Spell Casting and Starving


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 55

Joined: Thursday, 20th October 2016, 18:32

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 00:35

Spell Casting and Starving

What's the optimal balance between spell casting skill and hunger? Everyone seems to suggest that spell casting should never be your highest skill yet to cast a level 5 spell it costs 400 hunger. Assuming that I'm a pretty normal 20ish intelligence that means I have around 20 levels in spell casting to cast it without hunger which doesn't seem reasonable. Does everyone just cast these higher level spells anyways?

Consider my current game,

Hypothetically I could be casting level 6 spells, but would that hunger eventually catch up to me? I could even memorize the Ball of Destruction which is level 7 and have -7% failure rate. That sounds nice but is it worth the hunger? (Also imagine for a moment I'm not playing as Gozag). I'm certianly not going to be casting these types of spells hunger free any time soon.

  Code:
1158511 the Devastator (Human Ice Elementalist)    Turns: 49440, Time: 03:29:06
 
Health: 108/108    AC: 13    Str: 10    XL:     16   Next: 43%
Magic:  34/34      EV: 15    Int: 21    God:    Gozag
Gold:   5567       SH:  0    Dex: 14    Spells: 10 memorised, 10 levels left
 
rFire  + . .      SeeInvis .    n - +8 whip "Snakebite" {curare, rPois}
rCold  + . .      Gourm    .    N - +2 robe {rF+}
rNeg   . . .      Faith    .    (no shield)
rPois  +          Spirit   .    P - +2 helmet
rElec  .          Reflect  .    y - +1 cloak
rCorr  .          Harm     .    d - +0 pair of gloves
MR     +....                    i - +2 pair of boots
Stlth  ++........               (no amulet)
                                Q - ring of protection from cold
                                (no ring)
 
@: no status effects
A: no striking features
a: Potion Petition, Call Merchant, Bribe Branch, Renounce Religion
 
 
You are on level 1 of the Orcish Mines.
You worship Gozag.
Gozag is greatly pleased with you.
You are not hungry.
 
You have visited 4 branches of the dungeon, and seen 23 of its levels.
 
You have collected 9479 gold pieces.
You have spent 2323 gold pieces at shops.
You have paid 1589 gold pieces to Gozag.
 
Inventory:
 
Hand Weapons
 e - a +4 dire flail of protection
 n - the +8 whip "Snakebite" (weapon) {curare, rPois}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It poisons the flesh of those it strikes.
   
   It protects you from poison.
 W - a mace of holy wrath
Armour
 d - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
 i - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
 y - a +1 cloak (worn)
 N - a +2 robe of fire resistance (worn)
 O - a +2 buckler of protection
 P - a +2 helmet (worn)
Jewellery
 D - an uncursed amulet of rage
 Q - a ring of protection from cold (right hand)
 S - a +2 ring of intelligence
 X - an uncursed ring of see invisible
Wands
 w - a wand of teleportation (4/9)
 B - a wand of digging (8/24)
 I - a wand of heal wounds (1/9)
 V - a wand of disintegration (3/24)
Scrolls
 a - 2 scrolls of identify
 f - a scroll of holy word
 g - 5 scrolls of teleportation
 m - 2 scrolls of blinking
 p - 3 scrolls of enchant weapon
 t - 4 scrolls of amnesia
 x - 8 scrolls of fog
 C - a scroll of recharging
 F - 10 scrolls of remove curse
 H - 4 scrolls of fear
 K - 2 scrolls of brand weapon
 M - a scroll of magic mapping
 U - 3 scrolls of enchant armour
Potions
 h - 8 potions of brilliance
 j - 6 potions of curing
 k - 2 smoky purple potions
 o - 6 potions of might
 r - 3 bubbling brown potions
 A - 3 potions of flight
 G - a potion of agility
 J - 4 potions of cure mutation
 R - 2 potions of invisibility
 Y - 2 potions of cancellation
 Z - a ruby potion
Books
 b - a book of Frost   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Freeze                       Ice                           1
    b - Throw Frost                  Conjuration/Ice               2
    c - Ozocubu's Armour             Charms/Ice                    3
    d - Throw Icicle                 Conjuration/Ice               4
    e - Summon Ice Beast             Ice/Summoning                 4
 q - a book of Ice   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Ice Form                     Ice/Transmutation             4
    b - Metabolic Englaciation       Hexes/Ice                     5
    c - Ozocubu's Refrigeration      Ice                           6
    d - Bolt of Cold                 Conjuration/Ice               6
    e - Freezing Cloud               Conjuration/Ice/Air           6
    f - Simulacrum                   Ice/Necromancy                6
 s - a book of Changes   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Beastly Appendage            Transmutation                 1
    b - Sticks to Snakes             Transmutation                 2
    c - Spider Form                  Transmutation/Poison          3
    d - Ice Form                     Ice/Transmutation             4
    e - Blade Hands                  Transmutation                 5
 L - a book of Flames   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Flame Tongue                 Conjuration/Fire              1
    b - Throw Flame                  Conjuration/Fire              2
    c - Conjure Flame                Conjuration/Fire              3
    d - Inner Flame                  Hexes/Fire                    3
    e - Sticky Flame                 Conjuration/Fire              4
    f - Fireball                     Conjuration/Fire              5
Comestibles
 c - 3 bread rations
 l - 13 meat rations
 z - 2 fruits
 E - 2 royal jellies
 T - 6 slices of pizza
 
