Dazzling Spray rocks over IMB.

[kuniqs]

EDIT: DISREGARD THAT, LEARNDB SUCKS COCKS

Here's why:

1) 1 mp cost less.
2) MUCH less noise.
3) Gains spellpower approximately half as fast.
4) Maxes out damage much faster.
5) At max damage deals almost as much damage as IMB (2d20 /it's 2d9 now/ vs 2d23).
6) Doesn't require point-blank to hit multible targets.
7) Stuns enemies and ignores MR to boot.

Disadvantages?

1) 1 less range.
2) 1 less accuracy.
3) Doubleschool, so advantage nr. 3 is moot more or less.

Problem, Iskenderun?
(FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...)

[VeryAngryFelid]

Yes, Dazzling Spray is OP. I find that all new spells/species/gods are OP. I believe devs stopped adding weak things in those categories, they add OP things and then sometimes nerf them a bit to have them not as OP as initially.

[Sar]

You think Fo and Qazlal are OP?

[VeryAngryFelid]

Yes

[Sar]

Okay.

[Siegurt]

Here's why:

1) 1 mp cost less.
2) MUCH less noise.
3) Gains spellpower approximately half as fast.
4) Maxes out damage much faster.
5) At max damage deals almost as much damage as IMB (2d20 vs 2d23).
6) Doesn't require point-blank to hit multible targets.
7) Stuns enemies and ignores MR to boot.

Disadvantages?

1) 1 less range.
2) Doubleschool (but this also means that Spellcasting counts double towards spellpower).

Problem, Iskenderun?
(FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...)

Some corrections:

It blinds, rather than stuns, creatures still act mostly normally, but have a penalty to hit and can be invis tier stabbed unless they have see invis.

IMB can hit multiple targets at range (it is just inconsistent about hitting multiple creatures)

Spellpower really doesn't "count as double towards spell power" spellcasting has the exact same contribution, it is just that conjuration and hexes each have half the contribution. I get what you mean, but phrasing it that way is slightly misleading.

"Gains spellpower about half as fast" is really a disadvantage (counteracted of course by the lower max spellpower and the earlier max damage)

Also: imb has a larger to hit than dazzling spray, it is often overlooked that imb is hella accurate (even over many other conjurations)

[VeryAngryFelid]

Also: imb has a larger to hit than dazzling spray, it is often overlooked that imb is hella accurate (even over many other conjurations)

It's easy to explain. Devs don't want to show 40% accuracy for Lightning Bolt, 60% for Dazzling Spray and 80% for IMB because it would lead to "decision paralysis" (which is called "decision-making" and "tactics" in other games).

[kuniqs]

Some corrections:
Spellcasting really doesn't "count as double towards spell power" spellcasting has the exact same contribution, it is just that conjuration and hexes each have half the contribution. I get what you mean, but phrasing it that way is slightly misleading.

Thanks, I tested it in wizard mode and what you said is true. What actually happens is that for multi-school spells Spellcasting brings down spell failure faster than for single-school ones, which is IMO an advantage considering that you probably want more MP early.

"Gains spellpower about half as fast" is really a disadvantage (counteracted of course by the lower max spellpower and the earlier max damage)

I said both DS and IMB have almost the same damage at max spellpower didn't I? How in this scenario "Gains spellpower about half as fast" is a disadvantage? IMB deals at most 6 damage more than DS.

Also: imb has a larger to hit than dazzling spray, it is often overlooked that imb is hella accurate (even over many other conjurations)

Yes, a whole 1 point of accuracy more than DS. Will DS survive this shattering fact?

Protip: if you're a conjurer who has better Hexes and/or Spellcasting aptitude than Conjurations (Spriggan, Vampire, Deep Elf, Formicid) then you're better off going for DS than IMB. By training Hexes you also train Fulminant Prism, which is indispensable to a Conjurer IMO.

[Siegurt]

Some corrections:
Spellcasting really doesn't "count as double towards spell power" spellcasting has the exact same contribution, it is just that conjuration and hexes each have half the contribution. I get what you mean, but phrasing it that way is slightly misleading.

Thanks, I tested it in wizard mode and what you said is true. What actually happens is that for multi-school spells Spellcasting brings down spell failure faster than for single-school ones, which is IMO an advantage considering that you probably want more MP early.

Yes, again, spellcasting itself has the same effect on success rate, it is just that the schools of multi school spells are worse. I am not sure how "spellcasting has the same effect, but other schools get worse" can really be looked at as an advantage.

To be clear: for multi-school spells, the *average* of all the schools is treated the same way as the *singular* spell school of a single-school spell, spellcasting has the same fixed effect regardless of how many schools the spell has. (Thereby becoming *relatively* more vaulable by virtue of each of the schools getting worse the more schools you add)

"Gains spellpower about half as fast" is really a disadvantage (counteracted of course by the lower max spellpower and the earlier max damage)

I said both DS and IMB have almost the same damage at max spellpower didn't I? How in this scenario "Gains spellpower about half as fast" is a disadvantage? IMB deals at most 6 damage more than DS.

Because gaining spellpower is a benefit, getting that benefit more slowly is a disadvantage. It is a *very small* disadvantage in this case, but it is a disadvantage, and shouldn't be listed as a "benefit"

Also: imb has a larger to hit than dazzling spray, it is often overlooked that imb is hella accurate (even over many other conjurations)

Yes, a whole 1 point of accuracy more than DS. Will DS survive this shattering fact?

I didnt say the difference was large, or that it negated your point at all, only that it was something that wasn't listed in imb's advantages. A minor accuracy benefit doesn't in any way detract from your point, it was just something that wasn't mentioned.

[CanOfWorms]

dazzling spray got nerfed to 2d9 damage at max spellpower recently (by which I mean since may) if you don't know the format of the commit differences the formula was changed from 2d(4+pow/8) to 2d(3+pow/8)

edit: okay I actually read through the dice code, dazzling spray never did 2d20 damage at max spellpower, it was always 2d10

[Sphara]

I was once stopped by a spectator who asked "Did you just two-shot a Tentacled Monstrosity with a Dazzling Spray?".

Had to tell him I did but most of the damage was done by Dithmenos's spell mimic.

[kuniqs]

dazzling spray got nerfed to 2d9 damage at max spellpower recently (by which I mean since may) if you don't know the format of the commit differences the formula was changed from 2d(4+pow/8) to 2d(3+pow/8)

edit: okay I actually read through the dice code, dazzling spray never did 2d20 damage at max spellpower, it was always 2d10

Cool. Turns out learndb is as reliable as the wiki

[TonberryJam]

I like spray to just blind ranged units, and to set up stab attacks for melee.

I like MB to blow up fulminant prisms against packs.

A lot of the conjurer spells excel at close range. MB blows up a lot when u shoot monsters next to you.

[Sar]

also turns out there's no noticeable difference in Crawl between 2d20 and 2d10