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Magipi wrote:Are you sure about this? I think this does not work like that.

I am not sure because I don't train just a single skill in autotraining mode, that would make autotraining identical to manual training. If it does not work as expected, it is a bug and should be fixed.

As for your example, what does species or int or armour have to do with anything? My point was that not whether cblink is good or bad. My point was that when I allocate how to train, I do that because that is how I want it to be. The program overriding my decisions is clearly absurd.

My point was based on my assumptions from previous paragraph i.e. a skill is not trained if it is not used.
As about Str/Int/Armour, I was trying to point that you would NOT want Translocations autotrained on that Troll, so why do you want it autotrained on other characters?
By the way, it's a very hard decision, I have no idea when it is optimal to go for CBlink even on Sp or Fe because it still takes much time and XP and you can become weak for current monsters because you stop improving for a long time.

Okay, okay, forget that I mentioned cblink, I was just picked the first spell that same to mind. Change it to something you like.

My point is this: autotraining is really, really bad, a relic of the past. Yes, sometimes it produces not-horrible results (like with berserkers), but mostly it is awful. It should not exist. Even if it exists (for some reason I cannot figure out), it definitely should not be default. This is a slap in the face of all new players who have no reason to suspect that this awful mechanism even exists.

Ok, let me play a caster with autotraining then. Hopefully it will be a good excuse to break my streak

Edit. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=23775&p=314835

I am sure. Single skill enabled autotraining works exactly like single skill enabled manual training.

What autotraining does is instead of splitting XP evenly among enabled skills (which is what manual does) autotraining divides XP among enabled skills *proportional to their relative use* so if both conjurations and dodging are enabled and you use conjuration twice as much as dodging, conjuration will get 66% and dodging will get 33%

It is on by default, because micromanaging your skills isn't the first most important thing you learn as a new player, basic movement and how to attack stuff is. By enabling your skills, and turning on autotraining, a new player can start playing the game and get somewhat of sense of how much their skills are being used, before having to choose what to train. (Which is really hard to do if you don't really understand what skills do)

Auto training is better than manual training in the case where the player never (not even once) opens the skill menu. Which is something that a new player might conceivably do, if they don't know there is a skill menu. Once they understand the effect that skills have and know how to operate the menu, they hopefully get curious about/ask someone what manual training is, and can switch over.

I do kind of wish that auto training could be removed, but I do see it having some use for players who haven't yet understood the skill system, which is probably why it will hang around forever.

tasonir wrote:I do kind of wish that auto training could be removed

Why? To remove that "press / to switch to manual mode" row in skills menu?

I would understand you if you were talking about player ghosts as they are not optional (and I still can't find mental energy to continue that autotraining game where I have a player ghost in view

) but autotraining can be turned off in RC file so it does not bother you unless you want it to bother you

, maybe ask devs for new option to disable it completely if you enable it accidentally sometimes?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I was going to write a detailed answer but probably it is better to write a short version "train offense first, then defense, then more offense".
The below is taken from DEIE of Sif Muna of one of the leaders of current tournament, take a look at first 10 XLs as above that you can do whatever
Code:
Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 | ---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------+----- Ice Magic | 4 5 6 8 9 | 9.4 Conjurations | 2 3 4 | 4.4 Summonings | 1 4 5 6 7 9 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 | 20.1 Spellcasting | 6 8 11 13 14 16 17 20 22 | 22.6 Fighting | 1 4 7 9 | 9.2 Stealth | 3 5 9 | 9.0 Dodging | 7 10 12 15 17 18 | 18.5 Evocations | 3 7 8 9 | 9.7 Invocations | 8 9 | 9.6 Shields | 6 | 6.0 Charms | 10 11 | 11.4 Air Magic | 7 8 | 8.1 Translocations | 4 | 4.3 Short Blades | 1 7 8 | 8.2

I usually have a few fighting and a weapon skill for IE no matter the race to deal with the various cold resistant creatures in the early dungeon, but I suppose that's a mistake judging from this. I guess the player avoids the monsters instead of fighting them head on.

I can't spontaneously think of any cold resistant monsters in the early dungeon that are difficult to avoid (i.e. fast). Also, cold resistant doesn't mean immune. Freeze is very strong and Ice Beasts kill anything really.

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I can't spontaneously think of any cold resistant monsters in the early dungeon that are difficult to avoid (i.e. fast). Also, cold resistant doesn't mean immune. Freeze is very strong and Ice Beasts kill anything really.

I agree, really early you pretty much just have the rare skele/zombie adder that are both fast and cold resistant but those are super weak and typically, even with 0 weapon skill and only minimal fighting and strength, you can kill those with any +0 early game weapon, and almost as quickly with freeze if using a weapon isnt an option. Ice beasts show up a bit later and if they are difficult to avoid (say you are playing a slow race), by that point you should have a pack of your own to kill them with.