 
   Skills:
 - Level 4.7 Fighting
 - Level 4.1 Maces & Flails
 - Level 5.5 Dodging
 - Level 2.0 Stealth
 + Level 14.9 Spellcasting
 - Level 15.6 Conjurations
 - Level 3.9 Summonings
 - Level 1.1 Fire Magic
 - Level 13.0 Ice Magic
 
 
You have 10 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:
 
 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Freeze                Ice            ####         1%          1    None
b - Throw Frost           Conj/Ice       ######       0%          2    None
c - Ozocubu's Armour      Chrm/Ice       #####...     1%          3    None
d - Throw Icicle          Conj/Ice       ######..     1%          4    None
e - Summon Ice Beast      Ice/Summ       ######..     1%          4    None
f - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      ######..     1%          3    None
g - Throw Flame           Conj/Fire      ######       1%          2    None
h - Sticky Flame          Conj/Fire      ######..     1%          4    None
i - Fireball              Conj/Fire      ######....   3%          5    ###....
j - Ozocubu's Refrigerat  Ice            ######....   3%          6    #####..
 
 
Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations
 
Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (1/1) D:4            Lair (6/6) D:9
 Shoals (0/4) Lair:4       Spider (0/4) Lair:4        Slime (0/5) Lair:5
    Orc (1/2) D:11         Vaults (0/5) D:14         Depths (0/5) D:15
 
Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Gozag
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
 
Shops:
D:6 *   D:11 :   D:13 !   D:15 :   Lair:2 %
 
Portals:
Ice Cave: Orc:1
 
Annotations:
D:3 Shadowablaze's ghost, amateur MiFi
D:8 Maurice
 
Message History
 
You see here a morningstar.
You hit the ogre. The ogre is poisoned.
The ogre is severely wounded.
The ogre closely misses you.
You hit the ogre. The ogre looks as sick as possible!
The ogre is almost dead.
You kill the ogre!
You now have 5532 gold pieces (gained 17).
You see here a giant club.
Things that are here:
a flail; a chain mail
You found a teleport trap!
There is an open door here.
You now have 5551 gold pieces (gained 19).
You now have 5567 gold pieces (gained 16).
There is an open door here.
You hear the quick crackling of a melting archway nearby.
Done exploring.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
You see here a mace.
 
       ###.###  ##.#####.##
        ##.##   #....##...#
        #...#  ##.....#..##
     ####'#+####.........#
  ####<#................##
 ##.#...#..........##...###
 #...#.####.....).........##
 ##..#.###......).....#....#
  #.............@.......#.##
  ##.#.............##......#
   ####....^..............##
    ##.......(.............#
    #....#................## ###
    ##...#...#...........#####.##
     ##..................###....#
      ##.....#............#....##
#########......#................#
 
 
There are no monsters in sight!
 
