crawl's "investment" character?

[removeelyvilon]

Is there a race/background/god combo(s) that is weak early but becomes super strong later on?

[Sar]

All of them?

[VeryAngryFelid]

Species: Na, Ds
Backgrounds: Hu, AE
Gods: Ru, Ash

[cerebovssquire]

How is Hu a bad background early on?

[VeryAngryFelid]

Short sword is a bad weapon, ammo is unreliable.

[Airwolf]

Op and Tm.

[cerebovssquire]

Short sword is a bad weapon, ammo is unreliable.

Ammo is, at the very least, reliable enough to get you through the most dangerous levels of the game and also far enough to replace your short sword.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Ammo is, at the very least, reliable enough to get you through the most dangerous levels of the game and also far enough to replace your short sword.

Sorry, I don't want to train Longbows alone and then find I have 0 arrows again.
I don't want to train 2 skills simultaneously.
Actually I don't want any XP in Longbows when I am at 0 arrows.

[severen]

Op and Tm.

Personally I think Tm is a terrible start for Op. Unlike many other species statue form stands up to blade hands much better for an Op you will almost certainly strictly prefer statue form over blade hands. Since you have to find staute form you may well do an easier/more reliable start like IE than transmuter. But Op statue form can become very strong later. But there is not point in starting as transmuter. This is different compared to something like various species playing Chei in that the stats of Chei let you wear heavy armor and still cast and have good EV so you can go blade hands and still have good defense so the Tr start makes sense. I know people have done OpTr and matured it out but still its a poor start for Op compared so of the mages.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

OpTm (or Op anything + UC) is a good candidate for a "start weak, become super strong later" character. UC octopodes experience maybe the biggest step up in power in the game after getting Statue Form reliably castable.

Tm background is certainly not terrible with an octopode. Sticks to Snakes is a good summoning spell, Beastly Appendage is an ok buff in every fight early on, Spider and Ice Forms are situationally useful. Blade Hands is still a great damage buff, but it isn't the game changer it is with many other species.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I thanked previous message though I disagree about Ice Form being situationally useful. It's a great spell in Lair and Swamp, OpTm is easier than Fi/Gl/Be/AK at this point.

[ZipZipskins]

Would just like to second the power of ice form, as it is my personal favourite spell in the Tm book.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Ice Form is a good spell, no doubt. I've used it heavily to fetch the Lair runes when Statue Form didn't drop, but I still prefer Blade Hands + rPois. So for me, "situationally useful" is when I have neither poison resistance nor Statue Form.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Blade Hands are superior for most species because the spell doesn't meld all gear but it does not help Op much of course.
I remember some fsims from last time when Ice Form and Blade Hands were compared for Op, they were pretty close.

[severen]

Blade Hands are superior for most species because the spell doesn't meld all gear but it does not help Op much of course.
I remember some fsims from last time when Ice Form and Blade Hands were compared for Op, they were pretty close.

Ice form does comparable damage to blade hands IMO, due to the freezing brand. If you are chei though or pumping str/dex in some way then blade hands starts distance it. Which you use as Op kind of depends you basically trade AC+HP for EV. Also Ice form is much better for hydras. On Op specifically I usually focus on Ice form and ignore blade on a Tm start. Partly because of level and partly because IF has AC.

Either way while they are usable and doable, I personally find IE to be a much easier and more reliable start. Ozo Armor is pretty darn big for Op. If you are lucky enough to have Changes + Frost books Ice Form + ozo is pretty solid (pun intended).

IMO if you can get Ozo armor + normal Op unarmed + shield + dodge this is actually superior to both blade hands and ice form. Not superior damage but good enough damage with UC about 12 and vastly super defense. Something like 14ac 25EV 15SH is doable with IE and very solid melee especailly with Ice beast support, of course you gotta find a shield, so its not something I say to "just do" but just as a ballpark sort of comparison. If you don't get this you always have throw icicle for an option.

OpIE with ozo armor usually winds up with better AC and better EV than Ice form. I just find it very hard to justify starting as Tm in comparison its only if you want to play that start. Stick to Snakes is a surprisingly good summon spell(can kill ogres early with it), but its jack shit compared to summon ice beast.

