The Tavern

I see a lot of responses, and possible views from, people who aren't cool. I would like to strongly request that people refer to the topic title and stay within the topic's mandate.

Siegurt wrote:I see a lot of responses, and possible views from, people who aren't cool. I would like to strongly request that people refer to the topic title and stay within the topic's mandate.

Oooh, I'm sorry, I didn't read the title carefully enough. I clearly overstepped my line here...

I've used Disjunction extremely useful when I snatched Nature's Ally 3 Banner in 0.19 tournament. Of course it was awful in every other games.

Lesser beckoning is really good in postend games for melee warriors. Annoy no more hellions, tormentors, brimstone fiends!

Majang wrote:On Bolt of Magma you write:
I don't ever want to see an EE even looking at this spell, there is no reason to ever cast it instead of LRD.

That sounds too strong to me. Even you would appreciate having it in the Swamp (joke or not), as LRD is usually not an option there. This is the only bolt-type spell for EEs, and in this role gets many applications. As some EEs also want to train Fire magic anyway, the three-school complication is only a problem for purists.

I can't give you evidence from code, but it seems that BoM has a better to-hit rate than Iron Shot, and it fills the gap provided by the underwhelming power of Stone Arrow until IS gets fully online.

Ironically, I'd say that swamp is the single best reason to learn Petrify as an EE. Because petrifying creatures are valid LRD targets.

That's how I won with EE anyway

Awesome and well-reasoned and highly useful post. Thank you, duvessa!

I think Slow might deserve a tiny little bit more love. In one-on-one situation it's functionally equivalent to haste (more or less), making it both a melee enhancer and a way to disengage from most early game fights. It's overshadowed by confuse, but it's in, at least, one starting book that doesn't contain the latter.

Shock
Damage is 1d(3+power/4), to-hit is 8+power/7. Great damage for a level 1 direct damage spell, since it hits twice, and it has LOS range, but you do need a wall. I think Shock is better than Magic Dart but worse than Freeze. As a BEAM_ELECTRICITY spell, only half of AC applies to each hit, so AC is about as good against Shock as it is against anything else.

I think it's worth mentioning that Shock is, like LB, a bolt spell. For LB you write that the situation when you fire down a pack of monsters isn't really important. (I don't think I agree, but you're certainly better at tactics than I am.) But with Shock, in the early game when MP is scarce, it's a way to get more damage out of each MP. Personally, I rate Shock about on par with Freeze for this reason. At least it's a time saver.

Re: Silence: I see your reasons. But would you also say it's bad even for characters that invested heavily in Hexes for other reasons? Hm .. just for Liches alone, the spell slots are probably too precious. Not sure about some of the Elven casters in Vaults, though.

Utis wrote:I think it's worth mentioning that Shock is, like LB, a bolt spell. For LB you write that the situation when you fire down a pack of monsters isn't really important. (I don't think I agree, but you're certainly better at tactics than I am.) But with Shock, in the early game when MP is scarce, it's a way to get more damage out of each MP. Personally, I rate Shock about on par with Freeze for this reason. At least it's a time saver.

I use shock/lightning bolt as a bolt, rather than as a bounce, only in some of the cases when I will hit 4 or more creatures with it (at 3 it's equal to bouncing for damage done, but killing the thing close to you is nearly always better than not doing so.) and when I need to hit "that thing behind that other stuff" and don't have airstrike (Which should rarely be the case now) and *sometimes* I use it as a long distance single target spell, but the number of cases where it's better to hit something for half damage at max range before you get airstrike is very very small.

If you're playing well, it should be very very rare that you have 4 creatures lined up in your LOS that you could zap, and having 4 creatures in your LOS is always inferior to having 1 creature in your LOS, so it's heavily not preferred.

But in that small percentage of cases in that relatively uncommon situation, it's sometimes worth it to use it as a bolt.

