FeAr^Gozag jewellery question


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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 01:32

FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

This is the first time I post in DCA, and it is because I have no clue what jewellery is best for my Felid (dump). The last one died with the orb, so I hope this time I can do better. I have three runes, innate rElec and horns and rMut level 1. Lack of rF is very noticeable. This character has extremely high stealth, so the idea is not to fight everything (which I am bad at).

What I wear:
  Code:
the amulet of Vitality (around neck) {Regen+ HP+15}
the ring "Gofare" (left paw) {Str+4 Int+8 Dex+4}
+6 ring of evasion (right paw)

What I carry, containing all the goodies just collected in V:5:
  Code:
+5 ring of slaying
the amulet of Mistrust {Reflect rF+ Dex+4 SH+3}
the amulet of Zacymep {RegenMP MP+9 Str+2 Int+4 Stlth+}
the amulet "Exirch" {rElec MR+ Regen+}
the ring of Molilorphu {rPois rF+ Stlth+}
the amulet of Xom's Malicious Joy {Dismiss MR+}

Some potentially interesting items in shops:
  Code:
the ring of Roemerewn {rN+ Str+2 Int-4 Slay+6} (2212 gold)
+5 ring of protection (1155 gold)
the amulet of the Four Winds {rN+ MR+++ Clar} (299 gold)
the ring of Roemerewn {rN+ Str+2 Int-4 Slay+6} (2212 gold)
the ring of Shaolin {EV+8} (1920 gold)

What combination of amulet and rings would you recommend for Zot?

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 01:41

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Guardian spirit would be the best amulet for this character since it is a felid. If it's not available then that reflection amulet is probably best in zot.

Other than that, it's good to see you've improved your skill training, and WHY ARE YOU CARRYING SCROLLS OF ACQUIREMENT INSTEAD OF READING THEM

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 02:08

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

You need rF+. OOF can one shot you without it. rF++ would be better.
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 07:27

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Why do you have multiple phials and fans in your inventory? Have they been changed in Trunk somehow?

dpeg wrote:The last one died with the orb

It is a well known fact that whenever someone dies with the Orb, devs celebrate and raise toasts. But what happens when that someone is a dev himself?
DCSS: 96:...{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu
{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}
{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCj{DEEE
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 11:08

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Sprucery wrote:Why do you have multiple phials and fans in your inventory? Have they been changed in Trunk somehow?

No, that's pointless. Only misc evokables that are useful in multiples are those that stack.

It is a well known fact that whenever someone dies with the Orb, devs celebrate and raise toasts. But what happens when that someone is a dev himself?

They get sad drunk instead.

Regarding the topic - I'd wear vitality, shaolin and +5 protection by default. I know it wasn't part of the question, but I'd also have bought Konwac's Papyrus of Unstable Envenoming and learned either statue or dragon form. There may be not enough experience available for that as of now, though.
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 11:14

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

I'd wear this:
the amulet of Mistrust {Reflect rF+ Dex+4 SH+3}
the ring of Molilorphu {rPois rF+ Stlth+}
the ring of Shaolin {EV+8}

OOFs are really scary for felid.

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 11:28

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

arandomperson12 wrote:You need rF+. OOF can one shot you without it. rF++ would be better.
I know but in this game I can (a) bribe Zot, probably three times, and (b) can buy potions before fights. I am not sure if I can rely on this to get around orbs of fire, but I guess I should firmly believe in the money.

Sprucery wrote:Why do you have multiple phials and fans in your inventory? Have they been changed in Trunk somehow?
No, this is sloppiness. This FeAr also relies much less on evokables thans the last one.