Vanquished Creatures
  A caustic shrike zombie (D:15)
  A great orb of eyes (D:9)
  A rakshasa (D:15)
  A vault guard (D:13)
  2 catoblepae (Lair:6)
  7 hydras
  A yaktaur captain (D:9)
  4 centaur warriors
  A tengu warrior (D:15)
  14 death yaks
  2 deep elf knights (D:9)
  A skeletal warrior (D:15)
  2 flayed ghosts
  3 deep elf magi
  7 hill giants
  A lindwurm (Lair:5)
  2 manticores
  2 necromancers
  4 ugly things
  A wolf spider (Lair:4)
  3 cyclopes
  A manticore (shapeshifter) (D:9)
  3 elephants
  6 black mambas
  A siren (Lair:4)
  2 gargoyles
  17 spiny frogs
  4 kobold demonologists
  2 freezing wraiths
  4 komodo dragons
  3 efreet
  2 ice devils (Orc:1)
  A guardian mummy (D:15)
  A harpy zombie (D:14)
  6 trolls
  A polar bear (Lair:5)
  2 two-headed ogres
  7 blink frogs
  A slime creature (D:9)
  A spriggan zombie (D:15)
  5 hornets
  8 hippogriffs
  2 deep troll skeletons (D:15)
  A shadow (D:11)
  5 basilisks
  2 water elementals (D:13)
  A basilisk (shapeshifter) (D:14)
  16 yaks
  2 wyverns
  3 wraiths
  Grum (D:8)
  3 vampire mosquitoes (D:13)
  2 hungry ghosts
  2 mottled dragons
  A warg (Orc:1)
  2 soldier ants (D:11)
  Duvessa (D:7)
  15 water moccasins
  6 orc warriors
  7 porcupines
  8 ice beasts
  A black bear (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  A hornet zombie (D:9)
  6 sky beasts
  A phantom (D:8)
  12 wolves
  3 necrophages
  3 ogres
  25 centaurs
  7 crocodiles
  A big kobold (D:10)
  30 bullfrogs
  Dowan (D:7)
  A wyvern skeleton (D:9)
  13 scorpions
  A killer bee (D:11)
  7 howler monkeys
  20 wights
  8 electric eels
  7 crimson imps
  A basilisk zombie (Lair:5)
  2 quasits
  A bullfrog zombie (D:6)
  7 centaur zombies
  7 centaur skeletons
  7 hounds
  4 bullfrog skeletons
  12 jellies
  9 orc priests
  14 orc wizards
  10 iguanas
  Terence (D:3)
  A hell rat (Lair:1)
  7 worker ants
  2 hound zombies
  A hound skeleton (D:8)
  Robin (D:3)
  A worker ant zombie (D:8)
  7 gnolls
  A howler monkey skeleton (D:8)
  31 adders
  A river rat (Lair:1)
  11 shadow imps
  23 oozes
  An adder skeleton (D:8)
  2 adder zombies (D:9)
  A dart slug (D:1)
  12 leopard geckos
  61 orcs
  12 bats
  6 giant cockroaches
  14 goblins
  8 hobgoblins
  13 jackals
  6 quokkas
  3 ball pythons
  7 frilled lizards
  15 kobolds
  A quokka zombie (D:8)
  15 rats
  A bush (Lair:2)
  2 fungi (Lair:2)
  7 plants (Lair:2)
716 creatures vanquished.
 
Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  Kirke (Lair:5)
  A hydra (Lair:1)
  A catoblepas (Lair:6)
  2 centaur warriors
  Nergalle (D:12)
  A necromancer (Lair:5)
  5 hill giants
  3 ugly things (D:14)
  A siren (Lair:4)
  7 elephants (Lair:6)
  2 spiny frogs (Lair:6)
  2 komodo dragons (Lair:4)
  2 merfolk (Lair:4)
  4 trolls
  18 blink frogs
  A wyvern (Lair:6)
  30 yaks
  4 hogs (Lair:5)
  A basilisk (Lair:6)
  2 water moccasins (Lair:6)
  6 orc warriors
  An ice beast (D:7)
  A sky beast (D:12)
  An eye of draining (D:12)
  5 wolves (Lair:2)
  4 centaurs
  2 big kobolds
  4 killer bees (D:11)
  A basilisk zombie (Lair:5)
  A crimson imp (D:7)
  2 hounds (D:12)
  13 jellies (Lair:5)
  2 orc priests
  4 orc wizards (Orc:1)
  A crocodile zombie (Lair:5)
  2 adders (Lair:1)
  12 orcs
  4 kobolds
  A fungus (Lair:6)
156 creatures vanquished.
 
Vanquished Creatures (others)
  An orc (D:13)
  A bush (Lair:2)
  30 fungi
  11 plants
  7 withered plants (D:15)
50 creatures vanquished.
 
