Is this Randart worth?

[wincelet]

I've been constantly asking myself this, and so I was wondering if there was a general place to ask this question?

Anyways I have two scenarios I would like advice on:

Necklace choice -> regen amulet OR {Reflect *Drain rElec Dex+8 Slay-5 SH+4}
weapon choice -> + 9 trident of draining OR +8 trident {flame, *Contam Int+2 Dex+3} (also is a +4 spear {holy, rN+ SInv Stlth+} worth keeping around?)

[stickyfingers]

Regen and draining. Slay-5 is terrible if you're meleeing, and for low-damage weapons, like a trident, an additive brand, like draining, is better. That said, trident is crap. Move over to either glaive or demon trident.

And no, that spear is useless.

[wincelet]

Would a + 2 demon trident of piercing be better?

[VeryAngryFelid]

Yes

Edit. No, I was wrong.

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.18.1
Attack: Merfolk Gladiator vs. yak (4000 rounds) (2016/10/09/19:15:31)
Merfolk Gladiator: XL 1   Str 15   Int 7   Dex 14
Wielding: +9 trident of draining, Skill: Polearms
yak: HD 7   AC 4   EV 7

  Polearms | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      9,8 |     30 |      79% |   7,8 |   130  |  0,77 |      6,0
         1 |     10,0 |     31 |      80% |   8,0 |   125  |  0,80 |      6,4
         2 |      9,9 |     31 |      79% |   7,9 |   120  |  0,83 |      6,6
         3 |     10,0 |     34 |      80% |   8,0 |   115  |  0,87 |      7,0
         4 |     10,1 |     32 |      80% |   8,1 |   110  |  0,91 |      7,4
         5 |     10,5 |     34 |      79% |   8,4 |   105  |  0,95 |      8,0
         6 |     10,4 |     31 |      80% |   8,4 |   100  |  1,00 |      8,4
         7 |     10,4 |     36 |      80% |   8,5 |    95  |  1,05 |      8,9
         8 |     10,5 |     34 |      79% |   8,4 |    90  |  1,11 |      9,3
         9 |     10,7 |     37 |      81% |   8,7 |    85  |  1,18 |     10,2
        10 |     10,6 |     39 |      81% |   8,6 |    80  |  1,25 |     10,7
        11 |     11,0 |     35 |      80% |   8,9 |    75  |  1,33 |     11,8
        12 |     11,1 |     36 |      82% |   9,1 |    70  |  1,43 |     13,0
        13 |     11,1 |     36 |      82% |   9,2 |    65  |  1,54 |     14,2
        14 |     11,0 |     35 |      81% |   9,0 |    60  |  1,67 |     15,0
        15 |     11,4 |     37 |      82% |   9,4 |    60  |  1,67 |     15,7
        16 |     11,4 |     37 |      82% |   9,5 |    60  |  1,67 |     15,8
        17 |     11,6 |     40 |      80% |   9,4 |    60  |  1,67 |     15,6
        18 |     11,4 |     40 |      81% |   9,4 |    60  |  1,67 |     15,6
        19 |     11,8 |     40 |      82% |   9,7 |    60  |  1,67 |     16,2
        20 |     11,8 |     39 |      82% |   9,8 |    60  |  1,67 |     16,3
        21 |     12,2 |     43 |      83% |  10,2 |    60  |  1,67 |     17,0
        22 |     12,1 |     40 |      83% |  10,1 |    60  |  1,67 |     16,9
        23 |     12,3 |     44 |      82% |  10,1 |    60  |  1,67 |     16,9
        24 |     12,5 |     46 |      83% |  10,4 |    60  |  1,67 |     17,4
        25 |     12,4 |     43 |      84% |  10,5 |    60  |  1,67 |     17,4
        26 |     12,6 |     46 |      83% |  10,5 |    60  |  1,67 |     17,6
        27 |     12,8 |     48 |      83% |  10,7 |    60  |  1,67 |     17,8
-----------------------------------