Sprucery wrote:It is a well known fact that whenever someone dies with the Orb, devs celebrate and raise toasts. But what happens when that someone is a dev himself?
They celebrate and raise toasts, of course. :)

stickyfingers wrote:I'd wear vitality, shaolin and +5 protection by default.
Interesting! It is clear that Vitality is a godsend for a Felid, but I wasn't sure if it power has somehow petered out by now.

stickyfingers wrote:I know it wasn't part of the question, but I'd also have bought Konwac's Papyrus of Unstable Envenoming and learned either statue or dragon form. There may be not enough experience available for that as of now, though.
Yes, if I fail again with stealth and hexes, I will take up transformations.

duvessa wrote:Guardian spirit would be the best amulet for this character since it is a felid. If it's not available then that reflection amulet is probably best in zot.
Guardian Spirit gives 42 HP via MP rather than the 15 HP of Vitality. But it lacks the Regen+ which I find to be pretty helpful. On my last run, I used a cool artefact GS amulet, but the lack of MP was painful. On the other hand, with GS, Gozag potions can safe lives through Heal Wounds *and* Magic. Too complicated for me...

duvessa wrote:Other than that, WHY ARE YOU CARRYING SCROLLS OF ACQUIREMENT INSTEAD OF READING THEM
BECAUSE YOU MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE EVERY SINGLE TIME: if you know what to acquire, then you should do it right away. If not, better to hold out. (Some people have trouble holding their pee.) A Felid cannot use armour or weapons. Gold is a good option, but I always had enough for Gozag potions, so didn't need it right away. Wands are another option, but I got all the wands I needed from floor and shops. This character is stuffed to the brim with good jewellery, so I don't think it is reasonable to take the very small chance for a killer artefact over the guaranteed gold. Now why not acquire gold anywhy then? Because it may be necessary to get food at some point, and then acquirement is cheaper than another shop.

BabyRage wrote:I'd wear this: the amulet of Mistrust {Reflect rF+ Dex+4 SH+3}, the ring of Molilorphu {rPois rF+ Stlth+}, the ring of Shaolin {EV+8}
OOFs are really scary for felid.
Yeah, I agree that is a very reasonable kit. Perhaps I should be flexible when orbs make it through the bribe.
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 11:40

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

You should switch out the ev ring for the ac ring in the shop. You should switch the stat ring for the rf+ artifact one. If you need the int for cblink, use brilliance in zot. I can see the argument for the reflect artifact amulet, but I would stay with vitality.

Between your stealth, consumables, and bribe branch on z5, I think you'll have no problem with this one.
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 11:58

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

I wonder when people will stop overestimating plain rings of protection on Felids. Go for resists or EV because AC 8 is almost indistinguishable from AC 3 unless you are fighting a rat or something. You don't even need fsim to realize that when you are hit for 50 damage once in a blue moon, it does not matter if the damage is reduced by 1, 5 or even 8 (the latter happens if you are very lucky, it has 11% chance).
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 13:30

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Good thing you rarely get hit for 50 in crawl, huh?
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 13:57

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

it is almost impossible to die as XL 23 Felid if you get hit for less than 50 damage.

edit. Usually felid gets damage like this: 0, 0, 0, 0, n, 0, 0, 0, 0, m... if n and m are not too high, felid can just regenerate them during fight or retreat without hurry.
if you get n, m, n, n etc. and n/m are not too high, you still should retreat. there is no danger of dying but it is better to reset the fight
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 14:16

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Actually, taking less damage is good.
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 14:24

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

I didn't suggest to keep the ring slot empty and there are better things for reducing damage: valuable resistance or extra ev. Reducing damage by 4 is almost meaningless when most hits miss anyway and you have 120+ HP.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 14:29

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

conveniently we had a very similar situation recently so you can just check viewtopic.php?f=12&t=21533&p=290997#p290997 and see how +5 AC and +8 EV help.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 14:37

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Not every enemy is a stone giant. Check for example a draconian monk or an executioner.

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:04

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

ac 3, ev 35

executioner;
  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      0,7 |      7 |      47% |   0,3 |   100  |  1,00 |      0,3
Defending:      8,0 |     37 |      69% |   5,6 |    50  |  2,00 |     11,1
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You remove your +5 ring of protection.
c - the ring of Shaolin (left paw) {EV+8}
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      0,7 |      7 |      45% |   0,3 |   100  |  1,00 |      0,3
Defending:      9,6 |     42 |      54% |   5,2 |    50  |  2,00 |     10,5



draconian monk;

  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      0,9 |      7 |      29% |   0,3 |   100  |  1,00 |      0,3
Defending:     13,4 |     56 |      81% |  10,9 |   100  |  1,00 |     10,9
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You remove your +5 ring of protection.
c - the ring of Shaolin (left paw) {EV+8}
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      0,9 |      7 |      29% |   0,3 |   100  |  1,00 |      0,3
Defending:     14,7 |     60 |      68% |  10,1 |   100  |  1,00 |     10,1


anything else? :)

sorry about lower case, my keyboard is dying :(
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:09

