advice on weapon/skill choice

[tch]

I am playing since quite some time already, but still didnt make a single win, so I think I could use some spoilers.

I am playing a MiBe on 0.19.4. At level 11 my current axe skill is 12,5. I started with an axe and didnt find anything special yet. In general I dont know what is the best way to decide what weapon to wield. I have a simple hand axe +4 and just found a + 2 hand axe of chopping. I read that chopping deals on average +16.6% additional damage, but still I am not sure how to compare the two. I have 3 enchant weapons so I am undecided between using a +7 hand axe or +5 chopping. I have the feeling that it is best to use the enchant scrolls better sooner than later, or should I keep them for a better axe?

The best weapon I found so far is a +4 Longsword of Zin's Eny (freeze and rF+). I used it a bit and have longs sword skill at 2,4. Does it make sense to split skill points between axes and longs sword? I mean they dont crosstrain, but if I train both then I have access to almost all weapon types through crosstraining. Also for hydras a flaming long sword may be handy (if I find one).

Afaik the best axes are two-handed, but until I find one I thought some shields skill can be usefull. I have it currently at 5. At what point should I stop training shields? Also with dodging I am not sure. Found a ring of evasion +3 and wearing a chain mail i have AC 17 EV 14. At some point I might have to drop the ring to use the slot for resistances, but I am not sure in general how important is EV/dodging for a MiBe.

I usually pick up any tomahawks I find, because without access to magic I like to get some throwing to soften enemies. For what skill level should I aim? Or should I concentrate on plain axe hacking?

[tasonir]

Most people usually use 2 handed axes yes, although there's also a valid case for using a broad axe + shield if you want to go for a defensive style build. If you do use a normal sized shield on a normal sized race (minotaurs are normal sized) you need 15 skill to remove all removable penalties, although on a fighter build it's perfectly fine to use a shield while you are still training towards this goal.

There is no case for using a hand axe as an end game weapon (other than as a challenge condition), it's simply too weak and is meant to just be an early game weapon. I wouldn't enchant either of them.

As a berserker, Trog will gift you weapons, so you should be able to easily upgrade to either a battle axe (good, and common) or executioner's axe (takes a bit more skill and is more rare, but is stronger). The base type of the axe is more important than its enchantment or brand.

Weapons in crawl are very simple: A base speed, a damage value, and 1 or 2 hands. That's basically it. You want the highest damage value you can get, and then you need 2 skill levels to reduce the speed by 1 aut from the base, until you can reach min delay. This is displayed for you on the weapon description, so you can see what you need for min delay. Get to that quickly if you can - for a weapon like a hand axe you can reach min delay pretty early on, if you come across something like an executioner's axe it will take some time. Enchantments and brands do matter, but are usually secondary to finding the right type first.

Early on train your weapon skill exclusively, until you reach a comfortable amount. Exactly how much that is varies based on what you have and what other skills you want to also learn, but as a rule of thumb you probably want to take your weapon skill up to 8-10 pretty quickly, and then maybe keep training your weapon but also train shields, fighting, armor, or dodging. Don't train all four of those at once, just pick 1-2 skills and focus on them. For example you almost always will be more suited for armor or dodging and should just pick one of those two, and not train both early on. Much later on, when you're level 15-20, it's reasonable to train the "other" one, but focus on your core skills first.

[Leszczynek]

Don't use enchant weapon scrolls on hand axes, that's just sad.
Those +2/+4, henceforth called slaying bonuses, are as good as base damage of a weapon if you're exactly at 0 weapon skill, 0 fighting and 10 strength. For anything above that, you get on average +2.5% per 1 Str above 10, +2% per weapon skill point and +1.67% per fighting skill point as a bonus to base damage while slaying bonus stays the same. In other words, base damage is much more important than a slaying bonus. It's also why hand axes suck hard.
Don't split points, decide on one melee weapon category and focus on that. (Though if you had to switch to something else, Minotaurs are the best race at being versatile as far as weapons go.)
For hydras a flaming axe will work as well as a flaming sword, however the usual tactic for fighting hydras when you focus on axes, aside from just running away from them, is to instead carry a morningstar or a dire flail with you (or something stronger from that category, if you find it) and use that because axes crosstrain maces & flails. Or throw things at them. Or use wands. Or use summons. There are a lot of ways.
For a threshold for your shield, if you have one, just check its description and don't train the skill above what's written there.
If you want to use throwing weapons, about 6-8 Throwing before D:10 would be OK, then 12 Throwing before getting your first rune and 16 Throwing for the end of the game. Again, if you want to use throwing weapons. It's not necessary at all.

