The Tavern

Hi everyone, long time player, first time poster.

As of .19, how much of an effect do STR and DEX have on melee and ranged attacks? Is the effect of STR/DEX like a flat slaying bonus to damage and hit respectively, or is it multiplicative? Is it possible to make a general comparison of, say, a +6 ring of STR vs a +2 ring of slaying in terms of damage? (obviously STR has interactions with armor and other things, but I'm mostly just concerned about damage)

neuropathos wrote:Is the effect of STR/DEX like a flat slaying bonus to damage and hit respectively, or is it multiplicative?

Str is multiplicative, dex is flat. From some calculation I once did, it turned out that +10 str was roughly equivalent to +5 slaying when using a weapon with 15 base damage. I think my math was correct, but I'm not confident making any "rule of thumb" generalizations based on that.

Any idea how many DEX points equal the equivalent of a point of slaying in terms of accuracy?

asdu wrote:
neuropathos wrote:Is the effect of STR/DEX like a flat slaying bonus to damage and hit respectively, or is it multiplicative?

Str is multiplicative, dex is flat. From some calculation I once did, it turned out that +10 str was roughly equivalent to +5 slaying when using a weapon with 15 base damage. I think my math was correct, but I'm not confident making any "rule of thumb" generalizations based on that.

This depends on your strength, skills, etc.

neuropathos wrote:Any idea how many DEX points equal the equivalent of a point of slaying in terms of accuracy?

4

duvessa wrote:
asdu wrote:
neuropathos wrote:Is the effect of STR/DEX like a flat slaying bonus to damage and hit respectively, or is it multiplicative?

Str is multiplicative, dex is flat. From some calculation I once did, it turned out that +10 str was roughly equivalent to +5 slaying when using a weapon with 15 base damage. I think my math was correct, but I'm not confident making any "rule of thumb" generalizations based on that.
This depends on your strength, skills, etc.

Wait, aren't all the multiplicative bonuses applied to base damage independently of each other ("in parallel", so to speak)? Of course, even in that case, I agree that +10 isn't very meaningful without specifying what value the 10 was added to. That's why I refrained from making generalizations.

edit: nevermind, I checked: they're not independent of each other.

Does anyone know if STR affects ranged attack damage? And if do, does it affect each kind? (I could see it in realism terms affecting throwing but not crossbows, not that the game should aim for pure verisimilitude)

Ranged was made to be consistent with melee, so yeah, STR affects all ranged damage. Yes, even crossbows.

neuropathos wrote:Hi everyone, long time player, first time poster.

As of .19, how much of an effect do STR and DEX have on melee and ranged attacks?

Pretty sure this formula is still correct, except for the fact that only Str modifies weapon damage. Assuming it is, I find the following rules of thumb helpful:

At mid levels (13 base weapon damage, weapon and fighting skills in the low-to-mid teens), a point of Strength is worth 1/2 of a point of slaying.
At high levels (15 base weapon damage, weapon and fighting skills in the high teens), a point of Strength is worth 2/3 of a point of slaying.
In extreme levels (17 to 18 base damage weapon, weapon and fighting skills at 27), a point of Strength is worth a point of slaying.

Naturally, all these are approximations (albeit pretty close ones), and only take into account raw weapon damage (as opposed to slaying's effect on accuracy or Strength's effect on armor use). But it's worth keeping in mind, especially as a counterpoint to the (still?) common meme that non-casters should always prefer Dex to Str. (The truth is that Dex over 20 or so adds very little marginal EV, while Strength is increasingly significant at high levels.)

edit: embarrassingly, my arithmetic in the non-extreme cases was way off. :/

luckless wrote:
neuropathos wrote:Hi everyone, long time player, first time poster.

As of .19, how much of an effect do STR and DEX have on melee and ranged attacks?

Pretty sure this formula is still correct, except for the fact that only Str modifies weapon damage. Assuming it is, I find the following rules of thumb helpful:

In mid-level cases (13 base damage weapon like a broad axe/halberd/dire flail, weapon and fighting skill in the low-to-mid teens), a point of Strength is worth 1/4 of a point of slaying.
In high-end cases (15 base damage weapon, weapon and fighting skill in the high teens to low 20's), a point of Strength is worth half a point of slaying.
In extreme high-end cases (17 to 19 base damage weapon, weapon and fighting skill at 27), a point of Strength is worth a point of slaying.
Naturally, all these are approximations (albeit pretty close ones), and only take into account raw weapon damage (as opposed to slaying's effect on accuracy or Strength's effect on armor use). But it's worth keeping in mind, especially as a counterpoint to the (still?) common meme that non-casters should always prefer Dex to Str. (The truth is that Dex over 20 or so adds very little marginal EV, while Strength is increasingly significant at high levels.)

