The Tavern

kuniqs wrote:Demigod's shtick (I suspect) is supposed to be adaptation to whatever equipment they find. It doesn't work in practice because of the bad aptitudes. If Demigods had +1 in all skills then I could believe it. If there's no practical difference between -+1 apts, then giving Demigods +1 apts all across the board should not change the balance of power.

About 'adaptation' - because you're not guaranteed anything, almost every Demigod game follows the same pattern: train Fighting and Dodging constantly until level 20-22, train Staves so you have greater chance of acquiring one later (or you'll find one sooner or later), train Evocations so you can take advantage of one of the zillion stupid magic items and wands and train Armour / spells skills depending on whenever you'll find a good heavier armour or good spellbooks. Raise Dex to 20-24. Put rest into Str/Int depending on what spells you find. Eventually get a fire dragon armour and enchant it.

Maybe some of you like playing characters which are basically the same.

One reason I think book backgrounds are preferable for Dg's is that, for other races, your god provides a lot more relative value to a warrior/warrior-mage than it does to a straight mage, unless you are using vehumet, sif, ash, or maybe Kiku. Think about it:

Ash: Very weak early on, but most helpful to characters starting with a book
Beogh: Very useful for warriors w/ polearms. I don't think you can fire through your orc followers.
Chei: Best with heavily armored characters. Retreating is too important on a mage, on a warrior you can simply tab everything provided you don't randomly die on D:6 or whatever.
Dith: He is bad in general, maybe provides a bit more value to mages due to shadow-casting but I think this is basically a meme.
Ely: Probably best with warrior characters.
Fedhas: Good for everyone. Firing through plants is useful for mages, but sunlight is also useful for warriors who have poor accuracy in the early game.
Gozag: Much more useful for warriors to fill out armor slots and power through dangerous, fast enemies.
Hep: I tried him with an AE and a Battlemage aly, and it was pretty bad compared to a Gl with a hexer ally. Maybe the hexer is just much better.
Jiyva: Slimify is most useful for warriors.
Kiku: Useful for everyone, characters with higher starting int will probably get more out of his spellbooks though. Meleeing alongside zombie allies is useful, with a pain weapon. I think he's especially good for warrior-mage backgrounds.
Lugonu: Not really applicable since AK is basically a melee start.
Makhleb: The HP restoration is most useful for warriors.
Nemelex: Good for everyone, but mage characters already have ranged attacks, and fighting alongside summons is better than sitting behind them if you can do it.
Oka: Obviously better for warriors
Qaz: Worse than nothing, but less bad for warriors.
Ru: I don't like to play him that much, but you can get a decent amount of piety by sacrificing magic schools for little real loss on your part.
Trog: Nothing needs to be said here.
Usk: I can't see how this would be useful to a conjurer.
Yred: I don't remember if you can shoot through your allies with him. See what I wrote about Kiku.
TSO, Zin: Nearly useless for everyone outside of extended.

As a Demigod you obviously can't worship so book backgrounds will make it easier for you to get through the early game and lair.

TSO is actualy good in a 3 rune game once you get enough piety for angelic warriors. The halo is also slightly useful with terrible early game accuracy. He seems kinda like ash to me in that he takes a long time to get your piety up but is rather strong once you hit ******

Chei is best for hybrids like Tm or Sk IMHO. They take advantage of all 3 stats.

I think chei is best for stuff like Fi or Gl because you can survive the low piety chei worship and then converge with something like Tm or Sk.

I think Tm/Sk are very similar in power to Fi/Gl at low piety unless you are "lucky" to find D:1 Chei.

OK, I analysed some more Dg morgues and it seems they seem easy enough played as a battlemage, who has guaranteed spells strong enough to get first 2 runes. Non-book Dg who doesn't find books before Temple means lots of running away, which is antithesis of fun for me.

The problem of -1 to everything is that Dg starts weakened at the time where good attributes don't matter, and it's frustrating. Is it really such a buff to give them 0 aptitudes in all skills?

except that's the time where good attributes matter the most

kuniqs wrote:The problem of -1 to everything is that Dg starts weakened at the time where good attributes don't matter, and it's frustrating. Is it really such a buff to give them 0 aptitudes in all skills?

