Demigods

[PowerOfKaishin]

Mod edit: moved from GDD, since the thread is primarily advice.

Demigods have no advantages outside of sustain abilities, so their high stats are never called into question by the game. This is a very smart design choice IMO which is why it baffles me that they have nothing else. Their high stats and Robust trait aren't advantages, and I'll explain why below.

But first, let me just go out and say they have nothing else. They are mediocre to bad everywhere else.
- They have bad apts. Not terrible, definitely not as bad as Tr or Mu, but they still have one of the worst spreads.
- They level slowly. Slower than any other race.
- They can't have a god.
- They're boring because the disadvantage directly above this one isn't offset by something that makes them interesting. This is the big reason why no one minds the crappy Ds apts, because that race is extremely interesting to play.

Now, all of you are probably wondering why I haven't mentioned Robust and their high stats (only referencing sustain abilities) as advantages.

That's because they aren't. They're crutches that offset an otherwise absolutely terrible race. They're SUPPOSED to enjoy two really nice advantages, but...
- Robust is offset by the fact that they are a lower level than everyone else in the dungeon. For those who're still getting the sleepies out of their eyes, lower level = less HP.
- High stats are offset by bad apts. High stats only make it so that Dg don't need their skill levels as high to get the same EV as Hu, the same spellcasting rates as Hu, or the same armor penalty reduction as Hu. However, because their aptitudes are worse, they still require a similar amount of experience.

Regardless of whether or not my numbers are a little off for the previous two statements, I believe the point is clear. The simple fact of the matter is that Dg's disadvantages counteract almost all of their advantages on some level.

Last I checked, the main conduct demigods have is supposed to be godlessness. Why do they have these other penalties? I listed reasons why gameplay-wise this is a strange decision, but even flavor-wise the reasons don't make sense. Shouldn't a Dg should be better than a Hu at everything except god worship?

My proposal is similar to one made prior, only I take nothing away from Dg in return. It's just a straight up buff. I want to change the apts to the following:

Fighting: 1
Short Blades: 1
Long Blades: 1
Axes: 1
Maces & Flails: 1
Polearms: 1
Staves: 1
Unarmed Combat: 1

Throwing: 1
Slings: 1
Bows: 1
Crossbows: 1

Armour: 1
Dodging: 1
Stealth: 1
Shields: 1

Fire Magic: 1
Ice Magic: 1
Air Magic: 1
Earth Magic: 1
Poison Magic: 1

Spellcasting: 1
Conjurations: 1
Hexes: 1
Charms: 1
Summonings: 3
Necromancy: 0
Translocations: 1
Transmutation: 1

Invocations: N/A
Evocations: 2
Experience: 0

This is similar to the topic linked below but there are a few changes.
- Experience as a +2 apt is a little ridiculous tbh. +1 is still a little ridiculous. 0 seems fine, as, like I said, it shouldn't be hindering the usefulness of their Robust by being -2 or even -1.
- Spellcasting is 1 because it's neat to have that as an advantage.
- Summonings is 3 because killing with summons results in reduced exp. Flavor plays a part too, but I strived to make sense of it.
- Necromancy is 0 because it is universally wanted, especially considering literally every Dg should be using magic. Again, flavor does admittingly play a part, but this has gameplay implications as well.
- Stealth is 1 because there's no reason for it to be higher. The original proposal had it as 2 (and Spellcasting as 0) because that proposal was basically every Hu apt +1 (except Evocations I think), but this strives to put more thought into it.

Lastly, Evocations remains at 2 because there's a lot of encouragement towards investing in magic, so Evocations needs a higher apt to give players a competitive alternate choice for their exp.

Reference topic. There's no need to read it to understand anything in this topic, but it's here for historical purposes.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12057

[Sar]

I don't think Dg are supposed to be "so OP they don't even need a god".

[PowerOfKaishin]

I don't think Dg are supposed to be "so OP they don't even need a god".

How would this make them OP?

