The Tavern

This isn't as complex as it may sound, barring barring their air aptitudes being different. If and when High Elves are removed, I propose Deep Elf;

Short Blades: 0 --> 1
Long Blades: -1 --> 0
Polearms: -3 --> -2
Shields: -2 --> -1
Armour: -2 --> -1
Translocation: 1 --> 2

These changes make Deep Elf less reliant on a book, though they still are very attached to one. Of course, High Elf and Deep Elf have different apts based partly on their homes, and with no place for a Deep Elf to grasp the powers of air...

Air Magics: 0 --> -3

...It becomes their worst apt, matching their long distance cousins, the Deep Dwarf. Trolls are still the lowest with -4.

I'm hoping that we can still have a low health fighter with slow gains that can evolve into a powerful hybrid that isn't restricted to a staff and a buckler for the resistances and spellpower.

EDIT :: No, Tengu is not my idea of a low health fighter.

Mod edit: topic drifted into advice, moved from GDD

Changing aptitude by 1 is almost meaningless IMHO.

I think you meant Armour skill rather than Dodging in the OP.

Seems silly to give deep elves a bad magic aptitude in anything, even (despite their name) air magic. Their niche is "frail, but good at all the magic stuff, and extremely good at some of the magic stuff."

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Changing aptitude by 1 is almost meaningless IMHO.

In my experience, it means more at higher levels. It's especially noticeable between 20 through 26, haven't studied elsewhere.

Wouldn't it be better to just edit tengu and let DE be an all around squishy wizard?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Changing aptitude by 1 is almost meaningless IMHO.

But changing several aptitudes by 1 is more meaningful, e.g. by having good all-around defenses for somewhat less XP.

Airwolf wrote:But changing several aptitudes by 1 is more meaningful, e.g. by having good all-around defenses for somewhat less XP.

I am not sure. If you are training many skills, you don't train them high. If you are training just a few skills, -1 difference is insignificant.
In this specific case this is even more true:
Short Blades: 0 --> 1 Still easy to get dagger to min delay
Long Blades: -1 --> 0 one-handed long blades don't require much XP
Polearms: -3 --> -2 Anyone using it as DE?
Shields: -2 --> -1 Buckler is still easy, regular shield is still bad
Armour: -2 --> -1 Not many DE train Armour high
Translocation: 1 --> 2 Aux school and you don't need much for Passage of Golubria as DE with high Int unless you go for CBlink which is bad idea unless you are in extended

If you want to nerf DE, decrease Spellcasting and Conjurations aptitude by -2 IMHO. Not sure why you would like to nerf DE though.

Elitist wrote:EDIT :: No, Tengu is not my idea of a low health fighter.

Why not? It's low health and has good fighting apts.

Elitist wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Changing aptitude by 1 is almost meaningless IMHO.

In my experience, it means more at higher levels. It's especially noticeable between 20 through 26, haven't studied elsewhere.

I don't think it's any more noticeable there. In any case, how many skills do you train to 20+ usually?

Shard1697 wrote:
Elitist wrote:EDIT :: No, Tengu is not my idea of a low health fighter.
Why not? It's low health and has good fighting apts.

For me its because they have low hps and are missing aux armour slots, this makes them a little too fragile for me, personally.

Aux attacks are fine, low hps are fine, low hps *plus* low aux slots sucks for being in melee range, and aux attacks dont make up for it.

Siegurt wrote:Aux attacks are fine, low hps are fine, low hps *plus* low aux slots sucks for being in melee range, and aux attacks dont make up for it.

That's the point of low HP fighter IMHO. Nobody is calling Gr low hp fighter, right?

Sprucery wrote:
Elitist wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Changing aptitude by 1 is almost meaningless IMHO.

In my experience, it means more at higher levels. It's especially noticeable between 20 through 26, haven't studied elsewhere.

I don't think it's any more noticeable there. In any case, how many skills do you train to 20+ usually?

Usually one, but I like the titles you get at 27 skill, so I may not be a good reference. I usually raise skills higher than minimum delay because I don't like being drained into slow swing speed, or as to cause my shield to ruin my spellcasting. I like it with invocations sometimes and evocations always, they feel like good investments.

Shard1697 wrote:
Elitist wrote:EDIT :: No, Tengu is not my idea of a low health fighter.
Why not? It's low health and has good fighting apts.

Tengu has restricted slots which makes them less appealing to me as melee characters because their overall AC is going to be lower than, say, a Deep Elf. In addition, I'm hoping to make DE's a more appealing hybrid race, whereas Tengu is more geared towards blasting things away with powerful conjurations rather than using spell and sword evenly.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Aux attacks are fine, low hps are fine, low hps *plus* low aux slots sucks for being in melee range, and aux attacks dont make up for it.