Maybe if you are playing a slow race and come across a zombie with a dangerous weapon or something?

Yes, it's a different story for slow races. Na and Ba should usually look for a decent non-elemental alternative. Although Na is often stealthy enough to avoid zombies, and is quite strong in melee. I've never played Ba, so can't really comment.

I mean if you look at when that DEIE hit level 6 (roughly floor 3 or 4), they have ice and summoning at level 5, and raised that up to skill level 8 and 7 by character level 8. So starting at d:3-4, they can comfortably cast summon ice beast, which will take care of any enemy ice beasts or skeletons with resistances. And then their spellpower with it increased and they probably were more than capable of throwing around some icicles as well.

IE isn't really a background that has much trouble with resistant monsters - that's more VM and Ne. Both of which should pick up some sort of melee attack to handle resistances, in most cases.

Siegurt wrote:micromanaging your skills isn't the first most important thing you learn as a new player, basic movement and how to attack stuff is. By enabling your skills, and turning on autotraining, a new player can start playing the game and get somewhat of sense of how much their skills are being used, before having to choose what to train. (Which is really hard to do if you don't really understand what skills do)

Maybe I'm overestimating the intelligence of new players here but basic movement and attacking do not take a lot to learn.

If you can access skill menu, why would you not want to control what you want to train? I just cannot understand how could you expect anyone to learn to be better just assuming 'he will check his skills from time to time and see how they are doing'? Instead of learning to control it from the start.

Sphara wrote:
Siegurt wrote:micromanaging your skills isn't the first most important thing you learn as a new player, basic movement and how to attack stuff is. By enabling your skills, and turning on autotraining, a new player can start playing the game and get somewhat of sense of how much their skills are being used, before having to choose what to train. (Which is really hard to do if you don't really understand what skills do)

Maybe I'm overestimating the intelligence of new players here but basic movement and attacking do not take a lot to learn.

If you can access skill menu, why would you not want to control what you want to train? I just cannot understand how could you expect anyone to learn to be better just assuming 'he will check his skills from time to time and see how they are doing'? Instead of learning to control it from the start.

Because a lot of new users start by using the number pad or mouse to click on things and expore the game before they have even gotten as far as understanding there *is* a skill menu, "hey i can wander around and hit stuff" doesn't take very long to learn, but your very first game is likely to be short, and it is perfectly viable to go through the first couple dozen games where you are learning the controls before you even learn there is a skill menu to access, and yes once you find it, you are likely to want to mess with it, but some people look at a screen like that and go "Oh that is a lot of stuff, i will figure it out later, once i figure out how to pick up that sword and use it"

The point is that the skill menu shouldn't be a *prerequisite* to learning how to move, attack, etc.

"start by using number pad"

I still use it.

But you're probably right there. I am obviously overestimating the intelligence of new players. So more hand-holding and less independent thinking is better.

Sphara wrote:"start by using number pad"

I still use it.

But you're probably right there. I am obviously overestimating the intelligence of new players. So more hand-holding and less independent thinking is better.

The point of "number pad or mouse" wasn't to denigrate them as control mechanisms, but to say that they are obvious and intuitive, so it's where new players will start, skills by their very nature are not 'obvious and intuitive'

Siegurt wrote:
4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I can't spontaneously think of any cold resistant monsters in the early dungeon that are difficult to avoid (i.e. fast). Also, cold resistant doesn't mean immune. Freeze is very strong and Ice Beasts kill anything really.

I agree, really early you pretty much just have the rare skele/zombie adder that are both fast and cold resistant but those are super weak and typically, even with 0 weapon skill and only minimal fighting and strength, you can kill those with any +0 early game weapon, and almost as quickly with freeze if using a weapon isnt an option. Ice beasts show up a bit later and if they are difficult to avoid (say you are playing a slow race), by that point you should have a pack of your own to kill them with.

Maybe if you are playing a slow race and come across a zombie with a dangerous weapon or something?

An early wyvern skeleton/zombie can wreck your shit, but that problem extends to just about any character that is squishy and doesn't have a powerful offensive option available rather than just IE. That's probably the most threatening cold resistant monster I can think of that is fast and even remotely common pre-Temple though.

I always seem to meet wight packs or entire undead levels or player ghosts as IE. If I don't have a few levels, I find that I just have to skip the level entirely. I've never played DEEI either so the skilling is somewhat slower or more probably lack the MP. In my experience, Ice beasts kill other icebeasts so slowly that you are more likely to run out of MP before it dies, though it gives a good opportunity for escape.

As for skilling in general, I don't see a problem with a message like ''press (hotkey) to open the skill menu to see how your experience will be spent!" as part of the opening message.

Plantissue wrote:As for skilling in general, I don't see a problem with a message like ''press (hotkey) to open the skill menu to see how your experience will be spent!" as part of the opening message.

Isn't there a tutoriel chapter about skilling? If not I think that's what's missing. Otherwise no problem.

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