Hm, I'm not sure. That's when I use Shock as a bolt, too. I just believe those situation to be not quite so uncommon. I'm the first to admit that I'm a sloppy player ... but still: if I'm fighting a pack of gnolls or orcs (sans priests, of course) or whatever, I find that it's not all that rare to have four ore more of them in a line. Granted, I'm taking twice as much damage from the one in front, but if there are, say, four, then I'm taking only half as much damage from the whole group together (leaving polearms aside). You could argue that I should be splitting them up, instead, but I'm not sure that circumstantially splitting up a pack when you don't have to is such a good thing.

Also, using Shock as a bolt comes also into play when I'm waiting at my double bouncing corner
for two (or more) melee monsters to approach. I'm doing as much damage per MP as when I'm bouncing (unless they are exactly adjacent to each other), but I'm doing so at range.

Utis wrote:Hm, I'm not sure. That's when I use Shock as a bolt, too. I just believe those situation to be not quite so uncommon.I'm the first to admit that I'm a sloppy player ... but still: if I'm fighting a pack of gnolls or orcs (sans priests, of course) or whatever, I find that it's not all that rare to have four ore more of them in a line. Granted, I'm taking twice as much damage from the one in front, but if there are, say, four, then I'm taking only half as much damage from the whole group together (leaving polearms aside). You could argue that I should be splitting them up, instead, but I'm not sure that circumstantially splitting up a pack when you don't have to have to is such a good thing.

Also, using Shock as a bolt comes also into play when I'm waiting at my double bouncing corner
for two (or more) melee monsters to approach. I'm doing as much damage per MP as when I'm bouncing (unless they are exactly adjacent to each other), but I'm doing so at range.

You can bounce hit things at range too...

Siegurt wrote:You can bounce hit things at range too...

Oh, come on! I'm talking about this kind of situation:

Code:: ░.....░ ░.....░ ░..>..░ ░░░░░░░░░░.....░ ░░ ░....*.........░ .░ ░.░░░.l.....░░░ .░ ░.░....*....░ .░░░░.░░░...*g..░░░░ ....░.░░░.....*....░ ..░.........░░░*..^░ ░.░.........░░░.@..░░░░ ░.░..................... ░.░.░..............░░░░░ ░.░.░░░░░░░░░░░....░ ░.░.░ ........░.░░░░ ░.░.░ ░░░'░.░░░░ ░.░.░ ░........░ ░.░ ░........░ ... ░........░ ░.░. ░░░.░+░░░░

Or even simpler:

Code:: ░░......░.░░░........ ░..@.░.........░░░<. ░░'░.░.........░░░.. ░.░.░.............. ░.░.░.░............ ░.░g░.░░░░░░░░░░░.. ░.░.░.░ ........░.░ ░.░Z░.░ ░░░'░.░ ░.░.░.░ ░......

Utis wrote:
Siegurt wrote:You can bounce hit things at range too...

Oh, come on! I'm talking about this kind of situation:

Code:
░.....░ ░.....░ ░..>..░ ░░░░░░░░░░.....░ ░░ ░....*.........░ .░ ░.░░░.l.....░░░ .░ ░.░....*....░ .░░░░.░░░...*g..░░░░ ....░.░░░.....*....░ ..░.........░░░*..^░ ░.░.........░░░.@..░░░░ ░.░..................... ░.░.░..............░░░░░ ░.░.░░░░░░░░░░░....░ ░.░.░ ........░.░░░░ ░.░.░ ░░░'░.░░░░ ░.░.░ ░........░ ░.░ ░........░ ... ░........░ ░.░. ░░░.░+░░░░

Or even simpler:

Code:
░░......░.░░░........ ░..@.░.........░░░<. ░░'░.░.........░░░.. ░.░.░.............. ░.░.░.░............ ░.░g░.░░░░░░░░░░░.. ░.░.░.░ ........░.░ ░.░Z░.░ ░░░'░.░ ░.░.░.░ ░......