Ice beast normal UC Hit is certainly harder than Op normal UC hit. But the squeeze and tentacle slap auxiliaries are very substantial damage (especially since Tslap is 50% not 33% and scale with UC). Squeeze is one of the best aux attacks in the game. IE gives you a great summon and a very good early nuke(superior to EE), but it also gives the only reliable way to get AC early for an Op which allows to melee more. Critically IMO, the summons gives you enough time to actually mature out your defenses. The biggest problem melee Op have is that mid point after D2 where their great aux don't make up for getting hit hard. And even when you do have like 25EV 25SH (or better) the lack of AC can still get you killed against some stuff like ugly things post lair. Adding the Ozo armor on top of that helps alot and losing 25SH to blade hands or Ice form(loses something like 5+EV as well) just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Although it seems odd, IE makes it easier to mature out the melee side of things for Op. The basic stuff doesn't take that much skill invest and lets you be safe until you can get good defense going. Op UC is good enough that you don't need forms, what you need is defense and Tm actually has less defense compared to IE with even just a buckler. And anyway there is no way Ice Form can ever compete in damage with normal Op UC + Ice beasts all hiting at once.

[cerebovssquire]

Ammo is, at the very least, reliable enough to get you through the most dangerous levels of the game and also far enough to replace your short sword.

Sorry, I don't want to train Longbows alone and then find I have 0 arrows again.
I don't want to train 2 skills simultaneously.
Actually I don't want any XP in Longbows when I am at 0 arrows.

People can put their XP into Dodging or Fighting or whatever until they find their first quality melee weapon, if they must avoid that situation. I don't think that's the best way to play a Hu, but simply using your ranged weapon at starting skill for a few floors while training other things is still better than most melee starts. If you are using a melee weapon whenever it is safe to do so I also think the 0 arrows situation requires some bad luck regarding ammo drops.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Ice From gives 30% HP, Ozo Armour gives movement penalty. I wouldn't recommend casting Ozo without Ice Form or Chei because Op needs to run away often.
Chei is the worst god for Op no matter if Tm or not because Op cannot wear heavier armour (Str boost is mostly wasted), you are already likely to have high Dex from rings (there is a step down for Dex after 24) and specifically as Tm you don't need high Int either.

[VeryAngryFelid]

People can put their XP into Dodging or Fighting or whatever until they find their first quality melee weapon, if they must avoid that situation. I don't think that's the best way to play a Hu, but simply using your ranged weapon at starting skill for a few floors while training other things is still better than most melee starts. If you are using a melee weapon whenever it is safe to do so I also think the 0 arrows situation requires some bad luck regarding ammo drops.

Problem with low skill launchers is that it is a weak attack and will not allow you to kill those monsters who could be killed with Gl or Cj backgrounds. Hu start basically makes D:1 easier by making deeper floors (D:2-4) harder.

[VeryAngryFelid]

For the record, I am not going to argue that Tm is harder than IE, Op is not unique here

[removeelyvilon]

Ice From gives 30% HP, Ozo Armour gives movement penalty. I wouldn't recommend casting Ozo without Ice Form or Chei because Op needs to run away often.
Chei is the worst god for Op no matter if Tm or not because Op cannot wear heavier armour (Str boost is mostly wasted), you are already likely to have high Dex from rings (there is a step down for Dex after 24) and specifically as Tm you don't need high Int either.

Which god would you recommend?

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Ice From gives 30% HP, Ozo Armour gives movement penalty. I wouldn't recommend casting Ozo without Ice Form or Chei because Op needs to run away often.
Chei is the worst god for Op no matter if Tm or not because Op cannot wear heavier armour (Str boost is mostly wasted), you are already likely to have high Dex from rings (there is a step down for Dex after 24) and specifically as Tm you don't need high Int either.

Which god would you recommend?

I'd go with Okawaru. Heroism stays great for UC all the way up to 22 skill, and Finesse (and statform) shreds everything even in extended. Heroism also lets you get away with training Statue Form online ASAP.

For maximum "weak early, strong later" I'd choose Ash. If you don't find a hat, a buckler, jewellery, or uncursing scrolls, she might not do much until rune branches, but she'll eventually make it quick to pick up all the spells you need.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Which god would you recommend?

Same gods as for other species: Fedhas, Oka, Makhleb, Ru.

[Turukano]

OpTm (or Op anything + UC) is a good candidate for a "start weak, become super strong later" character. UC octopodes experience maybe the biggest step up in power in the game after getting Statue Form reliably castable.

For maximum "weak early, strong later" I'd choose Ash.

*******

Looking for a weak start
That later turns out to be smart?
Start octopode in a flash
Look for an altar of Ash
And a statuepode will be your reward.