That's the point of low HP fighter IMHO. Nobody is calling Gr low hp fighter, right?

GDR is so powerful, and with rElec stopping such a significant portion of damage that partially bypasses AC, that Gargoyle's low HP only matters the most being smited (happens reasonably often through the game) or being shattered (I think a pan lord did this to me once, Jorgrun twice). I do not want to make low HP fighters with Gargoyle as the benchmark.

High elf was already merged with deep elf.

Tengu does not have as balanced aptitudes as Deep Elf has. If you are going to make DE a hybrid, then we don't have any species for playing as "pure" casters.

This is veering more toward advice than game design.

Let's try to keep this thread in GDD. If HE are removed (not definite yet), what if anything should be done to other species? (By comparison, when mountain dwarves were removed, hill orcs had some of their aptitudes shuffled around a bit.)

Elitist wrote:Tengu has restricted slots which makes them less appealing to me as melee characters because their overall AC is going to be lower than, say, a Deep Elf.

They have restricted slots because they have talons+beak which do extra damage in melee...

and into wrote:This is veering more toward advice than game design.

Let's try to keep this thread in GDD. If HE are removed (not definite yet), what if anything should be done to other species? (By comparison, when mountain dwarves were removed, hill orcs had some of their aptitudes shuffled around a bit.)

If HE is removed, I would like to see the changes to Deep Elf that were proposed in this thread implemented. For a more palpable gauge, I would like to see Deep Elf Skald become a highlighted option in the role selection screen.

Shard1697 wrote:
Elitist wrote:Tengu has restricted slots which makes them less appealing to me as melee characters because their overall AC is going to be lower than, say, a Deep Elf.
They have restricted slots because they have talons+beak which do extra damage in melee...

I would very much rather have more AC, plus talons are there to stop Tengu from wearing boots of running theoretically.

But they get the -0.1 move delay from their flight anyways, they essentially always have boots of running once they get permanent flight.

Shard1697 wrote:But they get the -0.1 move delay from their flight anyways, they essentially always have boots of running once they get permanent flight.

I would rather have the boots and the AC, even if their bonus EV is cool for riposting. I'd like to think artifacts could allow for more versatility, and Deep Elves have one and a half more slots than Tengu. Tengu gets two auxiliary attacks in exchange, which are not very great to me.

Elitist wrote:I would rather have the boots and the AC, even if their bonus EV is cool for riposting.

Except you usually don't get boots of running, while tengus always get flight.

Elitist wrote:I'd like to think artifacts could allow for more versatility, and Deep Elves have one and a half more slots than Tengu. Tengu gets two auxiliary attacks in exchange, which are not very great to me.

If your idea of "low health fighter" isn't "fragile, but good at putting out damage in melee" idk what to say. HP malus+damage bodyslot mutations fits this niche very well.

Do the tengu aux attacks even do much against lategame and extended enemies with high ac?

Not that much, but a bit-however, there are not many enemies with significant AC.Throughout a game you will generally be fighting enemies that are meaningfully affected by damage bodyslot mutations. And as usual, you should be more concerned about earlygame(and to some extent, midgame) than lategame-by that time you'll have had plenty of XP and big weapons to take.

Shard1697 wrote:
Elitist wrote:I would rather have the boots and the AC, even if their bonus EV is cool for riposting.
Except you usually don't get boots of running, while tengus always get flight.
Elitist wrote:I'd like to think artifacts could allow for more versatility, and Deep Elves have one and a half more slots than Tengu. Tengu gets two auxiliary attacks in exchange, which are not very great to me.
If your idea of "low health fighter" isn't "fragile, but good at putting out damage in melee" idk what to say. HP malus+damage bodyslot mutations fits this niche very well.

I will always settle for a good pair of boots over a minor to moderate increase to damage against opponents with light AC.

I think a low health fighter can be bolstered by charms and hexes and still be an effective slayer, which is why I want to see this merge happen if High Elf is gone. I want to preserve the play style.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:If you are going to make DE a hybrid, then we don't have any species for playing as "pure" casters.

Except naga, human, draconian, felid, mummy, octopode, gargoyle...

Elitist wrote:I will always settle for a good pair of boots over a minor to moderate increase to damage against opponents with light AC.

But it's not just the damage-you trade boots for that damage plus an EV boost(which is equal or better than the AC from boots, because it's +20% ev not a flat amount) and also faster movespeed. Which starts duration-based but becomes unlimited later. And your head slot you don't lose, you just have a restriction in exchange for damage.