  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.18.1
Attack: Merfolk Gladiator vs. yak (4000 rounds) (2016/10/09/19:15:57)
Merfolk Gladiator: XL 1   Str 15   Int 7   Dex 14
Wielding: +2 demon trident of piercing, Skill: Polearms
yak: HD 7   AC 4   EV 7

  Polearms | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      7,5 |     24 |      75% |   5,7 |   130  |  0,77 |      4,4
         1 |      7,5 |     23 |      74% |   5,6 |   125  |  0,80 |      4,5
         2 |      7,5 |     23 |      76% |   5,7 |   120  |  0,83 |      4,8
         3 |      7,6 |     24 |      76% |   5,8 |   115  |  0,87 |      5,0
         4 |      7,8 |     23 |      75% |   5,9 |   110  |  0,91 |      5,3
         5 |      8,0 |     26 |      77% |   6,2 |   105  |  0,95 |      5,9
         6 |      7,9 |     26 |      77% |   6,1 |   100  |  1,00 |      6,1
         7 |      8,4 |     27 |      76% |   6,4 |    95  |  1,05 |      6,7
         8 |      8,5 |     27 |      79% |   6,8 |    90  |  1,11 |      7,5
         9 |      8,6 |     29 |      78% |   6,7 |    85  |  1,18 |      7,9
        10 |      8,9 |     27 |      77% |   6,9 |    80  |  1,25 |      8,6
        11 |      8,8 |     31 |      78% |   6,9 |    75  |  1,33 |      9,2
        12 |      8,8 |     31 |      79% |   7,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     10,0
        13 |      9,3 |     32 |      78% |   7,3 |    65  |  1,54 |     11,3
        14 |      9,2 |     33 |      78% |   7,2 |    60  |  1,67 |     12,0
        15 |      9,5 |     34 |      79% |   7,5 |    60  |  1,67 |     12,5
        16 |      9,5 |     33 |      80% |   7,6 |    60  |  1,67 |     12,7
        17 |      9,9 |     36 |      80% |   7,9 |    60  |  1,67 |     13,2
        18 |     10,1 |     33 |      78% |   8,0 |    60  |  1,67 |     13,3
        19 |     10,1 |     37 |      80% |   8,1 |    60  |  1,67 |     13,6
        20 |     10,4 |     36 |      80% |   8,4 |    60  |  1,67 |     14,0
        21 |     10,5 |     38 |      79% |   8,3 |    60  |  1,67 |     13,9
        22 |     10,6 |     37 |      81% |   8,6 |    60  |  1,67 |     14,4
        23 |     10,9 |     38 |      81% |   8,9 |    60  |  1,67 |     14,8
        24 |     11,0 |     39 |      81% |   9,0 |    60  |  1,67 |     14,9
        25 |     11,2 |     39 |      80% |   9,0 |    60  |  1,67 |     14,9
        26 |     11,2 |     42 |      81% |   9,1 |    60  |  1,67 |     15,1
        27 |     11,6 |     42 |      82% |   9,5 |    60  |  1,67 |     15,9
-----------------------------------

[wincelet]

Where did you get that calculator from?

[Shard1697]

it's fight sim(fsim), which is a function in crawl wizard mode(which is a debug-esque mode which lets you spawn stuff/ alter stuff etc.) Download local crawl and you can use it.

[Rast]

Would a + 2 demon trident of piercing be better?

If it's not an artifact, you should keep it around to enchant up and hopefully rebrand.

[duvessa]

it's fight sim(fsim), which is a function in crawl wizard mode(which is a debug-esque mode which lets you spawn stuff/ alter stuff etc.) Download local crawl and you can use it.

It's also what you should use to make your weapon choices, instead of trusting people on Tavern (as you can see, they are often wrong).

[goodcoolguy]

Wow. +2 demon trident of piercing better than +9 demon trident of draining...? I am floored.

[Sar]

the draining trident isn't demonic???