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

What stickyfingers says is on point. I'm way too buzzed to understand what the hell your fsim is supposed to be saying -- someone in a lab course should've taught you to label your data more carefully. What I do know is that average damage is not the end of the discussion when it comes to crawl defenses. This kind of silliness says, for example, that 30/10 defenses are about as good as 10/30 defenses, which they aren't by a damn sight.
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:11

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Check last column, AvEffDam. You might warn in advance that you don't understand fsim, then I would just ignore you as incompetent in this specific discussion about ac vs ev.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:14

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

also check MaxDam column, that ac ring reduces max damage from 42 to 37 or from 60 to 56, that will surely save you...
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:14

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

The problem is not the fsim tables, which are clear and well labeled.
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:17

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

so what's the problem? you don't know what 'You remove your +5 ring of protection.
c - the ring of Shaolin (left paw) {EV+8}' mean?
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:25

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

by the way felid don't have gdr so there is no any difference between ac and ev for it unless you are talking about fireball, for example.
if you are unlucky and got hit through ev 30, you can be as unlucky and get high damage through ac 30. someone should reread statistics courses.
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:39

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

+8 EV is always going to be better than +5 AC, I don't think anyone is surprised by this or would argue otherwise. Shaolin is a given. The question is whether +5 AC or +6 EV ring is better. I'm not sure which is optimal, personally I'd probably go for the AC though.

So I'd go with Shaolin and +5 protection, and OCD-style swap around for resistances tactically, which is what you usually have to do with Felids anyway.

This character has darkness, fast-move, speed wand and 7 ?recharging, cblink, high stealth (or will, once it stops glowing) and 9 scrolls of fog. And Bribe branch. It can manipulate LOS and avoid threats like crazy. The already very small time cost of swapping jewelry can become effectively zero for this character in particular, if it needs to swap around more than one piece of jewelry for an OoF, that's not a problem.

So keep on the jewelry with the most all-around utility, imo that is +8 EV and +5 AC, though I admit +6 EV could be better than latter.

To my mind the somewhat tough call is the amulet. I think I agree with duvessa that plain jane guardian spirit would be best, with the caveat that you be very careful about MP dropping too low for cblink. Carry the other two though, you can swap from g spirit to Vitality or Mistrust without penalty.

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:47

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Many thanks for the interesting discussion. The little Felid is safely home now, even with two spare lives.

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:55

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Disagree. +5 ac was better than +8 ev for this character.
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 15:57

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

ev+5 is still better than +5 ac but you might use it, the difference is low enough.

draconian monk

  Code:
          AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      0,9 |      6 |      28% |   0,3 |   100  |  1,00 |      0,3
Defending:     15,6 |     64 |      73% |  11,4 |   100  |  1,00 |     11,4
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You remove your +5 ring of evasion.
d - a +5 ring of protection (left paw)
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      0,9 |      5 |      29% |   0,3 |   100  |  1,00 |      0,3
Defending:     13,5 |     52 |      81% |  11,1 |   100  |  1,00 |     11,1
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 16:04

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

what I learned from this thread is that people underestimate ev and overestimate ac.

still draconian monk

  Code:
          AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      0,9 |      5 |      27% |   0,2 |   100  |  1,00 |      0,2
Defending:      6,5 |     51 |      88% |   5,7 |   100  |  1,00 |      5,7
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You remove your +25 ring of protection.
c - the ring of Shaolin (left paw) {EV+25}
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      1,0 |      8 |      27% |   0,3 |   100  |  1,00 |      0,3
Defending:     12,4 |     52 |      46% |   5,8 |   100  |  1,00 |      5,8


ac 28, ev 35 and ac 3, ev 60 give pretty close defense

edit. oh, and the max damage is almost identical because of no-gdr thing...
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 16:09

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

by the way draconian monk is bad monster for the test because it has several low attacks.
here is vs hill giant

  Code:
          AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      1,7 |      9 |      83% |   1,4 |   100  |  1,00 |      1,4
Defending:     10,4 |     44 |      13% |   1,4 |   100  |  1,00 |      1,4
Put on which piece of jewellery? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You remove your +25 ring of protection.
e - a +25 ring of evasion (left paw)
Enter Wizard Command (? - help):
Enter monster name (or MONS spec):
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      1,7 |     10 |      84% |   1,5 |   100  |  1,00 |      1,5
Defending:     21,6 |     46 |       6% |   1,4 |   100  |  1,00 |      1,4


still pretty close...
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 16:11

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

goodcoolguy wrote:Disagree. +5 ac was better than +8 ev for this character.

