Status Effects and Stabber Midgame

[kamickalo]

Hi everybody,

I'm pretty new at this, the farthest I've gotten a character was a VpEn of Ash who got down to the bottom floors of both Swamp and Orc.

This time I'm playing VpEn of Dith (if you can tell, VpEn is my favorite), and thinking about how to diversify now that I am done in the Lair. I've cleared all the floors in Lair except for the Death Yaks, and their resilience got me thinking about what to train next. I have literally no way to deal with Death Yaks, they are immune to all my hexes, and I assume many enemies in the future will be immune as well.

My first question is this: Are enemies that are immune to hexes still vulnerable to needles?? I got some points in Throwing from a scroll of experience, and I have a lot of different types of needles stashed. If resistant enemies like Death Yaks are still vulnerable to needles, I would consider training Throwing.

The way I see it, there are a few options for me at this stage:

0) Train throwing if needles are useful when hexes fall through

1) I have a Book of the Sky, and could learn Airstrike immediately. I have already trained Air Magic to level 7.0. Is Airstrike effective in fighting resistant enemies on par with a Death Yak, or even something stronger?

2) I am considering waiting to invest my spell levels until I find a better spellbook, and then I could train a different magic skill.

3) I have various wands and have trained Evocations to 7.7, but when I tried to use wands, they barely made a dent in the Death Yaks at all. I also have a Legendary deck of defense (although my panic buttons from Dith already seem nice) and an Ornate Deck of Changes that could benefit from training Evocations. Would it be preferable to train Evocations instead of Air Magic or waiting for another spellbook?

4) The only other spellbook I've found is a Fey Folio. should I try to pick up summoning??

Do I have any other options for taking out resistant enemies besides these?

Many Thanks!

My morgue file is as follows:

Spoiler: show

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16.2 (tiles) character file.

Rasputin the Covert (Vampire Enchanter)            Turns: 30147, Time: 04:23:41

Health: 108/110    AC:  7    Str:  8    XL:     14   Next: 6%
Magic:  25/25      EV: 20    Int: 19    God:    Dithmenos [******]
Gold:   860        SH:  5    Dex: 15    Spells: 3 memorised, 7 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis +     i - +4 dagger (vamp)
rCold  + + +     Clarity  .     y - +2 robe {rC+}
rNeg   + + +     SustAb   .     I - +0 buckler
rPois  +         Gourm    .     j - +0 helmet
rElec  .         Spirit   .     u - +0 cloak
rCorr  .         Warding  .     e - +0 pair of gloves
rMut   .         Stasis   +     (no boots)
MR     +....                    p - amulet of stasis
Stlth  ++++++++++               h - ring of protection from fire
                                q - ring of wizardry

@: regenerating slowly, wreathed by umbra, somewhat resistant to hostile
enchantments, uncannily stealthy
A: bottle blood, fangs 3, see invisible, unbreathing
a: Bat Form, Shadow Step, Shadow Form, Renounce Religion


You are on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Dithmenos.
Dithmenos is exalted by your worship.
You are near bloodless.

You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 19 of its levels.

You have collected 950 gold pieces.
You have spent 90 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 i - a +4 vampiric dagger (weapon)
Missiles
 M - 11 poisoned needles
Armour
 e - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
 j - a +0 helmet (worn)
 u - a +0 cloak (worn)
 y - a +2 robe of cold resistance (worn)
 I - a +0 buckler (worn)
Jewellery
 h - a ring of protection from fire (right hand)
 p - an amulet of stasis (around neck)
 q - a ring of wizardry (left hand)
 G - an uncursed amulet of guardian spirit
Magical devices
 r - a wand of teleportation (5)
 s - a wand of lightning (12)
 C - a wand of frost (27)
 E - a wand of magic darts
 F - a wand of paralysis (11)
Scrolls
 b - a scroll of magic mapping
 f - a scroll labeled QAURUO LITIMOU
 g - 4 scrolls of identify
 k - a scroll labeled CROUSHE FINNOX
 o - 5 scrolls of teleportation
 t - 5 scrolls of remove curse
 v - a scroll labeled UHUYQA GUMN
 A - a scroll of recharging
 B - a scroll labeled MOIQERE TICIHE
 D - a scroll of amnesia
 H - 2 scrolls of blinking
 J - 4 scrolls of immolation
 L - 2 scrolls of fear
Potions
 a - a potion of magic
 d - 28 potions of blood
 l - 9 potions of curing
 m - 4 potions of heal wounds
 n - 3 potions of agility
 w - a bubbling blue potion
 x - 2 potions of invisibility
 z - 2 potions of cancellation
 K - a potion of restore abilities
 N - 3 potions of might
 O - a potion of haste
Miscellaneous
 c - a legendary deck of defence {the Elixir}
 P - an ornate deck of changes {the Shadow}