BabyRage wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:If you are going to make DE a hybrid, then we don't have any species for playing as "pure" casters.

Except naga, human, draconian, felid, mummy, octopode, gargoyle...

Notice I did say "pure" casters. DE is the best for killing everything without running out of MP too often, those species have bad aptitudes in magic/spellcasting and Int (comparing to DE). DE is Mi of magic

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
BabyRage wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:If you are going to make DE a hybrid, then we don't have any species for playing as "pure" casters.

Except naga, human, draconian, felid, mummy, octopode, gargoyle...

Notice I did say "pure" casters. DE is the best for killing everything without running out of MP too often, those species have bad aptitudes in magic/spellcasting and Int (comparing to DE). DE is Mi of magic

Yeah. This is basically the same as saying "if you remove Mi, then we won't have any species to play as pure melee".

Shard1697 wrote:
Elitist wrote:I will always settle for a good pair of boots over a minor to moderate increase to damage against opponents with light AC.
But it's not just the damage-you trade boots for that damage plus an EV boost(which is equal or better than the AC from boots, because it's +20% ev not a flat amount) and also faster movespeed. Which starts duration-based but becomes unlimited later. And your head slot you don't lose, you just have a restriction in exchange for damage.

Well, I suppose you're right. Alright, Tengu can be the heavy melee damage fragile dodge-y fighters. I'd like Deep Elf to be the Buff/Hex based fragile fighters.

At the end of the day, I really want my High Elf.

BabyRage wrote:If you are going to make DE a hybrid, then we don't have any species for playing as "pure" casters..

I'd like DE to have hybrid potential is all.

You'd be well served by using the word "hybrid" less. When that word meets the inexperienced player, it's like when a pocket dictionary meets a salad shooter.

Some points:

1. It is perfectly possible and reasonable to play a Deep Elf in a "hybrid" style. They're bad in a way that all DEs are.

2. Aptitudes are not very important in general and are not what make the difference between a character "with hybrid potential" and one without. More important are issues like hp, availability of ac with lighter armor, and god selection.

3. High elf was never especially good at "hybrids," this is wikitalk. Both HE and DE have always been worse at their perceived niches than other species because speed and hp are far more important than aptitudes and there are other species with better speed or better hp that have acceptable aptitudes for those niches.

BabyRage wrote:Yeah. This is basically the same as saying "if you remove Mi, then we won't have any species to play as pure melee".

Naga as pure caster is suicide, human is better as hybrid, draconian is better as hybrid, felid is fast and fragile, mummy as pure caster is almost suicide, octopode is somewhat ok except it is still too different from most species, gargoyle is better as hybrid. Yeah, Deep Elf is the only species who is played easier as "pure" caster no matter what element you choose/start with.

If HE is removed I could maybe see giving deep elves a +3 bow aptitude and +1 in long blades. Not that it would matter too much, but it would make the high elf superfluousness total, similar to the aptitude tinkering done to hill orcs with MD removal.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Naga as pure caster is suicide, human is better as hybrid, draconian is better as hybrid, [...] mummy as pure caster is almost suicide, [...] gargoyle is better as hybrid.

none of this is true

and into wrote:If HE is removed I could maybe see giving deep elves a +3 bow aptitude and +1 in long blades. Not that it would matter too much, but it would make the high elf superfluousness total, similar to the aptitude tinkering done to hill orcs with MD removal.

That'll do, I couldn't complain about that.

Sandman, your definition of "pure caster" doesn't exclude zero skill weapon use does it?

Anyways, this talk of "better as something other than pure caster" is nonsense. There are people out there who say that DEBe is the best DE for winning the game. If you *want* to play a caster, it hardly matters if the species you pick is better as a melee-dude. You can still play it as a caster.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
BabyRage wrote:Yeah. This is basically the same as saying "if you remove Mi, then we won't have any species to play as pure melee".

Naga as pure caster is suicide, human is better as hybrid, draconian is better as hybrid, felid is fast and fragile, mummy as pure caster is almost suicide, octopode is somewhat ok except it is still too different from most species, gargoyle is better as hybrid. Yeah, Deep Elf is the only species who is played easier as "pure" caster no matter what element you choose/start with.

I don't know what your definition of hybrid is, but I don't agree with this post at all. I'd argue that mummy can be a better caster than DE, because of no hunger and channel abuse (more comfortable to play at least). And mummy has normal HP.
Anyway, we are really going off topic with this.