Can you actually explain why and why that directly contradicts fsim results, or is that just "I'm right because I'm right"?

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 16:13

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

I guess the confusion is caused by belief that it is better to get 2 hits with 25 damage each than 1 hit with 50 damage. but problem is that you still can get 50 damage several times in a row because you have no gdr no matter what ring you choose
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 16:16

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

goodcoolguy wrote:Disagree. +5 ac was better than +8 ev for this character.


Sorry, I hope my post didn't sound pretentious, then.

I like a split of AC and EV when possible, that is, when either is very low for a character I tend to value it more. But the difference between 8 and 5 is considerable.

Anyway I don't pretend to know the finer details of EV and when (if?) it hits diminishing returns. So I can't speak to what is "optimal" here, especially since felids are so unusual to begin with.

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 16:49

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Wow, even developers ask for advice and then don't take it.

and into wrote:+8 EV is always going to be better than +5 AC
How do people muster enough cognitive dissonance to believe things like this? If this were true, why would anyone ever wear heavy armour?

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 17:04

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

duvessa wrote:Wow, even developers ask for advice and then don't take it.

and into wrote:+8 EV is always going to be better than +5 AC
How do people muster enough cognitive dissonance to believe things like this? If this were true, why would anyone ever wear heavy armour?


"Always" was an overstatement I guess, but I obviously meant this in the context of this discussion, +5 ring of protection vs. Shaolin. I don't know, it is hard to imagine many cases where I would wear the former over the latter. [edit: and realistically a character like this is about the closest I might come, but I think I'd go with Shaolin. Maybe that isn't the best choice here, though, as I admitted.]

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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 22:28

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

duvessa wrote:Wow, even developers ask for advice and then don't take it.
Is there a word for the cognitive mismatch between "did not take MY advice" and "don't take advice"?

For the record: I started with Vitality; Str+4 Dex+4 Int+8; EV+6 and, after reading the answers, finished with Vitality; rF rPois Stealth; EV+8.

Anyway, many thanks again for looking at my character. I never played Felids, and while they are incredibly narrow, I can now understand what kilobyte was going for. It's a very special experience, but was fun nonetheless.
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Post Friday, 30th September 2016, 22:44

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Check last column, AvEffDam. You might warn in advance that you don't understand fsim, then I would just ignore you as incompetent in this specific discussion about ac vs ev.

AvEffDam may not be the most appropriate measure how good a given set of AC/EV values are. Imagine you're at 99 HP, and consider the following two situations:


A:
10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10,
B:
0, 0, 0, 0, 100, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

I believe a measure of the "spikiness" of the damage distribution is what would be most appropriate, iirc this is like the 4th moment of the distribution, but it's been too long since I had undergrad stats. Experience tells me that in practice heavy armor tends to lead to lead to both low amounts of damage and low damage spikiness, partially because of GDR. Remember iron giant throwing? On the other hand, in light armor with high evasion, you can expect to take large hits fairly often.
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 01:20

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

dpeg wrote:Guardian Spirit gives 42 HP via MP rather than the 15 HP of Vitality. But it lacks the Regen+ which I find to be pretty helpful.
so I wanted to pick on this because there's really no way it makes sense
Let's suppose that gspirit "just" gives +42 effective HP whereas vitality gives +15 and Regen+, and the character already has more than 60 max HP. Regen+ is 0.4 hp per game turn (10 aut). To break even with guardian spirit in this case, the fight needs to last (42-15)/0.425 turns, or 635 aut.
BUT! Guardian spirit doesn't just give you extra max HP, it gives you extra regeneration, because MP also regenerates! With 42 max MP, you get 0.21 MP per game turn. So the fight actually needs to last 1256 aut before vitality breaks even.
Sure, the actual HP from guardian spirit is a little lower because sometimes you cast spells, but it still takes Regen+ a bit over 52 aut to catch up with the value of a single extra MP point.