[VeryAngryFelid]

I don't understand why you say Dg are boring because they are weak. If anything, it is OP species who are boring, especially if you go with the same OP gods every time (Mi of Trog, for example). Dg greatly depend on loot (unless you are doing some weird things like training fighting all early game while waiting for a quarterstaff to drop) and having relatively bad aptitudes make strategic decisions more important, you cannot train 5 skills simultaneously and still be fine.
Species are kind of difficulty levels in crawl, I wouldn't like any species buffed.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I don't think Dg are supposed to be "so OP they don't even need a god".

How would this make them OP?

They are average race now. Buffing all their aptitudes and XP by 2 will make them top-tier.

[PowerOfKaishin]

I don't think Dg are supposed to be "so OP they don't even need a god".

How would this make them OP?

They are average race now. Buffing all their aptitudes and XP by 2 will make them top-tier.

I pointed out why this isn't the case. I thought it was pretty clear. Their advantages are only a crutch that pushes them towards mediocrity (Robust is counteracted by lower level, high stats counteracted mostly by bad apts), but because they don't have a diety they suck.

How can you say they are average...

[VeryAngryFelid]

How can you say they are average...

Early game is most important and you typically don't have a god there. Also I remember an old thread where some calculations were done for spell power, demigods are stronger than humans spell-wise but weaker than deep elves.

[PowerOfKaishin]

I don't understand why you say Dg are boring because they are weak. If anything, it is OP species who are boring, especially if you go with the same OP gods every time (Mi of Trog, for example). Dg greatly depend on loot (unless you are doing some weird things like training fighting all early game while waiting for a quarterstaff to drop) and having relatively bad aptitudes make strategic decisions more important, you cannot train 5 skills simultaneously and still be fine.
Species are kind of difficulty levels in crawl, I wouldn't like any species buffed.

The "bad apts force decisions" viewpoint is very valid, but you can make all of those decisions as Ds which also gets a god on top of that so if that's the reason you're playing Dg you might as well just play Ds.

And let's step away from the OP gods spheal. A game is meant to be enjoyable first and foremost and players that have the problem of not wanting to play optimally in terms of god worship have the option of... choosing from the other 20 gods.

Dg is objectively the most boring race. They get all of this cool stuff but they're held back by it. The game is based on meaningful choice, yes, but that's not something that should be present everywhere. I'm going to use an extreme example and say that the only win condition is the orb of zot. Should we complain there's no alternate choices? No, because you have the option of picking which 3 runes you get and whether or not you stop at 3.

Similarly, Dg have enough exp to invest in what they want but they still have to decide what to invest into. It's just that if Dg get +1s, then the game turns into one where you invest in what you want rather than what you need. There is still a choice being made.

I enjoy playing SpEn which has oodles of leftover skill experience points so I don't think we will see eye-to-eye, but I digress.

[PowerOfKaishin]

How can you say they are average...

Early game is most important and you typically don't have a god there. Also I remember an old thread where some calculations were done for spell power, demigods are stronger than humans spell-wise but weaker than deep elves.

I mean Trolls can steamroll the early game. That doesn't make them a bad race (no, it's having completely polarizing and monotonous gameplay that causes them to be boring). Play what you want.

I can tell you that despite how much SpEn rocks the entire early game well into lair and orcs, it is still exciting to play them, sneaking up and one-hit killing things that can take a huge bite out of you if you mess up.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I don't enjoy playing Dg either (too easy and boring indeed) but I wouldn't like them buffed because it would make them even less enjoyable for me and also I don't want other species to get buffed too based on the same reason ("too hard").

[VeryAngryFelid]

I can tell you that despite how much SpEn rocks the entire early game well into lair and orcs, it is still exciting to play them, sneaking up and one-hit killing things that can take a huge bite out of you if you mess up.

Do you think it is aptitudes and XP that make SpEn exciting to play? It is glass-canon taken to extreme (one shot things if lucky, being one-shot if unlucky) and the same would happen even if they were godless. This is somewhat typical for En though. I am not sure what it has to do with Dg reform, it is more related to En, than to Sp.

[PowerOfKaishin]

It is apts that make SpEn fun to play because I like to worship Sif and she gives me all these cool toys that numerous +3/4s and a +2 Spellcasting apt let me play with. It normally works out that you get quite a few books without Sif and with positive spellcasting and other apts Dg would still be free to play around with them.