Grand Total: 922 creatures vanquished
 
Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | 1158511 the Human Ice Elementalist began the quest for the
     Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 3/3
   302 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 16/19 MP: 0/5
   695 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 24/24 MP: 4/6
  1089 | D:2      | Learned a level 2 spell: Throw Frost
  1096 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Ozocubu's Armour
  1405 | D:2      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  1412 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 30/30 MP: 4/8
  2175 | D:3      | Noticed Robin
  2324 | D:3      | Killed Robin
  2324 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 32/35 MP: 2/9
  2865 | D:3      | Noticed Shadowablaze's ghost (amateur MiFi)
  2957 | D:3      | Reached skill level 2 in Conjurations
  3102 | D:3      | Noticed Terence
  3146 | D:3      | Killed Terence
  3146 | D:3      | Reached skill level 3 in Conjurations
  3397 | D:4      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  3419 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 41/41 MP: 8/10
  3448 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  3476 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  3486 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Gozag Ym Sagoz the Greedy
  3545 | D:4      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  3598 | D:4      | Learned a level 4 spell: Throw Icicle
  3698 | D:4      | Reached skill level 4 in Conjurations
  4082 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 38/46 MP: 12/12
  4192 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4856 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic
  5465 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 39/52 MP: 14/14
  5523 | D:5      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  5721 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  5916 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  6177 | D:4      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  6193 | D:4      | Learned a level 4 spell: Summon Ice Beast
  6399 | D:6      | Reached skill level 6 in Conjurations
  6483 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 50/57 MP: 11/17
  6632 | D:6      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  6764 | D:6      | Found Haesch's Assorted Antiques.
  6772 | D:6      | Bought a cabochon ring for 115 gold pieces
  6772 | D:6      | Bought 3 scrolls labeled QIARUAK BOSM for 69 gold pieces
  6772 | D:6      | Bought 3 scrolls labeled MUEDO KOUJIPP for 69 gold pieces
  7332 | D:7      | Reached skill level 7 in Conjurations
  7410 | D:7      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  7534 | D:7      | Noticed Duvessa
  7534 | D:7      | Noticed Dowan
  7609 | D:7      | Killed Duvessa
  7675 | D:7      | Noticed a hippogriff
  8090 | D:7      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  8222 | D:7      | Killed a hippogriff
  8361 | D:7      | Killed Dowan
  8436 | D:8      | Noticed a hippogriff
  8462 | D:7      | Killed a hippogriff
  8462 | D:7      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 34/63 MP: 15/20
  8639 | D:8      | Learned a level 2 spell: Throw Flame
  8655 | D:8      | Noticed Maurice
  8921 | D:6      | Reached skill level 8 in Conjurations
  9197 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Summonings
  9327 | D:8      | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal.
  9671 | D:8      | Noticed Grum
  9907 | D:8      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
 10193 | D:8      | Killed Grum
 10908 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 10990 | D:9      | Paralysed by a hornet for 2 turns
 11439 | D:9      | Paralysed by a hornet for 1 turns
 12169 | D:9      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
 12519 | D:9      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 60/68 MP: 7/24
 12896 | D:9      | Reached skill level 9 in Conjurations
 13618 | D:8      | Upgraded the game from 0.19-b1-5-gdc9fa9d to 0.19.0
 13922 | D:8      | Upgraded the game from 0.19.0 to 0.19.0-2-gae57169
 14581 | D:9      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
 14581 | D:9      | Found a faded altar of an unknown god.
 14592 | D:9      | Found a faded altar of an unknown god.
 14594 | D:9      | Found a faded altar of an unknown god.
 14595 | D:9      | Found a faded altar of an unknown god.
 15608 | D:9      | Noticed a necromancer
 15609 | D:9      | Noticed a deep elf knight
 15611 | D:9      | Noticed a yaktaur captain