[MainiacJoe]

The only thing I'd add to the above is that one of the best things about Trog is the ammo gifts. As soon as an arbalest, longbow, or fustibalus shows up, train just a little of that skill and you'll start getting ammo and launcher gifts for it. Maybe Trog will give you one of these weapons unsolicited. Once you get a big axe to mindelay, and train defenses some, then you can train the launcher further--but use it even when not fully trained. Dealing damage at range is hugely helpful to your survivability, and not least because it gives you something obviously useful to do as monsters approach you, instead of you approaching them. Throwing is less useful because javelins are more costly XP-wise than the other ranged skills to get similar damage; to make up for it, you can also use needles and nets with that skill. But for simplicity for beginners, go with one of the launcher skills.

[bel]

I started with an axe and didnt find anything special yet. In general I dont know what is the best way to decide what weapon to wield. I have a simple hand axe +4 and just found a + 2 hand axe of chopping. I read that chopping deals on average +16.6% additional damage, but still I am not sure how to compare the two.

Welcome to crawl's super-complicated damage formulae!

The best way to compare two weapons is to run fsim. There are various rules of thumb, which are more complicated than simply running fsim and getting a bit of experience. Here is a short guide on how to use fsim. Takes 10-30 minutes to figure out once, and all your future worries will be over. Teach a man to fish and all that jazz.

Essentially, you start a new game in wizard mode, set up your character to be as close as possible to the character you are playing and use the "&f" command to simulate a fight with a single monster. Details are in the guide I linked above (most of which you don't need to know).

[tch]

Thanks for the tips!

I dropped the idea of longs swords and completely focused on axes. In the meantime I found a nice battleaxe of the ecumenical temple. Got my axe skill up to 20 to have the minimum attack delay. I already got a executioner axe, but it is only +4, the +12 on the other axe just feels nicer and for now I want to push the fighting skill a bit more before aiming for the 26 axe skill needed to wield the executioner efficiently.

I dropped the idea of investing skill in ranged completely. I still use throwing sometimes, but I feel its a waste of xp. It is quite usefull to get the attention of enemies and lure them into a corridor independent of the dmg it does.

I finished the lair and the orc mines and reached dl 15. Any advice where to go next? The last time I reached this point any branch felt much more difficult then anything before and usually I die quite fast at this point of the game, so this time I want to think twice. My resistances are:

rF +
rC ++
rN +
rP +
rE +
rCor -
MR +

and I have Reflect +

I am thinking of Swamp or Spider Nest or taking a careful look at the first levels of the Elven halls (got a variety of anti magic axes). I dont have any experience with swamp, because usually I find the Shoals, which afaik are more difficult than the swamp.

UPDATE: cleared the first 3 levels of swamp, didnt dare to go to level 4, cleared first level of elven halls and first level of spider nest. So far no bigger problems, but running out of safe choices soon. Fighting is up to 19, plannig to go for 200 hp (currently 166) and then switch back to axes to go for skill 26.

UPDATE2: Got the first rune in the spider nest. With rP it wasnt that hard and in the end my ring of see invisible came in quite handy. If i manage to get a second one, I am as far as never before. Hope nobody minds that I use this thread to log my progress

UPDATE3: Swamp cleared Wasnt that hard after all. Only real danger I encountered was thorn hunter, but by approaching them fast and going into melee asap, the are quite beatable. Now switching to anti magic executioners axe and using all my enchant weapsons, lets see how the elves will like it...

UPDATE4: Unfortunately the elves didnt like it too much and I run into some troubles. Used up all my healing potions and was cast to the abyss twice. Could escape by using lots of brothers. Now I really have no idea where to get the third one....

[Siegurt]

Thanks for the tips!

I dropped the idea of longs swords and completely focused on axes. In the meantime I found a nice battleaxe of the ecumenical temple. Got my axe skill up to 20 to have the minimum attack delay. I already got a executioner axe, but it is only +4, the +12 on the other axe just feels nicer and for now I want to push the fighting skill a bit more before aiming for the 26 axe skill needed to wield the executioner efficiently.

I dropped the idea of investing skill in ranged completely. I still use throwing sometimes, but I feel its a waste of xp. It is quite usefull to get the attention of enemies and lure them into a corridor independent of the dmg it does.

I finished the lair and the orc mines and reached dl 15. Any advice where to go next? The last time I reached this point any branch felt much more difficult then anything before and usually I die quite fast at this point of the game, so this time I want to think twice. My resistances are:

rF +
rC ++
rN +
rP +
rE +
rCor -
MR +

and I have Reflect +

I am thinking of Swamp or Spider Nest or taking a careful look at the first levels of the Elven halls (got a variety of anti magic axes). I dont have any experience with swamp, because usually I find the Shoals, which afaik are more difficult than the swamp.