Edit: It's not just apts, it's all that other stuff too. But apts are still a big part. Sp would be super lame if they were just a really fast and frail race with crappy apts. Giving them one of the best spreads in the game makes them a blast to play.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I have different experience, I got similar feelings with NaEn, DsEn, KoEn, DEEn, MuEn, FeEn, HuEn.

[duvessa]

Buffing Dg for the sake of buffing it is absurd. It is already one of the stronger species, easily top 10 and arguably top 5. And their aptitudes are almost as close to average as humans' are so I'm not sure why you're calling them bad.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I'm not sure why you're calling them bad.

Players usually choose the best species for given role, like Sp for En, Te for FE or Mi for Gl. -1 aptitude is bad when you compare it to +2 and +3.

[PowerOfKaishin]

I sure do love it when people tell me I'm wrong without explaining why, Duvy.

On a less sarcastic note, I do appreciate your responses VAF, but neither of you have addressed my points about Robust and stats being counteracted by exp apt and other apts respectively.

And yes, -1 is bad when it's across the board

[duvessa]

Dg's early game is similar to Hu's except better. It has better HP, better EV, better spell success and power, and usually better melee damage. That's enough to make it very strong.
What is there to say about your point that hp and stats are counteracted by aptitudes, other than that it is objectively and trivially wrong? Compared to Hu, Dg gets better EV and spell success/power for the same XP invested, despite having a slightly lower aptitude.

[PowerOfKaishin]

I'll play one later and see what happens. In the mean time, explain how they have higher HP when they're always behind in levels, especially compared to humans.

[VeryAngryFelid]

On a less sarcastic note, I do appreciate your responses VAF, but neither of you have addressed my points about Robust and stats being counteracted by exp apt and other apts respectively.

That's because you are right and I have no arguments. Dg is easy early game, becomes harder middle game (usually harder than Human with OP god), then becomes easy again late game. I have an offline game of DgTm suspended for a few months already (I am in Zot with Statue/Dragon Form, I want to get 15 runes but feel lazy)

  Code:

122129 | Vaults:5 | Reached XP level 25. HP: 228/228 MP: 19/43

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Sandman25/m ... 225442.txt

This is close to HP of Human at XL 27 except you are just XL 25 and your HP continues to increase.

Edit. Based on http://crawl.chaosforge.org/XL#Experience_Required XP aptitude is not that important. For example, XL 12 requires 15450 XP while XL 14 requires 48500, that's more than triple cost. You will be at XL 12-13 for a long time no matter what XP aptitude is.

[PowerOfKaishin]

If I'm right about the hp then how are they easier early game?

Also that morgue has a level 27 character (not 25). Of course dg is miles ahead at max level.

[VeryAngryFelid]

If I'm right about the hp then how are they easier early game?

They start with extra HP, extra MP, extra spell power, less failure rate.

Edit. Also I edited previous message, it has some useful info I think.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Those ERs are from .13. Are they still accurate?

[VeryAngryFelid]

ERs?

My suspended game is in 0.18.1
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=21218&p=286675

[PowerOfKaishin]

By ERs I meant experience requirements.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I think so. XL 20 after 2 runes, Vaults 4 and Elf 1.

[Lasty]

Dg is objectively the most boring race.

This isn't objectively true. For me, felids are the most boring race, though of course I mean boring to play. I suspect you mean something more like "demigods have the most objectively boring feature set", but that is not objectively correct either: humans have fewer features than demigods, being essentially the baseline case.

It looks a lot like your argument here is really that you don't like demigods. It sounds like you like races that give lots of power, like spriggans. Luckily for you, the game has no shortage of such races, so there's no need to convert demigod into one.

A lot of the posts looking to change demigods over the years have been of the form "I like the species that have [foo], and demigod isn't like that; please give demigod [foo]," usually with random mutations as the foo. One of the strong suits of demigods currently is that they're distinct from other species to a good degree while still creating interesting gameplay for people who appreciate how they play. And, speaking as someone who has played a lot of demigods, they've got no problems in the power department.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Dg is objectively the most boring race.

This isn't objectively true. For me, felids are the most boring race, though of course I mean boring to play. I suspect you mean something more like "demigods have the most objectively boring feature set", but that is not objectively correct either: humans have fewer features than demigods, being essentially the baseline case.