[Airwolf]

Op and Tm.

Personally I think Tm is a terrible start for Op.

I meant OpXX and YYTm are weak early and strong late.

[severen]

Op and Tm.

Personally I think Tm is a terrible start for Op.

I meant OpXX and YYTm are weak early and strong late.

Oh sure yeah that is true, for the most part.

[asdu]

Which god would you recommend?

Same gods as for other species: Fedhas, Oka, Makhleb, Ru.

Why would you ever go Ru on a Tm? Maybe I'm too picky with sacrifices, but in my view Ru is even worse than Ash in the "won't do jack for a very long time" department. At least Ash has scrying early on.

[Hellmonk]

Which god would you recommend?

Same gods as for other species: Fedhas, Oka, Makhleb, Ru.

Why would you ever go Ru on a Tm? Maybe I'm too picky with sacrifices, but in my view Ru is even worse than Ash in the "won't do jack for a very long time" department. At least Ash has scrying early on.

You're definitely too picky imo. It's easy to have power leap after a couple sacs. I've gotten apocalypse as early as D5 (with a D2 altar) before; pre-lair apoc is doable often enough.

[severen]

Ice From gives 30% HP, Ozo Armour gives movement penalty. I wouldn't recommend casting Ozo without Ice Form or Chei because Op needs to run away often.
Chei is the worst god for Op no matter if Tm or not because Op cannot wear heavier armour (Str boost is mostly wasted), you are already likely to have high Dex from rings (there is a step down for Dex after 24) and specifically as Tm you don't need high Int either.

Yeah I currently have an un-won 15 runer Op of Chei and although I am playing it and its fine for the most part its not actually something I recommend to people specifically because you really are not fully leveraging all the advantages the stats give. And yeah as an IE with a complete focus on Int he still has like 22 str 20 dex and 45 int when you subtract the 15 chei. Those stats are pretty fine for anything you want to do.

Just as a simple comparison there is simply no way Chei's stats will add the kind of damage to statue form that that okawaru finesee adds. You would easily do 50% more damage as Oka (probably more) and the difference between 1.5 move and 3.0 move is ginormous.

Similarly although the 15 int is very helpful on an Op caster since Archmagi robes are not avialable, Mahkleb (or other) will regen HP and let you sublimate blood for massively more MP. Even with Max spellpower its still nice to have a way to get nice hefty chunk of MP back after casting a level 9 nuke. Chei with a staff of energy and 200 spellpower is probably not better than Mahkleb + sublimation and 150 spellpower. And that 50 extra SP is stepped down so heavily that chasing it is really punishing.

So you can basically get good enough stats on an Op eventually (although this eventually part is a kicker, its can be pretty spotty) and the key mechanical perks of certain gods really start to take over how Uber you get to be.

However all in all I don't think Op really max out as strongest species, but they probably have the largest gap from start to end. A high HP species might max out better, but they also start pretty nice; something like a stat juggled troll. An argument can be made that Naga is actually even more of a difference. Naga end up pretty strong since they have good ac and +20% hp. And starting with slow 2 is really hard. However its debateable that Naga start/mid is harder than Op since they can be pretty tanky and spit poison helps alot early. Its hard to compare, they are almost opposite in how they are hard. I suspect Naga may end up potentially stronger in the end though.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Why would you ever go Ru on a Tm? Maybe I'm too picky with sacrifices, but in my view Ru is even worse than Ash in the "won't do jack for a very long time" department. At least Ash has scrying early on.

Ru gives great panic buttons. Tm is the best class for sacrificing hand because your melee damage will still be amazing and you don't need rings that badly because you get lots of resists (rC+, rF++, rElec, rPois+++, rPois+, rN+) from transformations.

[removeelyvilon]

Some of you mentioned OpTm and Ash, but how do I boost UC with Ash?

[asdu]

Why would you ever go Ru on a Tm? Maybe I'm too picky with sacrifices, but in my view Ru is even worse than Ash in the "won't do jack for a very long time" department. At least Ash has scrying early on.

Ru gives great panic buttons. Tm is the best class for sacrificing hand because your melee damage will still be amazing and you don't need rings that badly because you get lots of resists (rC+, rF++, rElec, rPois+++, rPois+, rN+) from transformations.