   Skills:
 - Level 10.0 Fighting
 - Level 11.2 Short Blades
 - Level 3.9 Throwing
 - Level 3.9 Armour
 - Level 11.6 Dodging
 - Level 13.3 Stealth
 - Level 4.0 Shields
 - Level 5.2 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 2.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 8.2 Hexes
 - Level 7.0 Air Magic
 + Level 7.7 Evocations


You have 7 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Silence               Hex/Air        ####......   9%          5    ######.
b - Ensorcelled Hibernat  Hex/Ice        ###...       2%          2    ###....
d - Confuse               Hex            ####....     1%          3    ###....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (10/15)            Temple (1/1) D:5            Lair (8/8) D:10
  Swamp (0/5) Lair:3        Snake (0/5) Lair:4        Slime (0/6) Lair:6
   Orc: D:9-12     

Altars:
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Xom
The Shining One

Shops:
D:9 !

Annotations:
Lair:4 exclusion: oklob plant


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You heal slowly.
You can bottle blood from corpses.
You have razor-sharp teeth.
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
You can survive without breathing.


Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Rasputin, the Vampire Enchanter, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 3/3
   113 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
   159 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 16/19 MP: 2/4
   213 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Ensorcelled Hibernation
   527 | D:2      | Reached skill level 6 in Stealth
   698 | D:2      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
   699 | D:2      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
   700 | D:2      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
  1371 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 24/24 MP: 6/6
  1863 | D:2      | Noticed Robin
  1932 | D:2      | Killed Robin
  1932 | D:2      | Reached skill level 7 in Stealth
  2295 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 30/30 MP: 7/7
  2311 | D:3      | Learned a level 4 spell: Enslavement
  2344 | D:3      | Reached skill level 8 in Stealth
  2364 | D:3      | Noticed Natasha
  3280 | D:3      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  3994 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You can translocate small distances at will. [potion of mutation]
  3994 | D:3      | Gained mutation: You are somewhat resistant to further mutation. [potion of mutation]
  3996 | D:3      | Lost mutation: You are somewhat resistant to further mutation. [potion of cure mutation]
  3996 | D:3      | Lost mutation: You can translocate small distances at will. [potion of cure mutation]
  3997 | D:3      | Reached skill level 13 in Stealth
  3997 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Unarmed Combat
  3997 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 9/35 MP: 1/9
  4446 | D:4      | Noticed Edmund
  4808 | D:3      | Killed Natasha
  4808 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 41/41 MP: 7/10
  4841 | D:4      | Killed Edmund
  5472 | D:3      | Noticed Natasha
  5646 | D:3      | Killed Natasha
  6422 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 46/46 MP: 9/12
  7022 | D:4      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  7143 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Confuse
  7316 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  7467 | D:5      | Noticed a rust devil
  7503 | D:5      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  7505 | D:5      | Noticed Sigmund
  7527 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  7549 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Dithmenos the Shadowed
  7701 | D:5      | Killed Sigmund
  8367 | D:5      | Noticed an angel
  8492 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  8492 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 52/52 MP: 13/13
  8920 | D:6      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  9032 | D:6      | Found a runed door.
  9050 | D:6      | Found a runed door.
  9617 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Short Blades
  9839 | D:7      | Acquired Dithmenos' first power
  9839 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 57/57 MP: 11/14
 10700 | D:7      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
 12486 | D:8      | Noticed Dowan
 12552 | D:8      | Noticed Duvessa
 12556 | D:8      | Killed Dowan
 12617 | D:8      | Killed Duvessa
 13044 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 63/63 MP: 13/16
 13112 | D:9      | Acquired Dithmenos' second power
 13112 | D:9      | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 13172 | D:9      | Noticed Blork the orc
 13180 | D:9      | Killed Blork the orc
 13192 | D:9      | Found Pniageto's Distillery.
 13211 | D:9      | Bought a potion of curing for 30 gold pieces
 13211 | D:9      | Bought a potion of curing for 30 gold pieces
 13211 | D:9      | Bought a potion of curing for 30 gold pieces
 13635 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 13847 | D:10     | Noticed Grum
 15920 | D:10     | Killed Grum
 15920 | D:10     | Reached skill level 10 in Short Blades
 16029 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 16037 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 16037 | D:10     | Acquired Dithmenos' third power
 16037 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 68/68 MP: 11/17
 16052 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 16555 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 18017 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 5 spell: Silence
 18221 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 5 in Hexes
 18288 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
 19138 | Lair:2   | Acquired Dithmenos' fourth power
 19503 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 5 in Air Magic
 19681 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 19869 | Lair:3   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 74/74 MP: 9/18
 19937 | Lair:3   | Noticed Fannar
 19942 | Lair:3   | Killed Fannar
 20790 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
 21269 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 21941 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 22574 | Lair:4   | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 23640 | Lair:5   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 24228 | Lair:6   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 24230 | Lair:6   | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 24288 | Lair:6   | Killed an eight-headed hydra
 24288 | Lair:6   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 98/98 MP: 6/19
 26215 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 26350 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 26503 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
 27013 | Lair:5   | Killed a five-headed hydra
 27123 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 28161 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
 28683 | Lair:8   | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 29764 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 110/110 MP: 15/24