Hoomans have god worship. Demigods take away a fun part of the game without really replacing it with anything interesting.

It looks a lot like your argument here is really that you don't like demigods. It sounds like you like races that give lots of power, like spriggans. Luckily for you, the game has no shortage of such races, so there's no need to convert demigod into one.

I suppose that's true. It's just... I expected something named Demigod to be... well, you know, kinda a gamebreaker race like Sp, Ce, and DD.

A lot of the posts looking to change demigods over the years have been of the form "I like the species that have [foo], and demigod isn't like that; please give demigod [foo]," usually with random mutations as the foo. One of the strong suits of demigods currently is that they're distinct from other species to a good degree while still creating interesting gameplay for people who appreciate how they play. And, speaking as someone who has played a lot of demigods, they've got no problems in the power department.

Hmm, I'll see right now.

[CanOfWorms]

the fun part of the game with demigods is trying to figure out the best way of using the loot you're given instead of going to a god that fasttracks you on a winning strategy with gifts

[PowerOfKaishin]

Alrighty. I just played a few Dg and quit my last one. I used mostly DgFE.

High HP was definitely a real thing. It more than makes up for the levels. I'll concede that point. I also had a lot of MP for flametongue, which was kinda nice considering Dg's ass spellcasting.

However, the apts really hurt. I stand by that. Everything takes forever to get online. Dg is a race you spellcast with but they honestly seem as though they need to start physical in order to really trounce the early game as some have claimed in this topic. They aren't very good spellcasters right off the bat considering they have to divert a good chunk of it just to get spellcasting to 2.0 for the additional spell slot, which is needed even more than it normally is because of Dg's level deficit and is quite a sink because of the -2 apt even though it's only .3 points. This is of course in addition to their lackluster spellcaster apts that require a ton of other exp as well. The high int balances it out only slightly, if at all. And this is before the fact that most Dg aren't going to stay in robes is taken into consideration.

Presumably a DgFE would maybe get fireball online about halfway through lair, where they then use their high HP and ability to cast in slightly better armor than the average mage as a crutch for dealing with the various threats in Lair. I'm going to assume this would not go over well or wouldn't be particularly exciting or noteworthy compared to a lot of other races.

The crappy apts make for an extremely frustrating choice between deciding to just start as a fighter or use one of the "recommended" races for a guaranteed book and crazy amounts of int by endgame.

Dg may not need better apts, but they definitely give that illusion. The recommended races are a bunch of crock, and Dg is best with a physical class. I think optimal for Dg is that you start slashing things like no tomorrow (Dg can have a field day with longswords, for obvious reasons), and then simply start pumping int either in preparation for books or as soon as you find one with a spell you like. The recommended races should be changed.

At this point I think just their magic apts should be better, as it is really sad trying to get spells going right off the bat.

[duvessa]

Hoomans have god worship. Demigods take away a fun part of the game without really replacing it with anything interesting.

I don't think gods are a fun part of the game. I find god choice to be obvious on every character, and after you have a god I find that they make the game less interesting, not more, by giving you a surplus of options.

Sounds like you should really try HuFE. It takes more experience for HuFE to get fireball "online" than it does for DgFE to get fireball to the same success rate and power.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Hoomans have god worship. Demigods take away a fun part of the game without really replacing it with anything interesting.

I don't think gods are a fun part of the game. I find god choice to be obvious on every character, and after you have a god I find that they make the game less interesting, not more, by giving you a surplus of options.

Sounds like you should really try HuFE. It takes more experience for HuFE to get fireball "online" than it does for DgFE to get fireball to the same success rate and power.

If you're going to just play optimally, then simply use nothing but TrBe. That argument doesn't really work and I can't believe you still choose your god based on optimal play (unless tournament) and not based on which god you want to completely transform your game. That sounds like you'd get bored to tears really fast.

I guess I'll try HuFE later.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Or better try HOFE. You will appreciate -2 Spellcasting of Dg then.

Spoiler: show

I am not joking actually, it is very interesting character

[Sar]

HOFE is great!

[duvessa]

Hoomans have god worship. Demigods take away a fun part of the game without really replacing it with anything interesting.