I would say that the "always take dex" advice is way outdated, i started taking str over dex fairly often when er was reformed, and even more so since dex was taken out of melee damage.

Siegurt wrote:
luckless wrote:
neuropathos wrote:Hi everyone, long time player, first time poster.

As of .19, how much of an effect do STR and DEX have on melee and ranged attacks?

Pretty sure this formula is still correct, except for the fact that only Str modifies weapon damage. Assuming it is, I find the following rules of thumb helpful:

In mid-level cases (13 base damage weapon like a broad axe/halberd/dire flail, weapon and fighting skill in the low-to-mid teens), a point of Strength is worth 1/4 of a point of slaying.
In high-end cases (15 base damage weapon, weapon and fighting skill in the high teens to low 20's), a point of Strength is worth half a point of slaying.
In extreme high-end cases (17 to 19 base damage weapon, weapon and fighting skill at 27), a point of Strength is worth a point of slaying.
Naturally, all these are approximations (albeit pretty close ones), and only take into account raw weapon damage (as opposed to slaying's effect on accuracy or Strength's effect on armor use). But it's worth keeping in mind, especially as a counterpoint to the (still?) common meme that non-casters should always prefer Dex to Str. (The truth is that Dex over 20 or so adds very little marginal EV, while Strength is increasingly significant at high levels.)

I would say that the "always take dex" advice is way outdated, i started taking str over dex fairly often when er was reformed, and even more so since dex was taken out of melee damage.

Yes I think that is bad advice now. There are certainly cases to prefer dex, but always taking it over Str is definitely bad advice especially when using heavier armor. With heavier armor you may actually wind up getting the same extra EV and do a fairly significant amount of extra damage.

I think another thing to note is Str, damage wise, may be the most advantageous on UC now. UC only has fighting as multiplier and has very high base to compensate so (without doing the math) 1 Str might be worth two points of slaying. Also Str will help your auxiliaries, although this would be more like the mid-level case for good auxiliaries like Op squeeze or offhand attacks.

The diference in a Fi vs a Mo start of UC with the 5 Str difference is probably much greater than many people take into account, add in the shield and UC Fi is doing considerably more damage and taking like half the damage (and has more hp).

I would just like to point out that very high Str (20+) is absolutely insane in terms of constriction damage for Na, regardless of the weapon you're using. I assume the case is the same for Op, but I am really terrible at Op so I can't confirm that.

Not that anyone really cares (though it may be helpful to the OP), but ftr my math was way off in the earlier post.

Also ftr, even in very early game a point of Str is usually worth 1/4 to 1/3 a point of slaying, so the added Str from races like Mi really does make a difference (especially since the numbers in general are so low).

Finally, for those (like me) who like precise breakpoints: with a 15 damage weapon, 20 weapon skill (i.e. enough to get that weapon to mindelay) and 18 fighting, a point of Strength adds exactly .35 raw expected damage, or 70% of a point of slaying.

prozacelf wrote:I would just like to point out that very high Str (20+) is absolutely insane in terms of constriction damage for Na, regardless of the weapon you're using. I assume the case is the same for Op, but I am really terrible at Op so I can't confirm that.

Its pretty good on Op I have seen constriction damage of 10-20 on 30+ str Op in statue form (not sure if bonus applies there probably not). Of course you can hit for over 100 damage as statuepode so I like constriction more for the fact that it makes it easier to hit. I am taking these numbers from a recent hellcrawl Op run, i.e. they are actual numbers but I wasn't paying a ton of attention so my reporting may be off.

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STR and DEX vs Slaying for Melee/Ranged

STR and DEX vs Slaying for Melee/Ranged

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Re: STR and DEX vs Slaying for Melee/Ranged

Re: STR and DEX vs Slaying for Melee/Ranged

Re: STR and DEX vs Slaying for Melee/Ranged

Re: STR and DEX vs Slaying for Melee/Ranged