 15850 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 15975 | D:10     | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
 15981 | D:10     | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
 16599 | D:9      | Noticed a purple ugly thing
 18188 | D:9      | Noticed a flayed ghost
 18195 | D:9      | Killed a flayed ghost
 19291 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 19403 | D:9      | Noticed a deep elf knight
 19875 | D:11     | Reached XP level 12. HP: 52/74 MP: 2/27
 20064 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 20492 | D:11     | Learned a level 4 spell: Sticky Flame
 21654 | D:12     | Noticed Nergalle
 21667 | D:12     | Killed Nergalle
 21816 | D:12     | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
 22800 | D:12     | Found Haerud Zoddu's Food Boutique.
 22805 | D:12     | Bought a bread ration for 60 gold pieces
 22805 | D:12     | Bought a meat ration for 60 gold pieces
 22805 | D:12     | Bought a slice of pizza for 18 gold pieces
 22805 | D:12     | Bought a beef jerky for 18 gold pieces
 22805 | D:12     | Bought a bread ration for 60 gold pieces
 22805 | D:12     | Bought a slice of pizza for 18 gold pieces
 22805 | D:12     | Bought a beef jerky for 18 gold pieces
 22805 | D:12     | Bought a bread ration for 60 gold pieces
 22805 | D:12     | Bought a meat ration for 60 gold pieces
 22805 | D:12     | Bought a royal jelly for 24 gold pieces
 23993 | D:13     | Reached XP level 13. HP: 38/87 MP: 5/30
 24351 | D:13     | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 24699 | D:13     | Noticed a centaur warrior
 25071 | D:12     | Reached skill level 11 in Conjurations
 25477 | D:13     | Killed a centaur warrior
 26234 | D:13     | Found Udadd's Distillery.
 26250 | D:13     | Bought a potion of curing for 33 gold pieces
 26250 | D:13     | Bought a potion of invisibility for 88 gold pieces
 26250 | D:13     | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 55 gold pieces
 26250 | D:13     | Bought a potion of curing for 33 gold pieces
 26905 | D:14     | Reached skill level 10 in Ice Magic
 27088 | D:14     | Learned a level 5 spell: Fireball
 27783 | D:14     | Noticed a vault guard
 27874 | D:14     | Noticed a centaur warrior
 27887 | D:14     | HP: 1/90 [centaur warrior/arrow (17)]
 27889 | D:14     | Killed a centaur warrior
 28460 | D:12     | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
 28587 | D:9      | Noticed an ice dragon
 29981 | Lair:1   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 29994 | Lair:1   | Killed a five-headed hydra
 29994 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 12 in Conjurations
 29994 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 85/96 MP: 12/31
 31129 | Lair:2   | Bought a bread ration for 50 gold pieces
 31129 | Lair:2   | Bought a royal jelly for 20 gold pieces
 31129 | Lair:2   | Bought a bread ration for 50 gold pieces
 31129 | Lair:2   | Bought a bread ration for 50 gold pieces
 31129 | Lair:2   | Bought a meat ration for 50 gold pieces
 31129 | Lair:2   | Bought a bread ration for 50 gold pieces
 31129 | Lair:2   | Bought a bread ration for 50 gold pieces
 31129 | Lair:2   | Bought a meat ration for 50 gold pieces
 31129 | Lair:2   | Bought a bread ration for 50 gold pieces
 31129 | Lair:2   | Bought a meat ration for 50 gold pieces
 31129 | Lair:2   | Bought a royal jelly for 20 gold pieces
 32464 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 13 in Conjurations
 34222 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 1 in Maces & Flails
 34467 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 34738 | Lair:4   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 35048 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 14 in Conjurations
 35901 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 36258 | Lair:5   | Noticed Kirke
 36277 | Lair:5   | Killed Kirke
 37238 | Lair:6   | Entered Level 6 of the Lair of Beasts
 37805 | Lair:6   | Reached XP level 15. HP: 88/101 MP: 15/32
 37915 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 15 in Conjurations
 39576 | D:11     | Bought a book of Ice for 975 gold pieces
 39593 | D:11     | Learned a level 6 spell: Ozocubu's Refrigeration
 40351 | D:14     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 40401 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 41324 | D:15     | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
 41973 | D:15     | Found Senauqoa's Book Boutique.
 43047 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 45069 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 16. HP: 108/108 MP: 2/33
 48843 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 48902 | Orc:1    | Found a frozen archway.
 
Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 |
---------------+-------------------------------------------------+-----
Spellcasting   |           3        4  5  7  9 11 13          14 | 14.9
Ice Magic      |           4        5  6  8          11    13    | 13.0
Conjurations   |              3  4     6  7  8 10    12 14 15    | 15.6
Summonings     |                             3                   |  3.9
Fighting       |                                   3  4          |  4.7
Dodging        |                                   4  5          |  5.5
Fire Magic     |                                      1          |  1.1
Maces & Flails |                                         4       |  4.1
Stealth        |                                                 |  2.0
 
Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 ||
total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-----
--
Melee: Hand axe          |    12 |     3 |       |       |       |       ||   
15
       Short sword       |       |    69 |   104 |   119 |       |       || 
       292
       Dire flail        |       |       |       |    21 |   107 |       || 
       128
       Whip              |       |       |       |       |   160 |    47 || 
       207
 Cast: Freeze            |    47 |    91 |   169 |   215 |   151 |     2 || 
 675
       Throw Frost       |     1 |     5 |    52 |   220 |   100 |     7 || 
       385
       Ozocubu's Armour  |       |       |     5 |    22 |    36 |    21 ||   
       84
       Summon Ice Beast  |       |       |     2 |    46 |   148 |    42 || 
       238
       Conjure Flame     |       |       |     5 |    23 |    11 |     2 ||   
       41
       Throw Flame       |       |       |       |   344 |   110 |     7 || 
       461
       Throw Icicle      |       |       |       |    82 |   343 |    92 || 
       517
       Sticky Flame      |       |       |       |     2 |    13 |     6 ||   
       21
       Fireball          |       |       |       |       |     7 |     6 ||   
       13
Invok: Call Merchant     |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |       ||   
2
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |    15 |     9 |     3 ||   
27
  Use: Scroll            |       |     3 |    11 |    17 |    10 |     2 ||   
  43
       Potion            |       |       |     2 |     4 |     3 |       ||   
       9
 Stab: Distracted        |       |       |       |       |     1 |     1 ||   
 2
  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |     6 |       |       |       |       ||   
  8
       Fruit             |       |     2 |     1 |     2 |       |       ||   
       5
       Bread ration      |       |       |     2 |     3 |    11 |     3 ||   
       19
       Pizza             |       |       |     2 |       |       |       ||   
       2
       Royal jelly       |       |       |     1 |    12 |     1 |       ||   
       14
       Meat ration       |       |       |       |     2 |     2 |       ||   
       4
       Beef jerky        |       |       |       |     2 |     4 |       ||   
       6
Armor: Robe              |    19 |    49 |    74 |   170 |   239 |    32 || 
583
Dodge: Dodged            |    42 |    79 |   188 |   508 |   540 |    62 ||
1419
Block: Buckler           |       |       |       |       |     2 |       ||   
2

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 00:45

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

You are with Gozag, it changes everything. Without Gozag you wouldn't care about spell hunger much in branches with chunks.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 00:49

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

Right, so how does my skilling look? Too much spell casting too soon?
Last edited by 1158511 on Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 00:52, edited 1 time in total.

Swamp Slogger

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Location: Germany

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 00:51

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

You could wield the staff of energy (sp?)
It reduces hunger cost down to 0

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 00:52

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

Staff of Energy.... do I have such a thing? I don't think i've ever found one
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Blades Runner

Posts: 561

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Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 00:53

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

Normally I don't worry about it. Gozag I train a lot more spellcasting and put a greater priority on intelligence. Primary-spellcaster of Gozag is annoying, so I tend not to play them.

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 00:55

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

Right so assuming this isn't Gozag, how does my skill progression look? Do i want to have spell casting as my highest skill or is that ludicrous? Whats the balance? maybe I'm not phrasing this well.
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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 01:33

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

You're fine, with or without Gozag. The only difference is that with Gozag, you just order more food, whereas with any other god you've got to butcher chunks.

The usual advice is to train spellcasting when you want to memorize more spells, and only worry about spell hunger when playing a Spriggan or worshiping Gozag. I'd honestly be more interested in more Fighting and Dodging if I were in your shoes, regardless; you have enough spellcasting for now, probably.

That said, you're worried too much about hunger. Buy more food when you need to eat more food, and train spellcasting so that your bread-and-butter spells are below four #s of hunger. I'd pick up Orb of Destruction for safety's sake -- it's sufficient for murdering nearly everything in the game -- but rely more on Fireball, Ice Beasts, and Icicle, which should be more than sufficient for taking care of Spider and Shoals.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 02:26

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

It is optimal to train a bit of spellcasting for spell power/success as 1 level in spellcasting is equivalent to 1/4 of a level in all the spell schools. Also, Spellcasting give more MP. These factors are a lot more relevent than hunger on non-gozag characters.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/playe ... speon.html. I started playing in 0.16.1
I achieved greatplayer in less than a year.
Remove food

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 02:30

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

I would hybridize, you have a nice weapon which does not take much to get to min delay. So I agree with archaeo, train fighting/dodging/maces.
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Zot Zealot

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Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 14:21

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

c - 3 bread rations
l - 13 meat rations
z - 2 fruits
E - 2 royal jellies
T - 6 slices of pizza


Ask yourself: do you think you will run out of food soon?

