Acid/corrosion

[Lasty]

Mod edit: split from GDD

The thing that jumps out at me on that won't do list is the claim that "monster corrosion is mostly insignificant". I've been thinking acid was one of the most valuable wands because I *thought* it seemed like the monsters were much more vulnerable while corroded.

The "won't do list" was written back when corroding a monster meant -1 AC only when the monster was wearing armour. These days it's something like -8 AC whether or not the monster uses equipment.

[duvessa]

it's still insignificant

[njvack]

it's still insignificant

Why? Is it because monster AC doesn't actually matter much (I rather thought it did) or because there aren't enough sources of monster corrosion, so you can't reliably apply the debuff?

[duvessa]

it's still insignificant

Why? Is it because monster AC doesn't actually matter much (I rather thought it did) or because there aren't enough sources of monster corrosion, so you can't reliably apply the debuff?

an average increase of 4 damage per attack at best (most monsters have less than 8 AC), or 12 for sandblast/LRD i guess, is not worth the turn it takes to apply it compared to just using something that does more damage in the first place

[Seven Deadly Sins]

it's still insignificant

Why? Is it because monster AC doesn't actually matter much (I rather thought it did) or because there aren't enough sources of monster corrosion, so you can't reliably apply the debuff?

an average increase of 4 damage per attack at best (most monsters have less than 8 AC), or 12 for sandblast/LRD i guess, is not worth the turn it takes to apply it compared to just using something that does more damage in the first place

That depends on the situation - Wands of Acid are good because a melee character can apply the debuff at range. I do think that monster corrosion could be more impactful, though.

Makes me think - is Punk's corrosion brand actually worth it, and would it be competitive as a general brand?

e: Also, it depends on the situation - if you're using a fast low-damage weapon, getting that increased ability to beat armor can be hugely beneficial, which is probably why having a Sling of corrosion is a neat idea.

[arandomperson12]

That depends on the situation - Wands of Acid are good because a melee character can apply the debuff at range. I do think that monster corrosion could be more impactful, though.

Makes me think - is Punk's corrosion brand actually worth it, and would it be competitive as a general brand?

e: Also, it depends on the situation - if you're using a fast low-damage weapon, getting that increased ability to beat armor can be hugely beneficial, which is probably why having a Sling of corrosion is a neat idea.

Depending on how much extra damage it does, it will be competitive. Almost nothing resists corrosion/acid, and the AC reduction will be a nice bonus.

[Airwolf]

I just played a MuFi where I trained Slings from 0 to 14 in V:5 and early Z for the new Punk. It felt very strong, even in Z:5.

[lethediver]

Wait, wand of acid doesnt already lower enemy ac? Then what the hell did you even put it in the game for? To trick us? To teach us a valuable lesson that "nothing is ever intuitive"...? Do u know how many times i already acid wanded things thinking i could melee them down easier?


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>=0

[Sar]

I think it lowers it by 8 points.

[stickyfingers]

Yes, it does. Although it doesn't really change the outcome of an encounter, unless you're using short blades for not-stabbing. Don't do that.

[Sprucery]

Isn't lowering enemy AC comparable to having +slaying (against stuff with AC)?

[dowan]

Can we stop playing "Try to interpret duvessa's clearly false one liner to be correct".

Clearly 8 slaying matters, and most monsters you would consider using a high end wand against have AC. Even if they didn't it'd be worth using against those who did.

[duvessa]

the corrosion is insignificant because in any practical situation, it should not change your actions. let's say you sacced a hand and you're being bad and fighting two monsters in melee at once, an ice fiend and [your favourite monster here]. when you kill the ice fiend, if you switch from your ring of protection from cold to your +8 ring of slaying before killing the other monster, you are either grievously misinformed or just stupid. the time it takes to perform the ring switch means you lost at least 1 attack; your subsequent attacks will do more damage, but you will still kill the monster slower overall because you wasted time switching rings.
the same situation happens with corrosion. if you choose to use a lower-damage attack that applies corrosion, instead of a higher-damage attack that doesn't, it is overwhelmingly likely that you are being stupid for the same reason; you took away a bunch of your damage in your quest to do more damage.
if the corrosion attack is your most damaging one, then the corrosion is still insignificant, because you'd be using the corrosion attack anyway because it's your most damaging one; this is why wand of acid is still useful. the corrosion adds some damage to your 2nd and subsequent attacks, yes, but the potential of this to actually change the outcome of a fight is pretty much nonexistent. this is also true for +8 slaying or +8 ac or whatever unless you find it extremely early in the game; you will find vanishingly few cases where you actually would have won with slaying and "lost" in any fashion without it, and the situation is considerably worse with corrosion because it doesn't help your first attack. (if you do find corrosion extremely early in the game, then NOTHING has 8 ac unless it found a plate armour on the ground or something, so it's not like +8 slaying even on the 2nd and subsequent attacks)
sure, it's possible for the corrosion to make a difference in whether you should zap a wand of acid or not, use Punk or not, enslave a jelly or not, whatever. but such a situation is so unlikely to occur in practice that it's safe to dismiss. i know exactly what corrosion does, i have zapped wand of acid plenty of times, but i have never, ever zapped it for the corrosion, only for the immediate damage.

i never said monster corrosion literally does nothing, or that 8 slaying doesn't matter

[BabyRage]

So why do we enchant weapons? There's no difference between +0 and +9 battleaxe unless we find it extremely early in the game, because we will find vanishingly few cases where we actually would have won with +9 slaying and "lost" in any fashion without it.

[duvessa]

1. if there were scrolls of adding corrosion brand to weapons without overwriting the existing brand, they'd still be worth using, just like enchant weapon scrolls
2. why are you people equating corrosion with slaying when corrosion does not help with the first attack

[NhorianScum]

Why are we comparing a meme ring swap to something mostly available in the form of an unresisted ranged line AoE damage/debuff.

I mean it's not ohkoing non popcorn past early game but the damage + corrode is generally comparable to a potion of might in killhole settings even very late game.

[Midn8]

Acid is only an interesting mechanic when you get to apply it at range or for free. While I wouldn't waste a turn changing to +8 slay, I would spend a turn on which I would be doing nothing but getting into melee range or waiting for a monster to get close applying acid; this is why yellow draconians are so good.

In addition, the most common player source of acid damage happens to be in convienent bolt form, allowing the preperation of multiple +8 slays on a single turn. The second most common (acidic bite) is applied automatically and for free.