Some spots you could move to to get the ranged bounces I'm talking about in your map examples:

Code:: ░.....░ ░.....░ ░..>..░ ░░░░░░░░░░.....░ ░░ ░..2g..........░ .░ ░g░░░3......░░░ .░ ░.░.........░ .░░░░.░░░.......░░░░ ....░.░░░..........░ ..░.....1...░░░...^░ ░.░........g░░░.@..░░░░ ░.░.................... ░.░.░..............░░░░░ ░.░.░░░░░░░░░░░....░ ░.░.░ ....9...░.░░░░ ░.░.░ ░░░g░.░░░░ ░.░.░ ░.....g..░ ░.░ ░........░ ... ░......0.░ ░.░. ░░░.░+░░░░

You can move to position 9, and get two double zaps before the g gets adjacent to you, however you haven't explored the area down that hallway, it might be a dead end, or a corner you could use to get more double zaps, so that's probably suboptimal, position 0 is easy to get to and get double zaps, but the door being closed makes your escape less optimal there, if you had started adjacent to the wall (one square to the left of your actual position) you could have moved to 1, then 2 then 3 each of which would give you double-zap positioning, only after the 3rd one would you possibly be attacked back (if the critter still lived)

Your starting position there is fairly suboptimal (You're away from the wall, and are extended in on direction while leaving backtracking unexplored areas that can cut off your escape or leave you open to wanderers) However even starting from this bad positioning you can get some double zaps before the critter can hit you (two to be specific) and unless you're really badly extended, there's certain to be more out of your LOS paste snippet.

Code:: ░░......░.░░░........ ░..@.░...2.....░░░<. ░░'░.░..1......░░░.. ░.░.░.............. ░.░.░.░............ ░.░g░.░░░░░░░░░░░.. ░.░.░.░ ........░.░ ░.░Z░.░ ░░░'░.░ ░.░.░.░ ░......

Again you're slightly out of position, one square to the right would be a better start, but if you first move to position 1, you are in position to double zap the g, then moving to position 2 gives you one more before retaliation, and puts you in place to double zap that slow-moving zombie when it rounds the corner.

Interesting. I do this kind of dance only against single, tough speed 10 monsters, when I want to get in as much damage as possible before I allow them to close to melee range. Here, I just started a throw-away game for the examples and took the first opportunities where I would use Shock as a bolt.

AFAICS, you're not gaining anything here by bouncing, though. The way I see it, once I decide that it's safe to engage in an encounter, what matters is how I spend my MP and how much damage I receive over the whole of the encounter. Firing through two monsters in a line twice is equivalent to double bouncing each of them once with regard to damage per MP. (This is, of course, assuming that the two monsters are of a comparable threat range; not, for instance, one very dangerous and the other a rat.) You're right that in those examples double bouncing is also equivalent in damage intake. It involves more moving, though, and takes more turns.

(What do you mean by "extended"? If it's about the shape of explored areas: I just cut out that part of the screen that seemed to constitute the relevant theatre of war. Maybe I should have taken more care to avoid ambiguity. It was late, when I did this, though.)

Phaedo wrote:Ironically, I'd say that swamp is the single best reason to learn Petrify as an EE. Because petrifying creatures are valid LRD targets.

Good point. Maybe I should do that, too.

I don't know whether I'm a cool people or not, but my current character is using Summon Forest, which I had discounted before, based on the advice above. And I'm glad I did!

Remove spells

Utis wrote:Interesting. I do this kind of dance only against single, tough speed 10 monsters, when I want to get in as much damage as possible before I allow them to close to melee range. Here, I just started a throw-away game for the examples and took the first opportunities where I would use Shock as a bolt.

AFAICS, you're not gaining anything here by bouncing, though. The way I see it, once I decide that it's safe to engage in an encounter, what matters is how I spend my MP and how much damage I receive over the whole of the encounter. Firing through two monsters in a line twice is equivalent to double bouncing each of them once with regard to damage per MP. (This is, of course, assuming that the two monsters are of a comparable threat range; not, for instance, one very dangerous and the other a rat.) You're right that in those examples double bouncing is also equivalent in damage intake. It involves more moving, though, and takes more turns.