[Shard1697]

it's fight sim(fsim), which is a function in crawl wizard mode(which is a debug-esque mode which lets you spawn stuff/ alter stuff etc.) Download local crawl and you can use it.

It's also what you should use to make your weapon choices, instead of trusting people on Tavern (as you can see, they are often wrong).

You should, but it's kind of annoying/time consuming to use it repeatedly. so instead go with your gut, use higher base damage unless enchant is huge, and use fsim to settle dumb arguments on tavern

[goodcoolguy]

the draining trident isn't demonic???

oic. That is at least close for some skill levels.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

the draining trident isn't demonic???

oic. That is at least close for some skill levels.

?? - the draining trident is better than the demon trident at all skill levels, by a couple of points.

[ololoev]

Download local crawl and you can use it.

LOL I always curious about people who take wizmode so serious that one should download local crawl to use it!
Guys, just discover crawl.berotato.org:8081 for yourselves!

[CypherZel]

All you guys are wrong, just whip out a calculator and crunch the numbers yourself, this is actually what I do

[Airwolf]

Calculator? Pfft. I make little marks in the dirt with a stick.

[WingedEspeon]

What fighting level was the Fsim run at? That can impact the results. A Chei character with 27 fighting (extreme example) should find the demon trident to be better.

Also, randarts can be better or worse than non artifact items. Jewlry randarts are generaly the most usable as they don't have an enchantment level that can roll low. wepon randarts are the least usable as you need to roll a high enchantment and a good base type to be good.

[Siegurt]

If I were to use the common tavern's rule-of-thumb I would estimate that the base damage difference (4) is worth 1.5 as much as the the enchantment difference (7)
Making a +9 trident better than a +2 demon trident, at least until you get it enchanted a few more points.

I would further estimate that draining is about 3 points better than piercing, so I would estimate (without actually checking) that you would need about 4-5 more enchantment on the dtrident before it beats the trident (Or possibly a better brand and less enchantment)

[VeryAngryFelid]

What fighting level was the Fsim run at?

Fighting was changed to 10, all other stats are of XL 1 MfGl.

[njvack]

lesson learned: draining is boss

[VeryAngryFelid]

+2 trident of draining is worse than the d. trident. Boss is the combo of +9 and draining

  Code:

Attack: Merfolk Gladiator vs. yak (4000 rounds) (2016/10/10/21:14:31)
Merfolk Gladiator: XL 1   Str 15   Int 7   Dex 14
Wielding: +2 trident of draining, Skill: Polearms
yak: HD 7   AC 4   EV 7

  Polearms | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      6,1 |     24 |      74% |   4,5 |   130  |  0,77 |      3,5
         1 |      6,2 |     22 |      75% |   4,7 |   125  |  0,80 |      3,8
         2 |      6,2 |     23 |      74% |   4,6 |   120  |  0,83 |      3,8
         3 |      6,2 |     22 |      77% |   4,8 |   115  |  0,87 |      4,2
         4 |      6,3 |     22 |      77% |   4,9 |   110  |  0,91 |      4,4
         5 |      6,4 |     23 |      76% |   4,9 |   105  |  0,95 |      4,7
         6 |      6,6 |     25 |      77% |   5,1 |   100  |  1,00 |      5,1
         7 |      6,7 |     26 |      77% |   5,2 |    95  |  1,05 |      5,5
         8 |      6,8 |     26 |      77% |   5,3 |    90  |  1,11 |      5,9
         9 |      6,9 |     25 |      76% |   5,3 |    85  |  1,18 |      6,2
        10 |      7,0 |     25 |      78% |   5,5 |    80  |  1,25 |      6,9
        11 |      7,2 |     29 |      79% |   5,7 |    75  |  1,34 |      7,6
        12 |      7,1 |     28 |      79% |   5,6 |    70  |  1,43 |      8,0
        13 |      7,3 |     28 |      79% |   5,8 |    65  |  1,54 |      8,9
        14 |      7,4 |     29 |      78% |   5,9 |    60  |  1,67 |      9,8
        15 |      7,6 |     30 |      79% |   6,1 |    60  |  1,67 |     10,1
        16 |      7,6 |     33 |      79% |   6,1 |    60  |  1,67 |     10,2
        17 |      7,7 |     32 |      79% |   6,1 |    60  |  1,67 |     10,2
        18 |      7,9 |     32 |      79% |   6,3 |    60  |  1,67 |     10,5
        19 |      8,0 |     32 |      80% |   6,5 |    60  |  1,67 |     10,8
        20 |      8,1 |     33 |      80% |   6,5 |    60  |  1,67 |     10,9
        21 |      8,3 |     37 |      80% |   6,7 |    60  |  1,67 |     11,2
        22 |      8,4 |     32 |      81% |   6,9 |    60  |  1,67 |     11,5
        23 |      8,3 |     34 |      80% |   6,8 |    60  |  1,67 |     11,3
        24 |      8,7 |     34 |      81% |   7,1 |    60  |  1,67 |     11,8
        25 |      8,6 |     32 |      80% |   6,9 |    60  |  1,67 |     11,5
        26 |      9,0 |     40 |      81% |   7,3 |    60  |  1,67 |     12,2
        27 |      8,9 |     38 |      80% |   7,2 |    60  |  1,67 |     12,0