In the latter areas more and more monsters you can simply melee and they provide chunks (or gold for food shops in the case of gozag), so food usually accumulates rather than decreases.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 7th November 2016, 09:10

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

Typically if you are worried about spell hunger one of three things are true:

1. You are worrying for no reason, stop worrying and it will be fine.
2. You are overusing high level spells, spamming level 6 spells to kill wimpy critters that couldn't do damage to you is bad already, it leaves you with less mp than you should have, and creates noise that attracts more critters at once. You should be using melee or low level spells to kill those critters, so stop it, and you will be fine.
3. You have somehow finagled yourself into that weird corner case where you can successfully cast high level spells, but don't have the spellcasting for it, to get there you pretty much have to skip intervening spells, and tack on some wizardry items, probably some max mp items to unless you have evocation or invocation up the wazoo, this is really a weird one off case. And nearly all of the time you should have already trained some spellcasting for the sucess rate and or spell power, but if you do find yourself in this weird corner case, by all means get out of it and train some spellcasting.

In terms of how much is appropriate, i usually find that when i follow the "train spellcasting when you need more slots" when i an using spells as my primary offense, my spellcasting is roughly 60% of my highest level school, and that works out fine for me, but it isn't something that i stress out over.

Do not make "cast all my spells hungerlessly" a goal. Crawl is about killing things and avoiding killing things, it is not a food resource management game, lack of food is just a warning sign that you went off the deep end into crazy land somewhere, take it as an invitation to join us back in sane gameplay land.
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Post Wednesday, 9th November 2016, 06:27

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

When I cast, I prefer to cast as much as possible. Even with one # of hunger cost my casters are always hungry, and I love to save perma food extended or when starving pops up.

Starting from level 1 I would reduce the hunger cost to nothing, first. Second, I would bring the spell power two ## short of max, except for, level one spells or low powered spells I will max, I find upto 5# easy to max. Third, I move onto the next spell and bring it to castable. Then I start the process over.

Example:

level 1 spell - Zero Hunger > Max Spell Power
level 2 spell - Castable > Zero Hunger > Max Spell Power or 2# short
level 3 spell - Castable > Zero Hunger > Max Spell Power or 2# short

Conclusion,
Going pure caster is pretty easy until u hit Lair and beyond. Then, you really need ways to keep monster off adjacent tiles. Hunger is fun to remove. Training spell casting this way always gives u enough spell slots for when u need them, by the time you finish training your last spell and have the next one ready to go!

*edit* I leave some spells not max because it takes more time to get the spells levels maxed, and it's important to learn all your starters spells fast until you get another good book.

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Post Wednesday, 9th November 2016, 07:20

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

TonberryJam wrote:When I cast, I prefer to cast as much as possible. Even with one # of hunger cost my casters are always hungry, and I love to save perma food extended or when starving pops up.

Starting from level 1 I would reduce the hunger cost to nothing, first. Second, I would bring the spell power two ## short of max, except for, level one spells or low powered spells I will max, I find upto 5# easy to max. Third, I move onto the next spell and bring it to castable. Then I start the process over.

Example:

level 1 spell - Zero Hunger > Max Spell Power
level 2 spell - Castable > Zero Hunger > Max Spell Power or 2# short
level 3 spell - Castable > Zero Hunger > Max Spell Power or 2# short

Conclusion,
Going pure caster is pretty easy until u hit Lair and beyond. Then, you really need ways to keep monster off adjacent tiles. Hunger is fun to remove. Training spell casting this way always gives u enough spell slots for when u need them, by the time you finish training your last spell and have the next one ready to go!

*edit* I leave some spells not max because it takes more time to get the spells levels maxed, and it's important to learn all your starters spells fast until you get another good book.


Are these rules based on anything? For example, a single # of spell hunger can be easily ignored (it's 1-20 satiation points, you can cast the spell 250-5000 times for the cost of a single ration).
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Post Wednesday, 9th November 2016, 09:48

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

Plus trying to increase spellpower of level 5+(or even 4) spells just pumping their schools after reaching the desirable spell success rate is pretty much terrible if not totally impossible
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 9th November 2016, 11:22

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

Really? I always thought it to be an okay idea...

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 9th November 2016, 14:41

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

I am lazy to do actual calculations but I tend to agree with nago, those spell power step downs make other skills more efficient. You often run into double step down (raw spell power 150+) when you reach high level spell failure rate 1% especially if you have spell power enchancers and no wizardry.
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Post Wednesday, 9th November 2016, 15:03

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

Pretty much what VeryAngryFelid said, I've never made calculations about that but from my experience with medium\low int casters, I've got the strong impression that the stepdowns make very sub-optimal to pump magic in comparison of other skills which provide much better immediate results; this because despite the indication of spellpower ingame being pretty much awful, usually I've seen that going over a certain threshold requires a fuckload amount of training or is just impossible (at least with average int)
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 9th November 2016, 15:16

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

Ok, some calculations, based on http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Sandman25/m ... 124111.txt.

