A consistent way to clear Vaults 5?

[Vajrapani]

Whenever I have to go down into V:5, I always have to hang on by the skin of my teeth to survive. I normally survive through a ton of luck and heavy consumable usage or I die most of the time, do people normally do a different rune branch,like Slime, or is there some trick I'm not getting? I can barely even do it on the easiest combo(MiBe)

[duvessa]

read this i guess

[dowan]

Yeah, read duvessa's write up, that's really good advice.

I mentioned in that thread about stairdancing vaults 5. I don't really do that anymore, while it's simple enough, it can lead to some really bad situations where you're surrounded on the V5 stairs with a warden locking them and a million enemies around.

If there is a down hatch on V4, I'll usually take that, after buffing up with everything available. (Agi, might, haste, regen, haste, maybe shroud of golubria, haste, other buffs I can think of, maybe haste...)

When you get down, magic mapping, try to walk to favorable terrain if it's nearby, otherwise get to the nearest defensible terrain and kill everything that comes. If it gets hairy, teleport and try again. Do not be afraid to teleport, do not be afraid to use consumables.

Once you've gotten a clear area, start working your way around that quadrant, leading anything back to the cleared area. Be careful, it's not uncommon to end up getting another big welcoming party as your noise attracts more monsters. Don't let your guard down after you manage to catch your breath the first time.

And just to be clear, don't do Vaults 5 until after you've cleared the depths and the lair rune branches. You don't want to do vault 5 immediately after clearing vaults 4, it's much too difficult at that point to be a good idea.

[Reptisaurus]

Discord absolutely destroys V:5. Uskayaw could be insanely effective.

Failing that - I'm sure that Duvessa's a better player than I am, but stairdancing works well for me. Just have a plan to deal with the things that can stop stairdancing - Vault Wardens can do it from range, tentacled monstrosities can grab you, theoeretically you might run into an anaconda zombie or wind drake shapeshifter or something (I don't know if either of these are actually possible...)*

Smiting is optima against anythingl, cloud spells are good, bolts can work against wardens. A crap-ton of summons will take down tentacle thing. A bunch of teleports + regen/trog's hand can keep you alive, usually, if things get really hairy.

* But I lost a string of felids to anaconda zombies in crypt. Tab, tab, tab run to the stairs "OH SHIT! I forgot about anaconda zombies!" die.

[ZipZipskins]

The problem with stair dancing is that the stair area in V:5 is designed to force you to fight a lot of monsters in awful terrain AND directly stop you from using the stairs

[Cimanyd]

do people normally do a different rune branch,like Slime

Slime and Abyss are just as much "third runes" as Vaults:5, and which one you do as your third rune depends on which you prefer and what your character is like. Maybe it's a little off topic, but I do think "don't" is the best advice for "how do I do V:5" in some games.

[duvessa]

i cannot think of any character where getting your 3rd rune from abyss is the safest option

[dowan]

I have found very stealthy characters who are deficient in offense tend to do a lot better in abyss than vaults.

It might be fair to say if the abyss rune is the safest option for your 3rd rune you've made a strategic mistake. Is picking a kobold assassin considered a strategic mistake?

I don't think I've ever done slime as a 3rd rune. I find TRJ challenging on characters who have cleared zot, nevermind characters who haven't even been there.

[Dioneo]

I've been going for the Abyssal rune quite a lot lately and I haven't had much problems getting through it; mostly with heavy melee characters. Not sure if it's ever "optimal" but if a noob like me can manage, then it probably isn't terribly unsafe either Though I probably wouldn't go there if I was starved for consumables or reliable means of escape.

I suppose abyss is also a bit of a no-brainer for characters worshiping Lugonu, since you can basically reset it for free whenever you feel like it.

[Sprucery]

For a stealthy spriggan of Ash, Abyss would probably be the safest 3rd rune choice.

[ydeve]

Slime 6 is rather easy if you know how to fight TRJ. Clearing V5 is not necessary for a third rune.

[Utis]

i cannot think of any character where getting your 3rd rune from abyss is the safest option

Maybe FoAK?

(Wow, in V:5 I always fought in the perimeter before. Thanks!)

[MainiacJoe]

Now that I always go for the five non-extended runes in every game, I always save silver for last. Abyss or Slimy third, typically depending on how stealthy I am and how much evocable teleportation I have, but I'm beginning to appreciate duvessa's caution re the Abyss.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Here are my rankings from easiest to hardest for normal speed non-Fo, non-undead

Assuming I have all resists:
1) M
2) A
3) V

All but rCorr:
1) A
2) M
3) V

Low MR:
1) A
2) V
3) M (confusing eyes can lead to unavoidable death)

Theoretical crawl without mutations:
1) A
2) M
3) V

As you can see I never rate Vaults as the easiest rune and I believe Abyss is an easy rune except for mutations, just don't go deeper than Abyss:3. Probably I underestimate Abyss but I don't remember dying there during last 2 years (when I intentionally enter Abyss of course).