You can't channel abuse any more,costs piety now.

ydeve wrote:Sandman, your definition of "pure caster" doesn't exclude zero skill weapon use does it?

Anyways, this talk of "better as something other than pure caster" is nonsense. There are people out there who say that DEBe is the best DE for winning the game. If you *want* to play a caster, it hardly matters if the species you pick is better as a melee-dude. You can still play it as a caster.

Yes, my "pure" caster does not do anything except cast spells and use consumables. Even running away is not an option

I tried Mi and Tr as "pure" caster, they always die on D1.

1. If you want hybrid, go HO. HO is seriously HE but better. I was skeptical until I tried it.

2. I do like the idea of buffing DE bows and LB though, as those were two things I always felt were very elf-y

TeshiAlair wrote:1. If you want hybrid, go HO. HO is seriously HE but better. I was skeptical until I tried it.

2. I do like the idea of buffing DE bows and LB though, as those were two things I always felt were very elf-y

I have, but it's not very support/buff based. It's more blaster oriented. I respect their affinity to fire. I wouldn't ask if I didn't know.

arandomperson12 wrote:You can't channel abuse any more,costs piety now.

It is known as a "staff of energy", and it is free for Mu. It is rarer than the God of Free MP at the Expense of Nomming One Extra Chunk used to be.

jwoodward48ss wrote:
arandomperson12 wrote:You can't channel abuse any more,costs piety now.

It is known as a "staff of energy", and it is free for Mu. It is rarer than the God of Free MP at the Expense of Nomming One Extra Chunk used to be.

It is only 1-3 mp per turn though, sort of slow midcombat.

Doesn't it scale with Evo? Didn't old Sif Channel scale with Invo?

arandomperson12 wrote:
jwoodward48ss wrote:
arandomperson12 wrote:You can't channel abuse any more,costs piety now.

It is known as a "staff of energy", and it is free for Mu. It is rarer than the God of Free MP at the Expense of Nomming One Extra Chunk used to be.

It is only 1-3 mp per turn though, sort of slow midcombat.

Doesn't it scale with evo?

According to wiki, it restores 1-3 mp per evoke, and evocations skill only increases success rate. I used it a lot during my last game (6634 times), but I did not pay attention to how much mp I got back each time.

They scaled very differently. Old Sif channeling gave more MP based on invocation skill, staff of energy (formerly: channeling) gave a small amount of MP regardless of skill level, with a chance of failure that decreased with evocations skill.

Can't recall exactly off the top of my head, but something like 8 invo Sif channeling was as good or better than 27 evoc staff channeling, I think, and Sif's version only got better with more investment from there. The difference was pretty stark.

[edit: oops, should refresh before posting!]

sif channeling was better at 5 invo

Yes, and call it Mountain Dwarf.

TLDR: The thread where people just literally make shit up to support their argument.

Actually... that's basically the tldr for the entire internet. Actually... more like the TLDR for human history....

Siegurt wrote:
Shard1697 wrote:
Elitist wrote:EDIT :: No, Tengu is not my idea of a low health fighter.
Why not? It's low health and has good fighting apts.

For me its because they have low hps and are missing aux armour slots, this makes them a little too fragile for me, personally.
Aux attacks are fine, low hps are fine, low hps *plus* low aux slots sucks for being in melee range, and aux attacks dont make up for it.

The thing with Tengu is: In the early game, you can literally put 100% of your XP into dodging until xlvl 5 or so and your melee damage output would still be higher than that of a comparable human who trained only his weapon skill. (Tested in fsim against a hound.)

Not that I'd recommend this, because orc priests do exist. But 50%-50% or even 33% weapon skill and 66% dodging is perfectly reasonable. (I rarely bother with "train only a single skill at a time".)

In the middle and late game, you're giving up -- I don't know -- 6AC or at the very most 8AC? But you get a sizeable EV bonus in return and you are already wearing your boots of running.

Tengu are IMO seriously underrated, even as melee starts. I, for my humble part, would rank them as upper mid-tier. Comparing a dodging-heavy TeGl with a HuGl standard built, I'd say the TeGl has an easier time at xlvl 1 (which many regard as the most dangerous time) then quickly drops to being slightly worse than the human until xlvl 5, when the Te has the edge again.

How do people think Tengu is a good low-health fighter when it's terrible at fighting? VS and Gr are low-health fighters. Even Ha or Ko can be seen as low health fighters except they get their EV bonus on D:1. You can't be a good low-health fighter when you're missing an armor slot, have another restricted slot that could well go unfilled all game, and don't get any evasion bonus until XL5 (I think?).

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