If by "starts" you mean that on turn 1 they're weaker than other races, this isn't true, because their higher stats makes them much better than most races, at least with book backgrounds.
In other words, their int gives them better spell success/power than most other combo, their str/dex higher ac/ev, their mp/hp apt better relative stats.
This remains true for most of early/mid game; from my experience, they have a period between mid lair and Vaults when they fall back power wise to powerful combo because of Godless gimmick and bad experience apt. (to be clear, they are still better than many races, but they feel underpowered to powerful ones like HO or Dr)
Later with experience pinatas everywhere in depths they start to be among the strongest races again

tabstorm wrote:TSO, Zin: Nearly useless for everyone outside of extended.

WingedEspeon wrote:TSO is actualy good in a 3 rune game once you get enough piety for angelic warriors. The halo is also slightly useful with terrible early game accuracy. He seems kinda like ash to me in that he takes a long time to get your piety up but is rather strong once you hit ******

Zin is also quite useful if you can train a lot of invocations (hill orc, formicid). Early you can recite at everything intelligent* and then hit them with a melee weapon; later once you hit *****. you get a button you can press to not die, and not dying is generally useful.

That's what I think is most useful, but there's also the might+agility+brilliance that's as spammable as Heroism, the imprisonment I never remember exists, and the mutation resistance is still nice in a 3-rune game even if you may not need it.

As for the actual purpose of tabstorm's post, I've never tried a Zin caster but it seems like the lower amount of food would discourage heavy use of high-level spells, but Vitalization's int boost would be great for high-level spells, letting you put more skilling into invo instead of magic. A HOFE^Zin sounds good, even though it might have to buy from food shops if you want to Fire Storm things.

*I recommend doing Orc before Lair with this strategy; you can recite to everything in Orc and nothing in Lair

tabstorm wrote:Dith: He is bad in general

One-shotting OoFs is not bad. Have you played Dith?

Yred: I don't remember if you can shoot through your allies with him.

No, except bolts of draining/venom.

I have, he is pretty bad if you are not a SpEn imo. I guess Dith is a little better now that you can't cheese Zot:5 as easily.

tabstorm wrote:I have, he is pretty bad if you are not a SpEn imo. I guess Dith is a little better now that you can't cheese Zot:5 as easily.

Bonuses to weapon and single target spell damage, an accuracy penalty for monsters, minimal investment in short blades trivializes some nasty fights while you're sneaking around in fire dragon(!!) armor... Plus auto-fog when you get shot by a certain amount of damage, and a "get out of death free" button that's almost as good as Zin's.....

Not seeing what's "pretty bad" here.

Reptisaurus wrote:Not seeing what's "pretty bad" here.

Obviously it is not great for Mi in crystal plate armour.

You still got the bonus to damage and monsters have negative accuracy, fog for protection from missiles, a really good panic button and, with shadow step, you might even be able to get a stab or two in!

If missile weapons are your primary offense Dith could be annoying, and I really like conjure/sticky flame on melee types. But I think dith is a pretty good to great God unless you're a conjurer who finds a book of fire early or something.

Dith is really good if missil weapons are your primary damage.

WingedEspeon wrote:Dith is really good if missil weapons are your primary damage.

I've never actually tried it. I figure that bleed smoke would block YOUR attacks a fair amount of the time.

Reptisaurus wrote:
WingedEspeon wrote:Dith is really good if missil weapons are your primary damage.

I've never actually tried it. I figure that bleed smoke would block YOUR attacks a fair amount of the time.

you can just reatreat until the smoke clears. Meanwhile doing 1.5 times damage at max piety is good.

WingedEspeon wrote:
Reptisaurus wrote:
WingedEspeon wrote:Dith is really good if missil weapons are your primary damage.

I've never actually tried it. I figure that bleed smoke would block YOUR attacks a fair amount of the time.

you can just reatreat until the smoke clears. Meanwhile doing 1.5 times damage at max piety is good.

Yeah, and most of the time you shouldn't be taking so much damage that you bleed smoke. Dith is great for ranged.

Dithmenos turns Magic Dart into a LOS-range Stone Arrow 50% of the time.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
kuniqs wrote:This is the worst reply I have ever heard. Perhaps your argument here (for a lack of a better word) would be more compelling if you, dunno, posted winning Dg morgues with better strategy, or wrote me what a better strategy is?

That reply has many thanks (mine included) so obviously it was not a bad reply.