[Shard1697]

Draining does enough extra damage to already be pretty good without the debuff, which it also has-and it works on most pre-extended enemies. Aside from vampiric/speed, draining might be my favorite brand. Or tied with antimagic right below those two.

[njvack]

I've never quite gotten the vamp love, to be honest. It's not a bad brand but it's never seemed better than doing more damage.

[Sprucery]

I've never quite gotten the vamp love, to be honest. It's not a bad brand but it's never seemed better than doing more damage.

Have you played a game with a good vamp weapon?

[njvack]

Yeah? It seemed like a good brand but not necessarily better than doing more damage? Sometimes I have a roughly equivalent, say, vamp and freezing weapon and I normally wind up using the damage brand. I really want to like it. It might just be that I feel like I already hit tab like 20,000 times in a winning game and a weapon that lets me do that less is nice.

It's somewhat complicated by the fact that I often want to pincushion things with a bow or something, and vamp makes that extremely irritating to do.

[njvack]

Also, by "good" I mean things like lajatang and greatsword.

[DracheReborn]

Vamp doesn't do more damage, but it makes it very hard to die. Vamp and antimagic are good defensive brands.

[VeryAngryFelid]

For me vamp weapon saves real time and also replaces arrow keys, 5, q, r, v, i etc. with tab.

[njvack]

OK. I'm totally willing to believe I am just bad at using vamp somehow. Thanks!

[Sar]

<bmfx> minqmay: feel free to add it to ??bmfx, because i will stand by these words. any damaging (including vorpal) brand > vamp.

I guess different strokes?

[stickyfingers]

If vamp doesn't help you in any way, then you must be using really good tactics. Keep up the good work!

[VeryAngryFelid]

OK. I'm totally willing to believe I am just bad at using vamp somehow. Thanks!

Maybe your characters didn't have good defenses, I imagine it can be hard to tab monsters as Op or early Mu.

[Rast]

<bmfx> minqmay: feel free to add it to ??bmfx, because i will stand by these words. any damaging (including vorpal) brand > vamp.

I guess different strokes?

Yes. Also felid is the best race, spells above level 3 are bad, Call Merchant is bad, and all monsters with speed = 10 are harmless.

[Shard1697]

vamp weapon really really helps you go fast

[dowan]

A high damage weapon with vamp on a character with decent defenses can be awesome, never having to stop to heal up really speeds up the game. The best version of this is a vamp battleaxe, it's basically a free ticket to zot! Assuming you can keep your hubris in check...

I like to use a ranged weapon as well, and vamp really does get in the way of that. Vamp is in that really good but really annoying to use category for me.