(What do you mean by "extended"? If it's about the shape of explored areas: I just cut out that part of the screen that seemed to constitute the relevant theatre of war. Maybe I should have taken more care to avoid ambiguity. It was late, when I did this, though.)

By "extended" i mean you appeared to have explored some in one direction while not mapping some of the area along your possible retreat path. That might not be true, it might be that you had mapped that area, but had clipped that information from the post.

Generally it is safest to explore in such a way as to leave as few gaps behind you as possible, and to expose yourself to as little new areas as possible for each move (mostly this involves sticking to walls), not to say that everyone micro optimizes to that degree, but it is technically safer.

You are correct that my suggestion was optimizing for fewest turns attacked in melee.

If you were looking for the optimal mp expenditure you would still move around in a very similar way, but would fire through the gnoll to double zap the zombie. If you are optimizing for fewest turns you are correct, not moving is the way to go.

What you should optimize for depends on the threat level of the things, your position (if you are going to be making noise and attracting more combatants) and your current mp situation, and how many turns it would cost to get into such a position.

Since (most) zombies and gnolls move at different rates it is also possible to arrange them next to or far away from each other, as is most optimal for whatever purpose would be most optimal to you.

I was only pointing out that it was possible to move into double zap position even when waiting for creatures to become adjacent to you, i wasn't trying to say that it is always the best choice, frequently it is, but certainly not always.

Siegurt wrote:By "extended" i mean you appeared to have explored some in one direction while not mapping some of the area along your possible retreat path. That might not be true, it might be that you had mapped that area, but had clipped that information from the post.

Yeah, the latter is the case. As in the first example: The explored area was mostly to the east and to the south, IIRC with the closest stairs not too far off in the south. I included the small room to the south only because that would have been were I had retreated if for some reasons I wouldn't manage to kill either the l or the g within four turns. It didn't occur to me that this clipping might cause a misunderstanding. Sorry, it was in the middle of the night here.

Siegurt wrote:What you should optimize for depends on the threat level of the things, your position (if you are going to be making noise and attracting more combatants) and your current mp situation, and how many turns it would cost to get into such a position.

ACK. This versatility is why I value Shock so highly among the lvl 1 spells. With the appropriate Shock Fu (tm) it's such a fine and precise weapon, with such a lot of tactical finesse. If it weren't for adders on dungeon level 2, I'd be tempted to rate it higher than Freeze, even.

duvessa wrote:So this isn't 100% complete; it's missing exact information for some things on some spells, and might even be missing a couple of spells, but I'm posting it now because almost all the important parts are done.

This is a guide to player spells only, monster spells are not covered and I don't plan to cover them.
This is up to date for 0.20.0. I can't promise it will be accurate for later versions.

Would you mind if I formatted your post on the wiki, and tagged it 0.20 and has an "opinion piece"/"player's advice" ?

I'd prefer you didn't, since I don't want to update it in two places and I'd also rather not have to worry about people editing it to include more bad advice/incorrect information.

Maybe put a reference to this thread in wiki then?

duvessa wrote:I'd prefer you didn't, since I don't want to update it in two places and I'd also rather not have to worry about people editing it to include more bad advice/incorrect information.

I can understand, I will try to find a relevant caster guide and link to the thread. I'll probably update a few spells with the most interesting tricks.

I had never managed to start a wizard, and with some lucky early book of callings I am on my way to victory only because of lightening spire that I would probably have skipped without this thread.

Great thread, makes it worth visiting the tavern sometimes after all.

Portal Projectile: level 3, not 2.
Poisonous Vapors: level 2, not 3.

Force Lance: since the knockback length depends on size IIRC, it makes it a decently useful spell in Spider where a lot of things are small or medium sized, fast, and there's plenty of walls. (Also a friendly reminder that ghost moths are large but orbs of fire are little.)

