The Tavern

Hello Tavern!

I am currently in the midst of a 15-rune win with a MiBe of Trog>TSO>Zin>TSO (version 0.20). Assuming this is actually successful, what do you think the next easiest combination would be? Can't wait for that VP...

Easiest non-Mi & non-Be combination (for variety's sake)?

Any amount of combinations that you would like to rank are appreciated - but this would be quite an undertaking, so top 5 would be more than enough!

Thanks for your input!

*edit to specify 3 rune*

Easiest non-Be is surely some deep dwarf. Of Makhleb.

But if you want 15 runes, then stay away from DD, it is annoying in extended (although strong).

I think DDEE is the strongest, easiest combo in the game (better than MiBe). I would also say CeBe, DDBe, and TrBe are better than MiBe, as well as several other deep dwarves. There's not much that can beat starting with high HP and a huge pile of heal wounds.

My opinion of the top 5 strongest combos is:
DDEE
DDNe
DDIE
DDBe
DDWz

3 vs 15 runes doesn't change the power ranking at all imo. Race/background is barely relevant by the time you get the 3rd rune.

If you don't want to play a Mi or a Be try something like HOFi, it is not that much weaker than Mi, while also not being a Berserker, or having any racial Features that would change how you play.

I've always considered 4 races to be in the "tier 1" of best crawl races: VS, Mi, Ce, and DD. Since you already won Mi and want to exclude it, Ce/VS/DD are your next best options.

Close seconds in tier 2 are gargoyle and troll. You could argue for another one or two races here, but as of right now, I'm kind of feeling like only these two, and the rest go down to tier 3 or lower.

As for backgrounds, I usually go with warrior backgrounds because I don't personally like to play casters - fighters, gladiators, monks (These are somewhat weaker but I still happen to love them). Necromancer makes a great melee start which ensures you'll have access to one of the strongest magic schools when you're ready to branch out. Don't underestimate stacking regen even on races which already have high regen. Trolls and VS are on the top of the power rankings in no small part because of built in regen, and adding more to it is a great plan.

I agree with people saying IE is an objectively strong start, I just am not that partial to playing them. For casters I usually go with more straight forward backgrounds, FE (damage, damage, and more damage) or Cj (very nice in that nothing resists pure conjurations).

In short:
Tier 1 races (non-Mi): VS, DD, Ce
Tier 2: Gr, Tr

Backgrounds: Fi, Gl, Ne, IE, FE, Cj
Note on combinations: Most of the tier 1/2 races tend towards martial or Necromancer backgrounds, and less towards IE/FE/Cj, although you certainly could do that.

DgWn

I definitely want to throw in the GrEE as a fairly winnable combination. Good aptitudes for the needed skills, and excellent defences.

Any Ce that starts with a ranged skill (AM, Hu) is very powerful in the early dungeon. Polearms are strong too (AK, Fi, Gl, Sk, Wr), as you can kite most dangerous monsters, including adders, gnolls, jackal packs, etc. The magic starts are fine too, but slower to play.

DD is also strong, as people have said, especially book starts.

If you want to play something a bit more interesting grab a species with decent health and high aptitude for a good book start, like MfIE. (But of course DDEE is just that, but better.)

In terms of pure ease of use Mf/HO/Gr/Tr Gl or Fi.

In terms of winrate non-Be book start on any viable race.

In terms of optimal play DD/fast move book/launcher start.

Is DD even close to OP after the removal of /HW?

I wasn't able to get to a Makhleb altar in previous attempts even with the wand, just checking if this is user error.

The removal of /HW barely touched them, aside from DDAK. They still have an absurd number of heal wounds uses.

I don't think it's user error, but others are better than me. You should use the healing ability liberally. Ne start helps by giving Vampiric Draining and allies. Fi also helps with strong starting defenses. Splatting until early vamp weapon or Mahkleb altar is most reliable for me.

EDIT: I do think DD is very strong once the you get defense, offense, and healing solved.

Why AK? Because you need decent MP earlyish for God abilities?

DDAK doesn't get to worship Makhleb, Kiku, or Trog without incurring Lugonu wrath.

Real men play octopodes.

Got that covered, I've probably killed more octopodes than any other species. But what's your preferred Op background?

I really like Fighter for the shield, and Ice Elementalist for a level three spell that gives you some armor.

I'm sure DD is strong but having won one once I don't ever want to play one again.

Wow... that really sums up DD perfectly. First attempt got through D:1-14, all of Lair and Orc before dying on D:15. Learned a lot about the EE book and casted LRD/Petrify 100x more than any previous runs. No regen is definitely good for driving home careful/optimal play, I'll grant it that much.

Way better than I expected to do, but holy crap that is not fun. Maybe I will try out an OpEE instead.

I don't understand this at all. Did the removal of the HW wand fuck DDs this hard? In earlier versions DD was the easiest and strongest species.


Even if DD sucks in trunk, it surely cannot be worse than Op.

My problem with DD has nothing to do with whether /HW exists or not, though I'll admit I did get my DD win in 0.19 for that reason because I thought it would be easier. It just feels unfun, because I have to shoehorn external healing into whatever build I want. What if I want to do a Dith hunter build, or a Hepl hexer melee run, or a Vehumet blaster? Out of luck, or conversely, requires start scumming until I get lucky enough for early vamp weapon? Not fun, IMO, YMMV. DD is sure powerful, the character I won with was a bruiser. But unfun is too high a cost for me for that power to want to play it again.

Fascinating, I had the same feeling but for a completely unrelated reason.

I am not bothered by the pseudo-required worship of Makhleb. He is already among my most worshipped deities regardless of species. I also tend not to branch out to the less optimal gods very often as it is.

The added cognitive load and decision making of where you can safely "regenerate" your health via popcorn combat and the tedious backtracking it necessitated just bothered me. Hard to put my finger on it beyond that.

I also thought it felt very strong (farthest I have ever taken an EE) and cannot dispute the power of the species -- just not my cup of tea. The improved QoL on the next non-DD I rolled up felt quite substantial to me.

I agree with these two. OpFi is my most successful mostly melee wins (15 runes with and without transmutations). OpIE is very solid not so much because of armor although that is also nice but because of summon ice beast. Some other setups can probably work similarly well as IE but IE has everything you need for an Op and lets you choose any god. My caster Op 15 runes have all been IE I think. I don't usually 3 rune Op though.