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Dagger            |   106 |   156 |   373 |   517 |   373 ||  1525
       Unarmed           |       |       |       |     3 |     2 ||     5
 Cast: Corona            |    10 |     7 |     1 |       |       ||    18
       Ensorcelled Hiber |    32 |    72 |   136 |   307 |   204 ||   751
       Enslavement       |       |     6 |     1 |       |       ||     7
       Confuse           |       |       |    26 |    46 |    13 ||    85
       Silence           |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
 Abil: End Transformatio |       |     2 |     5 |    14 |    10 ||    31
       Bat Form          |       |     2 |     5 |    14 |    10 ||    31
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
  Use: Scroll            |     7 |     3 |     5 |    15 |     6 ||    36
       Potion            |       |    12 |     5 |    13 |     9 ||    39
 Stab: Sleeping          |    31 |    59 |   114 |   211 |   121 ||   536
       Confused          |       |       |    10 |    14 |     2 ||    26
       Distracted        |       |       |       |     2 |       ||     2


[Reptisaurus]

First, yes train summoning, learn lightning spire because lightning spire is nuts.

Second, death yaks are not immune to your hexes, they're just very reistant. If you can isolate a single death yaks confuse (it should be around 11% success, which means you have a 1 in 9 shot) can kill them.... eventually. I'd probably use dazzling spray if limited to the enchanter starting book - it is more effective and does some damage, but blindness is less effective than confuse and it wears off fast. You just have to bat form/reset fight if your hexes don't connect. It's not particularly dangerous to kill death yaks with your starting enchanter book, especially as a vampire. It just takes a long time and is boring.

Spending all your MP on airstrike should kill them - stone arrow will (I believe) do equivalent damage for less MP if you learn that. Corpse rot is extremely effective if you can find a corpse. Of course the higher level spells will kill them, but you're probably not ready to learn tornado yet.

I am a huge fan of hexes https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21955) but killing death yaks with them is one of the most annoying things in the game.

[Reptisaurus]

Just read your morgue - OMG, learn dazzling spray. Next time have dazzling spray online by, like, D:5. It's a little wonky in targeting and it takes some practice, but it is your only direct damage spell (and it makes stabs possible to boot!) so you need it.

[kamickalo]

Oh, forgot to mention! I'm playing 0.16 so I think some of the spells might not line up.

[kamickalo]

Just read your morgue - OMG, learn dazzling spray. Next time have dazzling spray online by, like, D:5. It's a little wonky in targeting and it takes some practice, but it is your only direct damage spell (and it makes stabs possible to boot!) so you need it.

At this stage, do you think Airstrike would be more useful than Dazzling spray?

Also I just found a Book of Earth and a Book of Cantrips, I'd consider trying to learn Bolt of Magma / Iron shot, but Vampires' Conjurations aptitude is -3

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I've played a bunch of SpEns (without a win) a long time ago and I vaguely remember using Dazzling Spray to handle death yaks and such with some success. It's limited to monsters without SInv, because the dazzle effect is basically same as you being invisible to the dazzled monster(s). +Inv item or the spell works even better, of course.

More recently I've won with a FeEn, which is my favourite stabber build. Felids' stabby UC scales all the way to 15-runes with forms, although after Statue/Dragon Form the stabbing part becomes more of a nice extra. Pre forms, I've used Confusing Touch and/or Dazzling Spray to handle death yaks specifically, but i'm not actually sure if the former works with a dagger -- at least it works well enough with UC against higher MR monsters in the midgame. Low max HP stabbing matches against singled out death yaks are still very dangerous, a single hit from them mean one has to run away, but felids (and spriggans) are good at that.

I've never needle-stabbed so I can't comment on that.

