummy and a blank deep elf.

Poison Spit is not nearly as OP. It misses often and you cannot spam it unlike running away.

Poison spit is better than a garbage deep elf that can run away. This character is laughably bad in a way that NaWn is not laughably bad.

100 NaWn will be better than 100 DEWn.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:DE/Mu/Op can choose fights unlike Na, they cannot die to a single monster on D1. So if it's not clear, I believe NaWn is the worst combo in the game (on average of course, you still can get an easy game with a scroll of teleportation in inventory and +2 weapon in hand).

I think CK is on average quite a lot worse than Wn. I'm also not totally convinced that Na is the weakest race. Largely because poison spit is strong and even if fights go badly, can usually be used twice. But of course slow 2 is crippling, and Na is one of the weakest species. Waking up an ooze can be lethal. I just don't think it happens often enough to make Na the worst race outright.

A bad DEWn start can leave you with a useless spell, useless book (immediately that is) and useless skills. It is possible to start with no weapon skill, no fighting, no defences, no stealth. You could get butterflies without summoning skill, book of battle and a +2 club. It's not gonna be straightforward to kill a hobgoblin.

That said, Mo is also a pretty poor start, similar to the worst Wn starts. At least you get to choose a weapon I guess.

edgefigaro wrote:Poison spit is better than a garbage deep elf that can run away. This character is laughably bad in a way that NaWn is not laughably bad.

100 NaWn will be better than 100 DEWn.

Have you tried DEWz who starts without any weapon and then you have "no spells" conduct while looking for Trog's altar? That's literally the worst Wn start (no fighting/weapon skills, no weapon in hand, worst stats for a melee character and you cannot use spells while you have magic skills already trained). I did it many times and it was not as hopeless as Na who missed poison spit and still has an adjacent monster with no consumables/weapon in inventory. I still could choose when to die with most of those DEWz.

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I think CK is on average quite a lot worse than Wn.

True, I missed the combo. NaCK is the worst combo in the game then, you cannot even run away from those hordes Xom is sending at you every thousand turn

It's not gonna be straightforward to kill a hobgoblin.

Exactly, and then you just run away from the hobgoblin, probably even using energy randomization or another monster to not have hobgoblin adjacent when using stairs if you were unlucky and had it adjacent after opening a door. Try to do it with Na...

No, I have not tried to do things with your crazy no magic Trog Deep Elf conducts. That is why I like talking to you so I can hear the results of your crazy conduct stories.

I, however, have had good results with bad nagas relying heavily/totally on poison spit on D1. Not great troll/minotaur lolotab results. But good results. The character has a very good chance to take down enemies that other characters would find deadly (gnoll w/ halberd, esp if it is encountered at max range.) On the other hand, the character can die to a gnoll halberd it is forced to fight. Oozes present a unique problem.

However, the idea that Naga is the worst start in the game bar none because it can't run away is really far away from my experiences with Nagas. I would expect the worse start in the game to be really bad, and nagas start isn't that bad, and the reason it isn't that bad is poison spit.

I think NaWn does not feel that bad for the worst start in the game because there is no "really bad" start in the game. Every combo can survive D:1 "easily" unless it meets a pack of faster monsters (jackals for normal speed monsters, almost all monsters for Na/Ba) or there is no pillar to dance around but most players just don't enjoy playing in this way.

Edit. I mean I would really be surprised if Dynast/Berder were playing with autoexplore right from turn 1 and still had those impressive streaks.

NaWn is not the worst combo. I'd put it around the 10th percentile. It's significantly worse than any combo for a lot of species.

It looks like I have too little XP with Wn, the background looks OP often (7 first games of current active streak by Berder):

set off with: a wand of flame (15/48), a +0 quarterstaff, a potion of curing, a +0 robe, a +0 dagger, a bread ration
+2 scale mail, a +0 hand axe, the Disquisition on Summoning, a +0 dagger, a bread ration
a +2 scale mail, a +0 hand axe, the Catalogue of Companions, a bread ration
+2 mace, a scroll of teleportation, a potion of curing, a +0 robe, a bread ration
a book of Callings, a potion of curing, a +0 robe, a +0 club, a bread ration
+2 mace, a potion of lignification, a potion of curing, a +0 robe, a +0 dagger, a bread ration
+2 dagger, a potion of haste, a +0 mace, a scroll of teleportation, a +0 robe, a bread ration

I think you might also underestimate how frequently you can use poison spit:

Code:: Vanquished Creatures 2 oozes (D:1) 3 bats (D:1) A goblin (D:1) 2 hobgoblins (D:1) 5 kobolds (D:1) A ball python (D:1) 3 frilled lizards (D:1) 17 creatures vanquished. Notes Turn | Place | Note -------+----------+------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | Brachile the Naga Wanderer began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Brachile set off with: a +2 scale mail, 2 scrolls of teleportation, a +0 club, a +0 dagger, a bread ration 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 25/25 MP: 1/1 50 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 26/32 MP: 2/2 116 | D:1 | You fall through a shaft! 367 | D:1 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 39/39 MP: 3/3 Skill XL: | 1 2 | ---------------+-------+----- Armour | 2 | 2.0 Fighting | | 5.2 Dodging | | 0.8 Stealth | | 3.1 Unarmed Combat | | 1.3 Action || total -------------------------++------- Melee: Dagger || 33 Throw: Stone || 3 Abil: Spit Poison || 21 Armor: Scale mail || 17 Dodge: Dodged || 8

As of gaining level 3 on D:1 (The shafting into LOS of the upstairs on D:2, I walked upstairs without encountering anything)

I could poison spit once for every 3-4 attacks with a dagger, and it was mostly killing everything that it hit with one shot, except the poison-resistant slimes. A standard 10 speed monster takes 2 poison spits before getting into melee range, and a spit every 4th attack is pretty damn effective even once something is in melee range, particularly with Na's larger Hp pool to soak damage until things die.

No, I don't underestimate frequency of poison spit. I put "force_more_message" for getting breath back so I spam the ability as often as possible.

The Tavern

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