[ZipZipskins]

I definitely think vaults is the easier rune than abyss. There are tons of layouts on v:5 once you map it that give you very potent terrain with which to smack enemies around. It's much more predictable than Abyss as well, by its very nature.

[stoneychips]

It's usually fighter-types I get to V5 with, for the sake of context.

I disagree with Duvessa somewhat about Immolation. Particularly if you have lots of fire resistance, I like to use it. It can be an opener while leaving the vault guards behind, or it can be a way to catch bigger things in a crowd. It does make lots of noise, but if you kill off the wave behind you and escape with minimal damage, you can generally afford to teleport away if absolutely necessary. Often you get a clean enough break to just keep defending the corridors early on, if you don't wait around too long. It does take some decisions about when to stay and burn "everything" possible, and when to get out of there. That's the harder part for me than the noise. Yes you can probably deal with vault guards individually later, but there are plenty of big things roaming around and letting the guards remain to patrol makes the map that much more crowded.

If you can get some Earth Magic, Lee's Rapid Deconstruction rocks (ahem, bad pun) on V5. There are lots of situations where you want to frag a caster type at range and it's easy to run out of other heavy bolt/cloud consumables at times. The walls are very hard and mobs are almost always approaching near one in the hallways. This also makes noise, but it helps you to make surgical attacks before stuff with nasty spells or abilities gets too close.

Clouds just rock, but there is a huge range of mobs around so pay close attention to which ones are going to resist or last much longer inside the clouds. It's easy to get confused and get a nasty surprise.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I definitely think vaults is the easier rune than abyss. There are tons of layouts on v:5 once you map it that give you very potent terrain with which to smack enemies around. It's much more predictable than Abyss as well, by its very nature.

There is no much room to run in Vault:5 (monsters everywhere) and you are not likely to be in safety even after teleport. In Abyss you can walk away from most monsters and then teleport lands you in safety more often than not.
I guess we are talking about different characters, I am talking about those who cannot stand in that good terrain and fight half of Vaults 5 non-stop, in my experience it is close to 90% characters (except those with vampiric weapon and Mahleb).

[njvack]

I would believe that V:5 is safer if you are good at Crawl tactics. You know what you'll find there, you know the terrain, it doesn't change. Abyss will very occasionally do something really unfair.

My tactics are not very good and so I have an easier time on Abyss, because the appalling things it does are pretty rare.

Lugonu helps with Abyss but she also helps with V:5.

[ZipZipskins]

I would believe that V:5 is safer if you are good at Crawl tactics. You know what you'll find there, you know the terrain, it doesn't change. Abyss will very occasionally do something really unfair.

This is really the crux of the matter: namely, that if you want to avoid unpredictability, instability, and risk, a randomly generated functionally infinite level with a wide variety of potential threats and non-threats and (for most characters) a clear lack of escape presents much more of those things than a semi-fixed level with threats you can anticipate.

[duvessa]

(Wow, in V:5 I always fought in the perimeter before. Thanks!)

This was often good before the quadrants were opened on all four corners. Now the quadrants usually have better terrain inside.

[CypherZel]

The best way to clear V5 is to pop some fire resistance and read them imol scrolls.

(I don't want to think about all the games I have lost by doing this)

[Nebukadnezar]

This is not a consistent way of finishing V5 but I wanted to share it:

HoGl of Uskayaw:
F+
N+++
rpois
Mr ++++

That's it for resists.
No relec, no rcorr, not even C+
No potions of resistance (still haven't seen them)
AC: 43
Do: 16
Sh: 6
broad axe of elec +0
Slaying bonus from items: +2
Fighting+Axe skill: 20

Hasted: 3 times
Invis: 4 times (cloak: 28%)
Stair dancing: a lot
Teleport/Blink/CBlink: 0
Grand finale: Titans, Storm Dragon, Vault warden (to be able to use stairs again)
Invo skill: 21
Feared: anything with attacks of cold, elec or rcorr
Most feared enemy: frost giant (cold bolt), tengus (hard to hit and they were the main source of acid attacks in this game)

[njvack]

One last thought on V:5 -vs- Abyss...

Getting better at Abyss is basically: Get better at walking away from everything, knowing when to teleport.

Getting better at V:5 is basically: Get better at identifying and using good terrain, managing noise, luring, fighting 1v1, deciding when to use consumables.

Both are really important! Spending a couple hours walking Abyss is a great way to internalize the awesome power of "basically everything is speed 10 and you don't need to fight very many monsters you don't want to".

Learning the tactics to safely clear V:5 is harder, but will make it a lot easier to deal with basically every other threatening encounter in the game.

[edgefigaro]

Getting better at Abyss is basically: Get better at walking away from everything, knowing when to teleport.

I call the abyss lesson threat assessment. Characters in the abyss will typically just walk away from everything until the area is too troublesome to continue walking away from, and then teleport. Knowing when the area is too troublesome to walk away from is the main skill.

