The Tavern

To make shields not almost universal newbie trap i propose to make bucklers/shields/large shields require 2.4/9/15 skill to remove penalties

on every species.

Mod edit: moved from GDD

Haven't you heard? The tavern meme meta has shifted. Shields are good now.

Yeah, according to some they are OP!

protip: shields are still good if you have less than 4/15/25 skill.

2-handed weapons are more likely noob trap.

shields have always been pretty good in places

shields skill has always been bad

No one else here gets 25 shield skill on every character regardless of race/background? No one?

Wow. I am truly streets ahead of this forum.

lethediver wrote:No one else here gets 25 shield skill on every character regardless of race/background? No one?

Wow. I am truly streets ahead of this forum.

I've seen several new players who trained weapon to 27 first while their dodging was below 10 but it does not mean that we should buff weapon skill pretending it is just a trap.

The two cases in which I train Shields skill are:

A spellcaster has found a nice and/or early buckler, so I train Shields enough to remove its spellcasting penalty.
I've found a one-handed weapon I'm satisfied with as an endgame weapon, and I've found a nice shield and/or a nice amulet of reflection.

Are these good practices?

MainiacJoe wrote:The two cases in which I train Shields skill are:

A spellcaster has found a nice and/or early buckler, so I train Shields enough to remove its spellcasting penalty.
I've found a one-handed weapon I'm satisfied with as an endgame weapon, and I've found a nice shield and/or a nice amulet of reflection.
Are these good practices?

1. Sure.
2. If I find a great one-hander, I'll often train Shd to 4 early after finding any buckler. 4 skill is cheap, 15 is not, so I'll wait and see whether a great two-hander pops up before committing, and just keep upgrading the buckler.

I largely agree; Bucklers are very efficient investments if you have a good one handed weapon, training Shields past 4 is an endgame commitment I reserve for a good one handed weapon on a character that relies on EV for mitigation (if I'm in CPA and have <10 dodging in Vaults I don't really care...) or have reflection. Shields don't have a to-hit penalty, nor a speed penalty, only EV and spellcasting. If I'm not casting, and I'm not dodging immediately, meh? I'll train dodging if I'm going to and train shields later?

Early game if I'm in armour I will ALWAYS slap on the biggest shield I can find.

Kuprin wrote:Shields don't have a to-hit penalty, nor a speed penalty

They do have both. To-hit penalty stays forever, speed penalty disappears normally at high enough Shields level (15 for regular shield for most species etc.)

Kuprin wrote:I largely agree; Bucklers are very efficient investments if you have a good one handed weapon

I realized after I wrote the above that training Shields to 4 does slightly impact your chance of acquiring a two-handed vs. one-handed weapon. I'm not sure how large an effect this is, and it is almost certainly a lesser cost than not training the buckler. It probably belongs in the category of, "If you're worrying about food, you're doing it wrong."

Any effect that has is probably pretty negligible, because I can think of any number of times that I acquired a weapon and got a two-hander when I was already using a shield at or near the "appropriate" skill level for it.

prozacelf wrote:Any effect that has is probably pretty negligible, because I can think of any number of times that I acquired a weapon and got a two-hander when I was already using a shield at or near the "appropriate" skill level for it.

This is how I feel too, at least for bucklers (which I use much more often than all the rest).

The reverse is also true: Oka will drop shields left and right even though you're currently wielding such a nice two-hander, or even carrying a collection of them.

Shields have always been good. Which shield type used for best effect depends on race and stat distribution. The main draw back being penalties to melee attacks early game, while the main benefit is blocking more attacks from early game threats. Shields benefit greatly from str/dex or str.

Lately, reflection made shields into a gimmick.

I nearly always use shields. I'll admit I don't know what all the Shields skill contributes to their usage, I just always assumed more was better for a higher SH rating. I also don't number crunch any of the other skills though, other than min delay with weapons now that that's actually displayed, so maybe they really are inefficient and I've been wasting my time. One thing I was disappointed to learn a while back was that shields don't do anything to mitigate bolt spells. Is this still the case?

evomer wrote:One thing I was disappointed to learn a while back was that shields don't do anything to mitigate bolt spells. Is this still the case?

Yes.

Shields work fine, they do make you harder to kill. They also make the game a little bit more boring if you rely on reposte or cleave to kill popcorn, because they will inflict less damage, but they make up for it if you find reflection and use it in places like Spider, Elf, Shoals and Vaults.

I find them very good in Spider, since orbs of destruction cannot be dodged, and the only way I found to explode them without running away is to hit them with another orb. They probably also are good for slow people, since they can't always get the positioning they'd like, and the shield gives them a bit of added defence. Shield efficiency actually decreases with each attack you take during that turn, however, so they actually work best in corridors and one-on-one fights.

Shtopit wrote:orbs of destruction cannot be dodged, and the only way I found to explode them without running away is to hit them with another orb

If you just want it to not hit you, summons are great. You probably don't want to do orb-on-orb collisions unless you want to invite the whole level over to come see you; IIRC that's one of the loudest sounds in the whole game.

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Making shields viable

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