Summon Guardian Golem: a not very obvious synergy with Hep's ancestor exists.

Aura of Abjuration: I always find it great against things that can summon really nasty stuff (fiends), like demonologists, liches, or shadow demons. I found it lackluster only against very few opponents, most notably Gloorx Vloq. That's why it'd be nice if you could include abjuration numbers.

Irradiate: good for one-time use as a general debuff against non-immune, very strong opponents (juggernauts, titans, in extended pan and hell lords etc.) if you want to fight them. It also raises the chance of Confusing Touch to succeed as it lowers monster HD, so I think it's a pretty good spell for Transmuters who already train one of the required schools anyway. Also a decently reliable way to kill orbs of fire, though not a very safe one.
EDIT: it's good as a debuff spell because you don't waste a turn you'd otherwise use for damaging the opponent and it never misses.

Discord: Discord's one non-extended use is TRJ, but of course you won't train for only one use of a level 8 spell.

Disjunction: the only decent way to use it that I found is the orb run and the Death's Door's vulnerability part, none of which are worth the xp investment unless you already have CBlink and enough spell levels left. Might be okay in new Tomb too, still not worth it though.

Aura of abjuration is frequently a very important spell for characters that I tend to play: non-axe melee characters. When you're only hitting one thing per action, having 3 "temporary" enemies between you and the "real" enemies is a horrible waste of time, and thus hit points.

Leszczynek wrote:Discord: Discord's one non-extended use is TRJ, but of course you won't train for only one use of a level 8 spell.

But if you're training Hexes high for say Darkness and Invisibility, brilliance and amnesia might make it worthwhile just for TRJ.

I've seen people suggest that Discord is good in Zot, but I haven't tried it myself.

If you can get discord castable w/ brilliance it is a cool but rarely optimal way to clear lair branch endings.

I've never actually gotten Haunt castable; everyone says it's amazing. Why? It seems like it summons some fairly weak undeads... is it great because it's smite-targeted and will slow monsters down, or are haunt summons surprisingly good at killing monsters?

njvack wrote:I've never actually gotten Haunt castable; everyone says it's amazing. Why? It seems like it summons some fairly weak undeads... is it great because it's smite-targeted and will slow monsters down, or are haunt summons surprisingly good at killing monsters?

because it's smited targeted multiple summon which can inflict slows as you said.
it could be an excellent cover that protects you from enemies attack in many situations
the summoned undeads' damage output usually sucks but phantasmal warriors kill enemies so badly. yet they are rare though

Haunt became one of my favourite spells when I once killed Mennas by casting Haunt 4 times and didn't lose a single hit point myself. Of course being level 7 summon/necro means that it's not a good investment for many characters.

You listed Fulminant Prism as a level 5 spell, but it now appears to be a level 4 spell. Would that change anything in your assessment of it?

On LCS you say that it is just a bigger Iron Shot. This is not quite true; it is more powerful than IS, but its range is reduced to 3. I personally think that a level-8 spell should in all respects be at least as good as the corresponding level-6 spell. Sometimes I wonder whether it is really worth investing into LCS's two extra spell levels. It is nice if things are in range when you see them, but many dangerous monsters don't oblige you with that.

Its actually rather nice that LCS is range 3 on most characters. Monster LCS is less dangerous that way.

Imagine Annihilators, Liches and ALiches with range 6 LCS.

Am I the only player who does not count tiles between me and Lich?
I mean LCS range 3 is not that important when you can get hit by Poison Arrow or Iron Shot instead.
I actually learned from this thread that monster LCS is range 3

It's one of the reasons why frost giants are much less dangerous of fire giants! (the other one fireball being AoE which ignore EV)

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Am I the only player who does not count tiles between me and Lich?

Probably not, but I expect many experienced players are careful about the distance, at least once they become aware of the dangers. Now that enemy spell range is shown in x-v it's harder to get caught out.

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Probably not, but I expect many experienced players are careful about the distance, at least once they become aware of the dangers. Now that enemy spell range is shown in x-v it's harder to get caught out.