That's not how it works... If thanks indicated usefulness of posts then twelwe is one of the most useful posters here and pizza tornado is the best spell.

dowan wrote:That's not how it works... If thanks indicated usefulness of posts then twelwe is one of the most useful posters here and pizza tornado is the best spell.

This is how it works. When a poster corrects a bad advice, many forum members thank the message instead of replying "Yes, I agree with that correction". It is pretty obvious when a post gets thanks because of good joke. I don't see any jokes in that duvessa's post and I doubt anyone else does.

Popular opinion is not always correct, however. It is possible for a popular post to be a bad post; for example: any post of mine that ever gets thanks

Shard1697 wrote:Popular opinion is not always correct, however. It is possible for a popular post to be a bad post; for example: any post of mine that ever gets thanks

That's a nice bait

Except for Sif/Veh, the usefulness of gods for melee/book background chars is mostly differentiated by one thing: XP investment. High XP gods (such as Zin, Ely, Nem, Uskayaw, even Qaz) tend to be better for melee chars, who tend to have extra XP to spare and want powerful spell-like effects. Medium invo gods (e.g. Makh, Lugonu) still offer more value to melee-heavy chars, but begin to be affordable to spell-heavy chars. Gods that offer significant benefits without investment (Fedhas, Dith, Kiku, Yred, Ash, etc) tend to be the best for spell-heavy chars since they get a benefit during the lengthy period of the game where they are strapped for XP. One can subdivide gods further based on the applicability of their specific powers, but XP investment is the main factor in my experience.

As for Dith, Dith is a strong god for just about any char except FE. The offensive and defensive passives are really strong, and once you get shadow form you also get a very powerful panic button. Dith's only real weakness is that the power boost doesn't really take off until you get fog blood and shadow mimic active.

Dg is the best designed race,no need for change.

I think I should explain:

1)They have all skill at -1 so they are not one of those races with +2 or more in a skill or bonuses/restrictions who pidgeonhole you in a playstyle(Sp,Tr,DE..).
The best races are the one who get -1/0/+1 on most of the skills(Spellcasting can be an exception).
If they get 0 or +1 the choices you make will be less meaningfull.
From my point of view(I played Dg a lot both offline and online) they don't need a buff.
We can't have all races to be DD,Mi or HO tier.

2)Dg is the slowest leveling race in the game(-2XP) and this is a good thing.
Imho there is to much XP in the game(even with the shorted branches).I think the levels are more condensed(more packed with monsters who give a lot of xp).
I may be wrong about this.
Possible solutions:icrease xp needed for level up,decrease xp for some monsters--> but those will nerf Dg and this is not necessary.
Maybe nerf some fast leveling races like HO.
This is weird: the game is shorter but more packed up with xp.

3)They can't worship gods who are op,broken and trivialize the game.So when you play a Dg RNG is factor.I find ways to counteract this to some degree but this is not important.
Gods can nullify the random factor of the game and make it boring.
This is only my opinion no need to get upset.

For people who get some problems with Dg you should play until you develop some strategies that works and build up a instinct.
This is true for all races.I guess people aren't used to play without a god who give them stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxGRhd_iWuE

Lasty wrote:Except for Sif/Veh, the usefulness of gods for melee/book background chars is mostly differentiated by one thing: XP investment. High XP gods (such as Zin, Ely, Nem, Uskayaw, even Qaz) tend to be better for melee chars, who tend to have extra XP to spare and want powerful spell-like effects. Medium invo gods (e.g. Makh, Lugonu) still offer more value to melee-heavy chars, but begin to be affordable to spell-heavy chars. Gods that offer significant benefits without investment (Fedhas, Dith, Kiku, Yred, Ash, etc) tend to be the best for spell-heavy chars since they get a benefit during the lengthy period of the game where they are strapped for XP. One can subdivide gods further based on the applicability of their specific powers, but XP investment is the main factor in my experience.

As for Dith, Dith is a strong god for just about any char except FE. The offensive and defensive passives are really strong, and once you get shadow form you also get a very powerful panic button. Dith's only real weakness is that the power boost doesn't really take off until you get fog blood and shadow mimic active.

Yeah, and I wouldn't call Dith a top tier God for just that reason - Unless you find him SUPER early, you're already starting lair before the really good powers kick in. Both Dith and Zin killer throughout the last 80% of a three rune game, though.