You don't get panic buttons until *** which is two big sacrifices. If you're willing to take any two big sacrifices, then sure, you can probably reach that piety level faster than you could with a "normal" god, but chances are you'll give up something valuable to get there so early, and even then it's not as fast as getting to * with Oka or Fedhas. As for sac hand, to me the question is not whether it's good for your character (I'd do it on nearly anything), but whether you get it early enough.

Some of you mentioned OpTm and Ash, but how do I boost UC with Ash?

You don't.

[VeryAngryFelid]

You don't get panic buttons until *** which is two big sacrifices. If you're willing to take any two big sacrifices, then sure, you can probably reach that piety level faster than you could with a "normal" god, but chances are you'll give up something valuable to get there so early, and even then it's not as fast as getting to * with Oka or Fedhas.

Did you miss I put Oka and Fedhas in the same list, before Ru?

[asdu]

Well, that's my point: Oka and Fedhas obviously belong in that list, Ru doesn't, imo.
But then again, there's a guy here who claims that you can get apocalypse before lair "often enough", which is so very far from my experience with Ru that I think I might be missing something big.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Well, that's my point: Oka and Fedhas obviously belong in that list, Ru doesn't, imo.
But then again, there's a guy here who claims that you can get apocalypse before lair "often enough", which is so very far from my experience with Ru that I think I might be missing something big.

You are welcome to suggest better gods than Ru (after Fedhas, Oka and Makhleb).
Ru is fun/powerful and as wrote above it is easier to get high piety with Tm, I actually hope to get sacrifice hand early unlike with most other characters. Also you can sacrifice Armour (not for Op obviously), Courage (you have high melee damage), Evocations (not usable in some forms) more easily.
If you are taking minor sacrifices, then Ru is weak indeed but it is not unique for Tm.

[MainiacJoe]

Some of you mentioned OpTm and Ash, but how do I boost UC with Ash?

You don't.

But Ash does let you invest less XP in other skills to get them where you want them to be; that saved XP can be invested in UC.

[dracos369]

You are welcome to suggest better gods than Ru (after Fedhas, Oka and Makhleb).

Umm, Gozag? Gold distraction is always useful, Potion petition is a great panic button, extra jewellery is nice if you can afford it, and you can bribe your way trough Zot.
Also, the two new gods I presume are nice. I mean, you may not have cleaving or short-blade-stabs, but Uska's paralisys is still paralisys, and unkillable perma-allay is so OP that they had to give Hepl worshippers -10% HP.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Sorry, I couldn't suggest Gozag because I hate the god with passion for everyone except Sp and Mu and those are not great Tm. Even if the god is strong for Tm.

[Rast]

VEF, what do you hate about goz? Just the playstyle or does it seem weak to you or what?

[mattlistener]

VEF, what do you hate about goz? Just the playstyle or does it seem weak to you or what?

Given that VEF's exceptions were low-hunger species, I'd assume it's the food issue, and that he doesn't like the tradeoff of ordering a food shoppe if one isn't generated.

I haven't tried Gozag yet, what background is suited to him(?) other than stabbers? Kinda burned out on stabbers for the time being.


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[VeryAngryFelid]

VEF, what do you hate about goz? Just the playstyle or does it seem weak to you or what?

Playstyle. It encourages micromanagement on both strategy and tactical levels.

[mattlistener]

VEF, what do you hate about goz? Just the playstyle or does it seem weak to you or what?

Playstyle. It encourages micromanagement on both strategy and tactical levels.

It doesn't for Sp or Mu? Confused (probably because unfamiliar).

[VeryAngryFelid]

It doesn't for Sp or Mu? Confused (probably because unfamiliar).

It does not add extra hunger for autoexplore, autotravel or casting spells for those species.

[MainiacJoe]

It doesn't for Sp or Mu? Confused (probably because unfamiliar).

It does not add extra hunger for autoexplore, autotravel or casting spells for those species.

Arguably, Gozag shifts these costs from hunger to pseudo-piety. Gozag is like every species is a mummy, but casting spells costs piety instead of food, and you can find piety lying around on the floor.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Arguably, Gozag shifts these costs from hunger to pseudo-piety. Gozag is like every species is a mummy, but casting spells costs piety instead of food, and you can find piety lying around on the floor.

Or you can look at it in a different way: Gozag makes crawl the opposite of hellcrawl, i.e. making hunger much more important. No surprise I hate the god then.

[ZipZipskins]

Gozag is the fiddling with permafood god, and that's why I don't play Sp despite them being absurdly good- I want to think about Crawl food as little as possible. So I also don't play Gozag.