I don't think gods are a fun part of the game. I find god choice to be obvious on every character, and after you have a god I find that they make the game less interesting, not more, by giving you a surplus of options.

Sounds like you should really try HuFE. It takes more experience for HuFE to get fireball "online" than it does for DgFE to get fireball to the same success rate and power.

If you're going to just play optimally, then simply use nothing but TrBe. That argument doesn't really work and I can't believe you still choose your god based on optimal play (unless tournament) and not based on which god you want to completely transform your game. That sounds like you'd get bored to tears really fast.

I guess I'll try HuFE later.

I already only pick gods I think I'll find tolerable to play. But I'm not saying that just some gods are uninteresting. I'm saying that I believe every god in currently in Crawl, both independently and as a group, makes it less interesting.

[lethediver]

im of the opinion Dg could use an "interestingness buff" moreso than an actual stats buff. Playing without a god removes an entire dimension from the game.

[Shard1697]

The decisions you make without a god are more interesting than those you make with a god

[ion_frigate]

There was a proposal to give Dg a "make-your-own-aptitudes" buff a while back, I think. Whatever happened to that? I think it would be a good idea - something like +1 aptitude/3 levels, probably with an absolute cap of +1 or +2 on each skill. It would replace the god dimension with one that no other character has, and shouldn't be a huge buff: being able to pull 4 aptitudes up to +1 or 3 up to +2 is hardly game-breaking, especially given how slowly it would come. Furthermore, it would enhance the whole "your character adapts to the loot you come across" element.

If people feel so strongly that Dg shouldn't be buffed, perhaps their initial aptitudes or stats could be nerfed to compensate.

[Reptisaurus]

Hoomans have god worship. Demigods take away a fun part of the game without really replacing it with anything interesting.

Completely agree with this, btw. I think Demigods are strong but boring. You always have the option of playing without a God, and it's pretty much the same experience.

[duvessa]

"make-your-own-aptitudes" is equivalent to "increase all their aptitudes" since there's no reason to train lots of skills at once.

[DracheReborn]

Dg is thought of as the species with godless conduct, but it's equally valid to think of it as a religion that gives you bonus stats and hp/mp, at the cost of slower xp and skill growth, and it's a religion that only accepts humans. Seen this way, Dg is a species/god combo that combines a featureless species with an extremely passive religion, and I think this is why many people consider it to be boring.

This same blandness though is what makes Dg appealing to purists. In effect, it's crawl "the way it's meant to be played", without distractions of species gimmicks or god powers. Vanilla crawl, if you will.

I don't have a problem with having this mode in the game, but I do think that there may be a presentation problem in that it's not very obvious that this is supposed to be demigod's niche (as demonstrated by the repeated requests to make Dg less boring). Some added text in Dg's description to make this explicit could help IMO. But I think a rename/retheme would help even more.

I also have to note in passing that this all seems like an overcomplicated way to produce a vanilla mode. But then I guess it's the crawl way of doing things

[Psieye]

Had the OP been phrased as "I don't understand Dg, to me it looks bad. Can someone enlighten me?" in the advice forum, this thread would have looked much better. Instead, OP pulled a "I don't like this, I will rely on blind rationalisation to justify my feelings. On top of that, I'll imply the devs don't know what they're doing and give them a better solution to a problem I don't quite understand."

Don't be surprised when people retaliate an OP like that.

[xXxMemekMaestro69xXx]

Demigods are something you use as training to play real atheists. Similar to how a newbie uses a MiFi^Oka to learn how to play melee and later branch on to an OgHu^Oka. They are an essential training race and they are called as such because they're not weak.

[kuniqs]

Demigod's shtick (I suspect) is supposed to be adaptation to whatever equipment they find. It doesn't work in practice because of the bad aptitudes. If Demigods had +1 in all skills then I could believe it. If there's no practical difference between -+1 apts, then giving Demigods +1 apts all across the board should not change the balance of power.

About 'adaptation' - because you're not guaranteed anything, almost every Demigod game follows the same pattern: train Fighting and Dodging constantly until level 20-22, train Staves so you have greater chance of acquiring one later (or you'll find one sooner or later), train Evocations so you can take advantage of one of the zillion stupid magic items and wands and train Armour / spells skills depending on whenever you'll find a good heavier armour or good spellbooks. Raise Dex to 20-24. Put rest into Str/Int depending on what spells you find. Eventually get a fire dragon armour and enchant it.