You gave me an idea, thank you...

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Am I the only player who does not count tiles between me and Lich?
I mean LCS range 3 is not that important when you can get hit by Poison Arrow or Iron Shot instead.

Lich parrow: 3d27
Lich LCS: 3d40

I see a noticeable difference here

Ok, am the only player who does not remember damage rolls for LCS and Poison Arrow and also how much rPois helps vs the latter?

I don't think many people know the exact numbers, but surely most experienced players know that LCS does a lot more damage than PArrow.

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I don't think many people know the exact numbers, but surely most experienced players know that LCS does a lot more damage than PArrow.

What does more damage: Iron Shot (range 5, level 6) or PArrow (range 7, level 6)? No googling please

With or without rPois?

Both, if you know the answers.

I don't know the answer, but I suspect PArrow does more damage than Iron Shot without rPois, and less damage with rPois.

Now, let's google...

Turns out I'm an idiot, and Iron Shot is actually quite scary at 3d44. With that range, it's probably more scary than LCS.

Monster LCS: 3d(16+power/10)
Monster iron shot: 3d(8+power/9)
Monster stone arrow: 3d(5+power/10)
Monster poison arrow: 3d(7+power/12)

Monster spell power appears to be:
HD*15*(1+1d3) for Confusing Gaze
HD*54 for Cause Fear
HD*48 for Sentinel's Mark
HD*30 for Mesmerise and Sap Magic
HD*27 for Siren Song
HD*24 for Mass Confusion
HD*20 for Abjuration
HD*18 for Sleep, Dimension Anchor, Agony, Strip Resistance, Drain Magic, and Virulence
HD*8 for Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
HD*6 for LRD, Monstrous Menagerie, Battlesphere, Spectral Weapon, Ignite Poison, Conjure Flame, and IOOD
HD*5 for Summon Hydra, Ozocubu's Refrigeration, and Summon Dragon
HD*4 for Chain Lightning and Chain of Chaos
HD for Drain Life
max(150,HD*12) for Pain
...and HD*12 for all other spells.

So monster iron shot outdamages monster LCS at HD values over 60, and monster stone arrow outdamages monster poison arrow at HD values over 10.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:What does more damage: Iron Shot (range 5, level 6) or PArrow (range 7, level 6)? No googling please

I'm a little confused about ranges. Iron Shot definitely has only range 4 these days, same as Stone Arrow. The Wiki also said 5, but I corrected this now. Has this been changed recently, or has the Wiki always been wrong on that? Maybe it had been edited by a Vehumet worshipper?

Majang wrote:I'm a little confused about ranges. Iron Shot definitely has only range 4 these days, same as Stone Arrow. The Wiki also said 5, but I corrected this now. Has this been changed recently, or has the Wiki always been wrong on that? Maybe it had been edited by a Vehumet worshipper?

Sorry about confusion, it was my mistake, I use wiki for numbers mostly. I don't remember ranges of different spells and I am not going to

Well, then it was definitely not your mistake, but Wiki's. Where else would you get your numbers from, except from observing things in the game (which is what I did in this case)? I'm mathematically challenged and can't code-dive, and I guess that applies to most of us here.

A lot of spell ranges changed with the introduction of 7los, but another possible cause is that range numbers are kind of ambiguous to someone who doesn't source dive. @----> is a range of 5, but it's very plausible that you could call it 6 instead because there are 6 characters.

duvessa wrote:A lot of spell ranges changed with the introduction of 7los, but another possible cause is that range numbers are kind of ambiguous to someone who doesn't source dive. @----> is a range of 5, but it's very plausible that you could call it 6 instead because there are 6 characters.

I don't understand why devs use this weird format when numbers are more user-friendly and standard.
Am I really expected to count number of "-" in @------->? Why can't it be just 7??? It is not spell power or other non-linear scale like rF+++, it is really 7 tiles.

The Tavern

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Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people