UPDATE: cleared the first 3 levels of swamp, didnt dare to go to level 4, cleared first level of elven halls and first level of spider nest. So far no bigger problems, but running out of safe choices soon. Fighting is up to 19, plannig to go for 200 hp (currently 166) and then switch back to axes to go for skill 26.

UPDATE2: Got the first rune in the spider nest. With rP it wasnt that hard and in the end my ring of see invisible came in quite handy. If i manage to get a second one, I am as far as never before. Hope nobody minds that I use this thread to log my progress

UPDATE3: Swamp cleared Wasnt that hard after all. Only real danger I encountered was thorn hunter, but by approaching them fast and going into melee asap, the are quite beatable. Now switching to anti magic executioners axe and using all my enchant weapsons, lets see how the elves will like it...

UPDATE4: Unfortunately the elves didnt like it too much and I run into some troubles. Used up all my healing potions and was cast to the abyss twice. Could escape by using lots of brothers. Now I really have no idea where to get the third one....

Traditionally, the third rune is from the vaults, you could explore some of the depths first, but the first 4 levels of vaults is easier.

Slime makes an ok alternate third rune, and the abyss is reasonable for some builds (probably not yours, you may have noticed that melee fighters in heavy armour tend to be overwhelmed if they aren't powerful enough)

Some people will swear that slime is easier than the vaults, really i feel like it depends on your build (personally i do vaults 3rd most of the time, although that may be inertia)

At very least clear vaults 1-4 first.

[MainiacJoe]

FWIW I usually go in this order. My goal in every game I've played to win (as opposed to just having fun to kill time) is to get 5 runes.

1. Upper dungeon
   
2. All of Lair
   
3. All of Orc
   
4. Finish Dungeon
   
5. All of first rune branch
   
6. These in some order:
   1. All of second rune branch
   2. Elf (has loot at the end)
   3. Crypt (has loot at the end)
   4. Vaults 1-4
7. All of Depths
   
8. Slime and Vaults:5 in either order
   
9. Abyss
   
10. All of Zot and ascend

[tch]

Thanks for the reply. I will try my luck in the vaults then.
After hundreds of deaths on the early levels I decided to go for the most straightforward option, ie MiBe with an axe. Getting the first 2 runes was surprisingly easy until I got beaten up by those stupid elves. Anyhow I have the feeling that the first part of the game got much easier over time. The last time i played regularly was on version 0.12 or so and there definetly did not finish lair and orc mines in a rush on every run. However, now even with my first try since long time with a HE conjurer I made it past lair and orc mines and with MiBe I think it is pretty hard to fail before one of the mid to late branches.

[MainiacJoe]

If the stupid elves are beating up on you by inflicting status effects, the Trog's Hand ability gives you extra magic resistance. If they are simply overwhelming you with numbers, you can lure them away in small packs. Most Elf:3 layouts facilitate luring nicely. Walk towards the vault one step at a time, when you spot an elf stop moving. If it notices you itself (the ? on its tile goes away) retreat and once it and whoever followed its initial shout are out of earshot of the rest of the vault, kill them. If you need to wake up the elf yourself, shoot it with something, then retreat. Keep doing this, and be ready to retreat to Elf:2 sooner rather than later, and you can clear the vault. I love the feeling at the end when I'm creeping in and waiting for someone to notice me, and I discover I've lured all of them out.

[tch]

If the stupid elves are beating up on you by inflicting status effects, the Trog's Hand ability gives you extra magic resistance.

yes I was a bit too weak on magic resistance. In the meantime I have MR +++ and I think once I cleared vaults 1-4 I will give the elves another try. Currently reading the wiki to understand how usefull those artifacts are that I keep in my stash. Got two phials of flood, a box of beast, crystal ball of energy, fan of gales, disc of storms and phantom mirror. I always neglected those items a bit, because I was never sure on possible negative effects, but I think now its time to learn what they can do, especially as I am running out of life savers such as potions and teleport scrolls.

[tch]

FYI died on levl 2 of the crypt. Probably too litle rN. Highest score ever
Thanks again too all of you guys. Next time I will make it

[tasonir]

I dropped the idea of longs swords and completely focused on axes. In the meantime I found a nice battleaxe of the ecumenical temple. Got my axe skill up to 20 to have the minimum attack delay. I already got a executioner axe, but it is only +4, the +12 on the other axe just feels nicer and for now I want to push the fighting skill a bit more before aiming for the 26 axe skill needed to wield the executioner efficiently.

Just wanted to say that this part is accurate as well as very sound strategically (i.e. getting defenses going with a min delay battleaxe before later training for the executioner axe). Very quick turn around from all the questions before, so glad you got a new high score and chances are you understand enough to get deeper into the dungeon more reliably now. You may still have some deaths in new end game zones (Zot), but hey, shouldn't be too far away from a first win!