[RBrandon]

I agree that dazzling spray would help this character. You probably want more spellpower for that and your hexes since it's currently pretty low. I don't think I would have trained Air Magic on this character (especially for just silence) but since you have it Airstrike might be a good pickup. You will likely run into the same problem of low spellpower without some training though.

Your spellcasting skill is very low. Investing some into spellcasting at this point will give useful gains, as the earlier skill levels take much less experience to attain.

I do not think Bolt of Magma or Iron Shot would be very good uses for your experience. Another quick tool for things you can't stab is Animate Skeleton from your Book of Cantrips. It will take little investment to use but it is extremely powerful.

Also I'm surprised no one has mentioned this but you don't actually have to kill the death yaks.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

IIRC, the probability of dazzling doesn't depend on spellpower, it's always the same chance vs monster HD. So for stabbing purposes, getting to low enough fail is enough. But with some spellpower it is quite useful for killing or at least weakening up to 3 dudes from distance.

[RBrandon]

The chance to dazzle does not depend on spellpower, but the non-negligible damage does. It also has a great effect on Confuse. Not being able to stab things is less of an issue if you can make them stabbable. Besides, I feel that 4 #s is pretty low for a VpEn who gets hexes extremely easily.

[Reptisaurus]

Just read your morgue - OMG, learn dazzling spray. Next time have dazzling spray online by, like, D:5. It's a little wonky in targeting and it takes some practice, but it is your only direct damage spell (and it makes stabs possible to boot!) so you need it.

At this stage, do you think Airstrike would be more useful than Dazzling spray?

Also I just found a Book of Earth and a Book of Cantrips, I'd consider trying to learn Bolt of Magma / Iron shot, but Vampires' Conjurations aptitude is -3

In my limited experience, airstrike isn't that great against non-flying creatures. It's smite targeted so you can use it to pick off monsters that you can't otherwise get at, but it's of limited utility in the lair. I think dazzling spray is a much better spell in general.

[TonberryJam]

Hexes is too low to have a chance against Death Yak's. The vamp dagger should in theory slowly kill the Death Yaks, but your AC is to low to make the feasible because they hit hard. Poison does work on Death Yaks, and you have bat form to kit.

[bel]

Hexes like confuse depend on monster's magic resistance. Death Yaks have very high MR, so it's hard to hex them.

Dazzling spray and needles depend on monster HD. Death Yaks have fairly high HD, but dazzling spray has a somewhat better chance to work than your normal hexes like confuse.

In general, you need to find an alternative way to deal with monsters having high MR. Gods can sometimes help here, but Dith enhances your strengths rather than complements them. You can try wands/other evocables, a strong weapon in melee, and other things like avoiding or running away from monsters. Vampires can do decently with summoning. Lightning Spire is very good - takes a bit of experience to set up good places for a spire - try to multizap enemies or zap a lot of them in a corridor. Summons can also distract monsters so you can get stabs in. Fen Folio has summon forest and summon hydra for later on. I would not bother with conjurations in the book of the Sky - Vp have a -3 apt in conjurations.

One option (not in this game, obviously) is to try VpEn of Kiku. It's a fairly strong combination. Vp have a good necromancy aptitude and Kiku helps cover for the cases where your hexes don't work reliably.

[NhorianScum]

There are plenty of ways to kill high Mr things on a stabber in the mid-lategame but by far the easiest option is to not take dith on En starts and train invo/necro. Or just play Ru.

EE is very stabby and actually enjoys dith and is generaly a stronger start .

[Psieye]

The Stabber style is a weird thing to learn. There are counterintuitive pitfalls, like "I should choose an As start to stab". Ultimately it boils down to having a Plan B and a Plan C for killdudes.

Plan A is to sneak up and kill (passwall makes this amazingly satisfying).
Plan B is to re-enable stabbing if the target woke up.
Plan C is some other killdudes when stabbing isn't an option.

With Earth magic stabbers, I find I switch gears for the rest of the floor because of Plan C's noise. Stab what I can, then put on a rock concert for the rest of the floor.

[prozacelf]

It looks like no one mentioned it here, unless I just skipped over it, but if you're committed to VpEn, taking Kiku and having Necromancy as your back-up plan is a pretty good way to go about it. A pain shortblade with a good enchantment will wreck most living things, and your necro spells can handle most other things, one way or another. On Vp I also like to train a long blade to be a bit better in melee when the pain dagger/quickblade/rapier won't work; the crosstraining will be fine for your short blade fighting too. SpEn of Kiku is also decent, even with a fairly low necro apt, and works off of more or less the same principle.

EDIT: Scrolling back up I see I did miss the Kiku suggestion. Makhleb is also a decent choice for VpEn, for bloodless healing and conjurations and summons both powered by invo.