Also, knowing what to acquire isn't a mistake.

melee fsims are really silly in this context because this sort of character is not threatened by melee.

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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 03:01

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

tabstorm wrote:AvEffDam may not be the most appropriate measure how good a given set of AC/EV values are. Imagine you're at 99 HP, and consider the following two situations:


A:
10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10,
B:
0, 0, 0, 0, 100, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

I believe a measure of the "spikiness" of the damage distribution is what would be most appropriate, iirc this is like the 4th moment of the distribution, but it's been too long since I had undergrad stats. Experience tells me that in practice heavy armor tends to lead to lead to both low amounts of damage and low damage spikiness, partially because of GDR. Remember iron giant throwing? On the other hand, in light armor with high evasion, you can expect to take large hits fairly often.


This argument does not apply, we are talking about 5 extra AC and 126 hp. See my first message in the thread, copied here for your convenience:

me wrote:I wonder when people will stop overestimating plain rings of protection on Felids. Go for resists or EV because AC 8 is almost indistinguishable from AC 3 unless you are fighting a rat or something. You don't even need fsim to realize that when you are hit for 50 damage once in a blue moon, it does not matter if the damage is reduced by 1, 5 or even 8 (the latter happens if you are very lucky, it has 11% chance).


Edit. I guess people like stereotypes: if +5 AC is better than +5 EV at AC 30 and EV 30 (my guess, I have not tested), then the same should be true for Felid.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 03:36

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

What tabstorm says is right. You want to consider not just the effect on measures like average and max damage, but also the probability of high damage.

I would also say, for this particular character at the point of the game under consideration, the real threats that can be addressed by ring selection are: Attacks that ignore ev but not ac and dodgeable high damage ranged attacks. For the former, obviously ac is better. For the latter, the difference made by additional ev is marginal and largely swamped out with use of r/dmsl -- though for whatever reason this character does not have rmsl.
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 04:54

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Ok, my last attempt, I am really tired to say the same thing with different words.
You can check those fsim and see that max hit damage is about the same, right? Because there is no gdr.
Also you can see that average damage per hit is higher for EV ring, right? because extra ac does help.
Now try to think why it happens that average total damage with ev ring is lower. Maybe that's because misses happen more often?
For some reason you (and tabstorm too, it seems) assume that we can ignore ev because it is possible to be hit 2,3 and so on times in a row. And at the same time you believe in ac that it will help with those hits. but you know what? you are less likely to be hit 2 times in a row than you are likely that those extra ac will make any literal difference. just look at that hill giant, at has 31% chance to hit once, so it has about 10% chance to hit twice.
what is the chance that your ac 8 saving throw will roll below 4 so it will be as bad as AC 3? roughly 50% or 1/2 (no gdr, remember?). so with two hits you have 25% chance that that extra ac will do literally nothing. and now see what you are doing: you are assuming that event with probability 10% will happen but event with probability 25% will not. it's like having 0.05% death event and 0.01% death event and you choose the latter as 'more likely', 'we should protect vs it and ignore the former event'. and the weirdest thing is that even if you are extremely lucky and roll max ac roll, how much are you saving comparing to ac 3 felid? 10 hitpoints. you are a felid with 126 hitpoints who was unlucky to get event with 10% chance and you saved 10 hitpoints with maximal possible luck
now look at felid who uses evasion ring. suddenly the hill giant has 21% chance instead of 31%, it is about 4% to be hit twice. 4% and instead of that you choose to increase that chance to 10% hoping that you will be extremely lucky (1/9^2=1/81) and will decrease damage from those two hits by 10?
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 05:20

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

The probability that the damage reduction to a given affected hit with damage at least 8 will be equal or less with 8 ac compared to 3 ac is as follows: 1/36 + 2/36 + 3/36 + 4/36 = 10/36. This means: You will take less damage with 8 ac most of the time.