Level 9.6(13.8) Necromancy
Level 10.6(14.7) Conjurations
Level 17.0(16.9) Spellcasting
Bolt of Draining Conj/Necr #######... 1% 5 None
Int 33

One wizardry, no spell power enchancers
Raw spell power: (16.9/2 + 2*(14.7+16.9)/2) * 33/10=132
Spell power after step down: 50+(132-50)/2=91
Damage from Bolt of draining: 4d(3.75+Power*3/20) = 4d(3.75+91*3/20)=4d17.4

Now what damage I would have with say Conjurations 20 and Necromancy 20?
Raw spell power: (16.9/2 + 2*(20+20)/2) * 33/10=164.8
Spell power after step down: 50+50+(164.8-150)/4=104
Damage from Bolt of draining: 4d(3.75+104*3/20) = 4d(3.75+91*3/20)=4d19.3

So I would train Conjurations from 14.7 to 20 and Necromancy from 13.8 to 20 just to increase my damage by 11% and that's with just a single step down and without spell power ecnhancers.

For single school spells situation is a bit better but then we have triple AC for LRD, weird mechanic or OTR and huge investment for Tornado/Shatter so the only potentially good spell is Airstrike but then I don't think I understand its damage formula to recommend anything ;)

Edit. That's why I often disagree with guys who tell to undertrain spellcasting, spellcasting should be higher than magic schools for characters with level 5-6 spells because it gives MP and reduces spell hunger.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 10th November 2016, 06:46

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

I always found past 5# or 6# of spell power to be too demanding in costs for anything except pure casters. Can be easier with a God's assistance.

Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 10th November 2016, 16:30

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

If you have ever starved to death, you may need to train more spellcasting. If you have never starved to death, try training less spellcasting. Don't train more spellcasting because "on no I only have 6 rations left".

More seriously though, I try to keep the hunger costs of my frequently-used spells below like ######. And of course hybridise, so you don't have to cast those frequently-used spells on total junk monsters you could trivially tab through.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 10th November 2016, 16:40

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

amalloy wrote:If you have ever starved to death, you may need to train more spellcasting. If you have never starved to death, try training less spellcasting. Don't train more spellcasting because "on no I only have 6 rations left".


Is it how devs see smart play? I realize it is not an empire-building game but maybe we should think about future sometimes? Learning from experience is the worst feature of design philosophy of roguelikes IMHO, I am glad crawl is being improved in this regard with all those monster spell lists, AC/EV/MR/average HP etc.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 10th November 2016, 19:45

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

You've got to stop extrapolating one person into a whole group of people.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Learning from experience is the worst

Football is my least favorite part of Madden 2015.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 10th November 2016, 19:52

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

Lasty wrote:You've got to stop extrapolating one person into a whole group of people.


I've seen it mentioned by multiple devs. For example, you were suggesting to try different weapons to see which one is better. Unfortunately it does not work because there are no monsters who have stats of orbs of fire but are harmless for experimenting.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Learning from experience is the worst

Football is my least favorite part of Madden 2015.


I hope you realize I am unable to understand this part of your message for multiple reasons ;)
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 11th November 2016, 06:58

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I hope you realize I am unable to understand this part of your message for multiple reasons ;)


the joke is learning from experience and roguelikes are love and marriage, love and marriage, go together like a horse and carriage, this I tell you brother, you can't have one without the other

which is to say that there hypothetically are many people who play roguelikes who enjoy diving into a new one unspoiled and trying to learn its idiosyncracies through trial and error, and indeed consider doing so essential to the very genre itself

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 11th November 2016, 07:16

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

ZipZipskins wrote:which is to say that there hypothetically are many people who play roguelikes who enjoy diving into a new one unspoiled and trying to learn its idiosyncracies through trial and error, and indeed consider doing so essential to the very genre itself


I don't mind having a new option "hide_info" which allows to hide AC/EV bar, average HP, monster spells, weapon base damage, weapon delay, weapon accuracy, weapon enchantment, weapon brand etc.
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Post Friday, 11th November 2016, 07:17

Re: Spell Casting and Starving

I also don't mind that

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