Maybe some of you like playing characters which are basically the same.

[VeryAngryFelid]

What? Do you mean you play DgTm or DgCj this way too? You know there are more backgrounds than just Fi and Gl.

Edit. That's my DgAr:

  Code:

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Short sword       |   106 |     1 |       |       |       |       |       |       |       ||   107
       Dagger            |       |   184 |   652 |  1443 |  1957 |       |       |       |       ||  4236
       Demon trident     |       |       |       |       |   627 |  2672 |  2932 |  2175 |  2009 || 10415
       Cutlass           |       |       |       |       |    67 |       |       |       |       ||    67

If it is not adaptation, then I don't know what is.

[duvessa]

About 'adaptation' - because you're not guaranteed anything, almost every Demigod game follows the same pattern: train Fighting and Dodging constantly until level 20-22, train Staves so you have greater chance of acquiring one later (or you'll find one sooner or later), train Evocations so you can take advantage of one of the zillion stupid magic items and wands and train Armour / spells skills depending on whenever you'll find a good heavier armour or good spellbooks. Raise Dex to 20-24. Put rest into Str/Int depending on what spells you find. Eventually get a fire dragon armour and enchant it.

This is the worst demigod strategy I have ever heard. Perhaps you would find them more adaptable if you didn't follow it.

[kuniqs]

About 'adaptation' - because you're not guaranteed anything, almost every Demigod game follows the same pattern: train Fighting and Dodging constantly until level 20-22, train Staves so you have greater chance of acquiring one later (or you'll find one sooner or later), train Evocations so you can take advantage of one of the zillion stupid magic items and wands and train Armour / spells skills depending on whenever you'll find a good heavier armour or good spellbooks. Raise Dex to 20-24. Put rest into Str/Int depending on what spells you find. Eventually get a fire dragon armour and enchant it.

This is the worst demigod strategy I have ever heard. Perhaps you would find them more adaptable if you didn't follow it.

This is the worst reply I have ever heard. Perhaps your argument here (for a lack of a better word) would be more compelling if you, dunno, posted winning Dg morgues with better strategy, or wrote me what a better strategy is?

[Elitist]

Personally, I'd be fine with Demigod if their Fighting and Spellcasting were bumped up a point, especially for the latter.

[Lasty]

There's been some talk about demigods' adaptability. The obvious piece of that is that their skills train slightly slowly and their stats are very high, which leaves them a bit above average on adaptability overall. What's more important is that adaptation is a core aspect of demigod gameplay, since they have one fewer guaranteed power progression than other species. Adaptation is most interesting when it's non-trivial -- if they have +1 skill to everything, they would have no trouble using just about everything they come across. As it is, they need to make some choices about what to do and what not to do, which is far more interesting than getting easy access to every opportunity the dungeon throws at them.

[VeryAngryFelid]

This is the worst reply I have ever heard. Perhaps your argument here (for a lack of a better word) would be more compelling if you, dunno, posted winning Dg morgues with better strategy, or wrote me what a better strategy is?

That reply has many thanks (mine included) so obviously it was not a bad reply. A better strategy is "adapt to loot". For example, if you found a +0 dagger of electro/draining:
1) start training Short Blades
2) if you don't hate stabbing, start training stealth and switch to leather or robe (depending on loot too of course: if you found +5 chain mail, forget about stabbing and spells, just become heavy melee warrior who uses short blades).
Basically don't think about your strategy for orb of fire when you are looking for Lair.

[nago]

This is the worst reply I have ever heard. Perhaps your argument here (for a lack of a better word) would be more compelling if you, dunno, posted winning Dg morgues with better strategy, or wrote me what a better strategy is?

A better described Dg strategy (dunno if Duvessa would agree, or prefer/consider others better):

1) Choose a book background because their gimmick benefits much more from book backgrounds than melee one.
2) Possibly, choose a good book background over a shit book background
3) Learn the spells of your starting book 3b) use them
4) Use whatever good spawns in the dungeon, when it is sensible to do so 4b) possibly, train the relative skills.
5) ???
6) Win the game