It is true that I assume I will get hit when I play crawl, sometimes even more than once. As much as you may crunch the numbers, I find that this assumption rarely fails me in practice. I would also remind you that some of the stronger monsters in crawl have undodgeable attacks.
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 05:23

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

evasion curves level off at high enough ev for most melee threats...
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 12:38

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

goodcoolguy wrote:The probability that the damage reduction to a given affected hit with damage at least 8 will be equal or less with 8 ac compared to 3 ac is as follows: 1/36 + 2/36 + 3/36 + 4/36 = 10/36. This means: You will take less damage with 8 ac most of the time.


I don't get the math

It is true that I assume I will get hit when I play crawl, sometimes even more than once. As much as you may crunch the numbers, I find that this assumption rarely fails me in practice.


yes, let's prepare our character for 0.01% death event and let's ignore 0.05% death event

I would also remind you that some of the stronger monsters in crawl have undodgeable attacks.


I did recommend to use a ring with valuable resist instead of ac. that usually means rF+ and rPois since felid has rC naturally.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 12:52

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

In order to realistically model situations where you could plausibly die in endgame crawl, you have to look at outlier events. AC just does more to condition the tail of the damage distribution than EV does.
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 13:02

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

ring of shaolin decreases chance to be hit by hill giant from 31% to 21% for typical felid and hill giant can deal up to 45 damage. that's all you need to know about usefulness of ac+5 ring.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 13:12

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

goodcoolguy wrote:In order to realistically model situations where you could plausibly die in endgame crawl, you have to look at outlier events. AC just does more to condition the tail of the damage distribution than EV does.


I've just checked my games with felid.
online:

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 005106.txt
  Code:
 13149 | D:10     | HP: 2/42 [poisoned by a killer bee]
 13157 | D:10     | HP: 2/42 [poisoned by a killer bee]



http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/SlowThinker ... 031723.txt
  Code:
50399 | Lair:3   | HP: 3/75 [wolf spider (18)]
...
102484 | Depths:2 | Splashed by a caustic shrike's acid


offline games are much more interesting, for example febe:
  Code:
Lives:  1   Deaths: 1

33698 | Lair:8   | =================== Autoexit: lost:27 current:28
 34040 | Lair:8   | =================== Autoexit: lost:28 current:37
 34927 | Lair:8   | =================== Autoexit: lost:29 current:36
 34930 | Lair:8   | =================== Autoexit: lost:20 current:16
 35212 | Lair:8   | =================== Autoexit: lost:27 current:30
 35409 | Lair:8   | =================== Autoexit: lost:30 current:63

62947 | Elf:3    | =================== Autoexit: lost:55 current:27
 63007 | Elf:3    | =================== Autoexit: lost:48 current:37
 63131 | Elf:3    | =================== Autoexit: lost:32 current:34

112280 | Zot:1    | =================== Autoexit: lost:16 current:33
113984 | Zot:2    | =================== Autoexit: lost:32 current:58
114382 | Zot:2    | =================== Autoexit: lost:24 current:52

118739 | Zot:5    | =================== Autoexit: lost:38 current:71
118789 | Zot:5    | =================== Autoexit: lost:23 current:28

119016 | Zot:5    | Noticed an ancient lich
119034 | Zot:5    | =================== Autoexit: lost:78 current:37
119037 | Zot:5    | Killed an ancient lich
119660 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
119667 | Zot:5    | Noticed an ancient lich
119674 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
119681 | Zot:5    | Killed an orb of fire
119692 | Zot:5    | Killed an ancient lich
119702 | Zot:5    | Killed an orb of fire
119705 | Zot:5    | Blown up by an ancient lich
lack of autosave warnings here means I lost all hp without ever losing 40+% percent of my life while still being alive
119706 | Zot:5    | Reached XP level 26. HP: -9/138 MP: 44/44
119750 | Zot:5    | Killed an ancient lich


It makes obvious to me that +5ac is pretty useless for late game felid but I realize that you still disagree.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 13:25

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

Hm, yes, I too play an unhealthy amount of crawl.
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Post Saturday, 1st October 2016, 13:56

Re: FeAr^Gozag jewellery question

I got a new argument. the more often you are hit, the more useful extra ac becomes because it is applied more often. and felid is not hit often, right?
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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