Teleport is basically the only way to fully force a disengagement, and the zone is unique in this respect. Occasionally the zone blocks off a path behind you, but that isn't reliable. The threshold for risk is much different in the abyss as compared to somewhere else.

(I agree with what njvack says, just want to throw in a bit extra context)

[Psieye]

Basically, the V:5 opening ring of guards is bait. What will you do (or rather, how much noise will you make) when seeing a big surround formation?

Granted, when I'm feeling silly and want to have fun with no thoughts on optimising for a win, I'll worship Mak, read immolation, then read 2 torment scrolls. Then immediately go back to V:4 and never look back until like, I've punched Geryon in the Vestibule.

[njvack]

Wouldn't that leave them with inner flame and 25% health?

[Psieye]

Ah drat, yeah I wrote that wrong. I meant to write: "...2 torment scrolls. Watch the fireworks after popping one guard. As soon as all the guards are dead, go back to V:4..."

[zxc23]

V5 is my favourite floor in crawl, so I have a few things to say about it. The start of V5 is the hardest stage. The first goal is to establish some space where enemies can be fought quietly or under favourable circumstances. The second goal is to clear one of the quadrants (which expands the space to work with).

Stairdancing in V5 is really strong and something I tend to do most games. Wardens are only in view when you enter V5 in ~15% of games (I did some tests a while back but can't remember the stat too well). The idea is to do as much fighting as possible on V4 to minimise noise on V5. This can't be done with very fragile chars that might die within ~3 turns of being surrounded by vault guards. Wardens are a complication, but you can usually either deal with them using god abilities or simply kill them on the stairs. When no more enemies are visible from the stairs, simply wandering into one of the corridors is generally the next stage, and swinging around into the outer perimeter. If the stairs get sealed and/or very dangerous enemies start to appear, it can be time to teleport.

The other way to use the stairs is to have an ability or spell like shatter and to spam the hell out of it while standing on the staircase. Go up, rest when needed, and back down to continue the onslaught. This tends to be the easiest way of doing V5 that I've seen. If I can get shatter before depths, I'll usually do V5 before entering depths - that's how strong it is in V5. Brilliance may be needed at times, and engorging while on V4 is a must.

Wardens or other dangerous enemies can force a teleport away from the V5 stairs. Sometimes, a chain of teleports is necessary to find a good location. An ideal position is along the outer perimeter, slightly closer to one of the four corners. This area is usually the best place to fight because it has the lowest monster density and is only two squares wide. Enemies can be lured near the middle of the two openings of a quadrant and killed quietly. The quadrant corner openings can also be used tactically. Once the area around a corner of the map has been cleared, this space can be used as an ideal location to fight in and retreat to.

Another option is to blink, ?blink, or haste walk out of the V5 staircases and along one of the four corridors, or less often, into a quadrant with good terrain. When fighting in a quadrant before clearing part of the perimeter, it is usually necessary to spend several consumables to stay on top of things. Teleporting out needs to be done early, not at low HP.

A char with fire storm and MP channeling can travel along one of the four corridors leading from the stairs, as described above, and sit about halfway down the corridor. The corridor provides natural chokepoints on both sides for fire storm to do its work. Alternating fire storms between the two sides and channeling during the downtime can provide an extremely easy V5, killing many enemies from out of LOS and having the vortices block things. Space out the fire storms for MP efficiency and to keep a barrier of vortices and flame clouds up. Vehumet may be required (but going for fire storm without Vehumet is usually bad).

Magic mapping is good to use, the sooner the better. However, it is often not a big deal to skip mapping V5 as depths layouts are more scary and the V5 layout is predictable. Mapping V5 provides info on which quadrant to clear first.

I almost never use immolation in V5 (an exception can be made for having fun with shatter). It wakes everything up and only deals with the vault guards, which are some of the weakest enemies on the floor.

Getting marked is extremely bad. Cancelling may be required, or else a lot of random teleports and sometimes other consumables until the mark expires.

The hardest chars in V5 I find are formicids and stealthy stabber types (non-Kiku). Formicids should probably lean on god abilities, and something like a SpEn may be better off with the abyssal rune.

-----

Some webtiles examples on YT:

GrGl:
Stairdancing vs warden: https://youtu.be/W9hOm8Qwvys?t=150
Teleporting out of centre and fighting in the corner: https://youtu.be/W9hOm8Qwvys?t=215

DrFE:
Walking into corridor and fire storm / channel camping: https://youtu.be/SjqLlll_Qho?t=248

TrAM:
Stairdancing: https://youtu.be/h8EyNek0GP0?t=3138
Teleporting out of centre and fighting in the outer perimeter + corner: https://youtu.be/h8EyNek0GP0?t=3320

FeBe:
Fighting in the outer perimeter + corner: https://youtu.be/iMw-wBbD4Ac?t=229

[WingedEspeon]

I like to read tele before going down the stairs.

[xXxMemekMaestro69xXx]

not being bad