So the thread is already starting to get a bit too long to really be useful, and I'll admit to skimming it, but I think DG aptitudes are perfectly fine. At least, all of the ones you can skill on your skill menu. I wouldn't mind bumping the exp aptitude from -2 to -1, so they level as fast as the rest of the slow levelers, which would make their high hp/mana feel like it's actually high hp/mana. But that's about all I'd do.

Now I'm thinking - isn't "good for extended" (Dg's attributes and bonus hp/mp) bad design? Firestorm/Glaciate and Necromutation are basically extended spells and I've read oppinions that those spells are badly designed (i.e. not necessary to win).

Dg is not particularly amazing in extended. Gods make your character a lot better in extended. The stats and hp/mp are the most impactful at the beginning of the game.

Reptisaurus wrote:
Lasty wrote:Except for Sif/Veh, the usefulness of gods for melee/book background chars is mostly differentiated by one thing: XP investment. High XP gods (such as Zin, Ely, Nem, Uskayaw, even Qaz) tend to be better for melee chars, who tend to have extra XP to spare and want powerful spell-like effects. Medium invo gods (e.g. Makh, Lugonu) still offer more value to melee-heavy chars, but begin to be affordable to spell-heavy chars. Gods that offer significant benefits without investment (Fedhas, Dith, Kiku, Yred, Ash, etc) tend to be the best for spell-heavy chars since they get a benefit during the lengthy period of the game where they are strapped for XP. One can subdivide gods further based on the applicability of their specific powers, but XP investment is the main factor in my experience.

As for Dith, Dith is a strong god for just about any char except FE. The offensive and defensive passives are really strong, and once you get shadow form you also get a very powerful panic button. Dith's only real weakness is that the power boost doesn't really take off until you get fog blood and shadow mimic active.

Yeah, and I wouldn't call Dith a top tier God for just that reason - Unless you find him SUPER early, you're already starting lair before the really good powers kick in. Both Dith and Zin killer throughout the last 80% of a three rune game, though.

Unlike Zin, you do get the passive monster accuracy penalty at * tho. It's no wandering mushrooms, but it's a solid bonus at the point where you get it.

Lasty wrote:Unlike Zin, you do get the passive monster accuracy penalty at * tho. It's no wandering mushrooms, but it's a solid bonus at the point where you get it.

It's hard to get impressed by the penalty because almost no one understands how it works. Can we change it to plain (20%?) extra chance to miss? It might make Dith more attractive to characters in heavy armour I think.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Lasty wrote:Unlike Zin, you do get the passive monster accuracy penalty at * tho. It's no wandering mushrooms, but it's a solid bonus at the point where you get it.

It's hard to get impressed by the penalty because almost no one understands how it works. Can we change it to plain (20%?) extra chance to miss? It might make Dith more attractive to characters in heavy armour I think.

Yeah that's really true. (We are a ways off topic, huh?) I'm not sure I would have noticed if I hadn't read the wiki, and I never notice at all on even medium (let alone heavy!) armor characters. It does seem to keep my octopodes alive a little longer, though....

Sticking up for Zin... His * ability is almost a passive, and it can confuse orc prisest and wizards even at very low invocations. I suspect that Dith is slightly better at *, but Zin is not useless.

noticing something or not noticing something is not exactly an indication of said thing being good or bad (just saying)

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:noticing something or not noticing something is not exactly an indication of said thing being good or bad (just saying)

It depends. The more useful/relevant info you have, the better your decisions are. Just imagine that Vehumet's wizardry boost wouldn't be displayed in I screen, would many players use it instead of Sif Muna or Kiku?
For the same reason I don't even know how useful Dith is for heavy armour pure-melee character. Maybe it is great but I don't want to lose character to learn it.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:[For the same reason I don't even know how useful Dith is for heavy armour pure-melee character. Maybe it is great but I don't want to lose character to learn it.

It's OK http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/rast/ ... 050503.txt

Rast wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:[For the same reason I don't even know how useful Dith is for heavy armour pure-melee character. Maybe it is great but I don't want to lose character to learn it.

It's OK http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/rast/ ... 050503.txt

Do you mean it is good enough to join when you have vampiric bardiche and shadow dragon armour?

IDK about heavy armour melee, but He should be pretty great for heavy armour ranged.

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