Riposte and *Rage?

[arandomperson12]

I was wielding the sword of jihad as a DrCj for the rN+ (only 2 sources of that generated yet, that and a ring), and I got beserked when I riposted an attack. Fortunately, I was at high hp, so I survived, then I hasted myself and managed to get away. Should I stop wielding it as a resist-stick? Without it, I get drained much more.

[CypherZel]

The real question is, are you a true martyr of the great shining one?

[nago]

From this commit

  Code:

Disable hydra head-cutting on riposte (|amethyst)

I dislike the added complexity, but there seems to be some feeling
that automatic retaliation effects like riposte shouldn't punish
the player. In testing, the difference seems fairly minimal;
hydras don't miss that much, even against 30-40+ EV characters.

I'd say there's enough affinity to ask via a mantis ticket or a topic in GDD to disable also *berserk from riposte (and actually any general bad effect).

[CypherZel]

From this commit

  Code:

Disable hydra head-cutting on riposte (|amethyst)

I dislike the added complexity, but there seems to be some feeling
that automatic retaliation effects like riposte shouldn't punish
the player. In testing, the difference seems fairly minimal;
hydras don't miss that much, even against 30-40+ EV characters.

I'd say there's enough affinity to ask via a mantis ticket or a topic in GDD to disable also *berserk from riposte (and actually any general bad effect).

Why? Riposte is attacking

[nago]

Why? Riposte is attacking

  Code:

 but there seems to be some feeling
that automatic retaliation effects like riposte shouldn't punish
the player.

[CypherZel]

Why? Riposte is attacking

  Code:

 but there seems to be some feeling
that automatic retaliation effects like riposte shouldn't punish
the player.

So just because you "feel" like this shouldn't happen it shouldn't?

All of this can be easily circumvented by using 5 auts to change weapons or don't use the weapon at all. It's a feature that makes logical sense, doesn't matter if you feel as though it's inconvenient

[nago]

Are you serious or trolling?

That "feeling" is "devs feeling", not mine.
And yes that usually means that something in the game change, like the fact risposte doesn't cut hydras' heads or there aren't D&d dwarves in the game anymore because is what development is.

For the same reasoning behind that "feeling", *I* think other bad effects should be removed by riposte, because usually a good development plan considers things to be coherent - not that DCSS manages to do that always - and that is enough to ask a commit about it.

If the devs "felt" plain hob\goblin should fart big pinky candies when moving that would have gone in the game too. However then it would be have been resonable to ask also Robin and Ijyb would do that too for the same reasons the first commit was added, not because *I* *do* think Robin and Ijyb should fart big pinky candies when moving.

edit: just to be a little less ironic. I *do* think both Hydras and Risposte should be removed from the game.
The former because it has a silly gimmick only for lore reasons and having a bad mechanism in the game it is a not good thing by itself, and much more if it is unique, fiddly and existent only for "lore" reason - when most of "lore" reasons has been taken out from DCSS in favour of clarity, coherence, balance etc.
Riposte because is a complex mechanics, which has various unforeseen and probably unwanted side-effects, is a nightmare to balance, it is unclear at best for players, add a lot of spam worthless messages and add or change virtually *nothing* from the point of view of gameplay - e.g. using a mace works practically the same of a sword except the second has now a shitload of weird rules, while on the other hand polearms and axes add some new sigfniciant tactics and differences in the game. (I'm not commenting about the goodness of cleaving or reaching).

[CypherZel]

Are you serious or trolling?

That "feeling" is "devs feeling", not mine.
And yes that usually means that something in the game change, like the fact risposte doesn't cut hydras' heads or there aren't D&d dwarves in the game anymore because is what development is.

For the same reasoning behind that "feeling", *I* think other bad effects should be removed by riposte, because usually a good development plan considers things to be coherent - not that DCSS manages to do that always - and that is enough to ask a commit about it.

If the devs "felt" plain hob\goblin should fart big pinky candies when moving that would have gone in the game too. However then it would be have been resonable to ask also Robin and Ijyb would do that too for the same reasons the first commit was added, not because *I* *do* think Robin and Ijyb should fart big pinky candies when moving.

edit: just to be a little less ironic. I *do* think both Hydras and Risposte should be removed from the game.
The former because it has a silly gimmick only for lore reasons and having a bad mechanism in the game it is a not good thing by itself, and much more if it is unique, fiddly and existent only for "lore" reason - when most of "lore" reasons has been taken out from DCSS in favour of clarity, coherence, balance etc.
Riposte because is a complex mechanics, which has various unforeseen and probably unwanted side-effects, is a nightmare to balance, it is unclear at best for players, add a lot of spam worthless messages and add or change virtually *nothing* from the point of view of gameplay - e.g. using a mace works practically the same of a sword except the second has now a shitload of weird rules, while on the other hand polearms and axes add some new sigfniciant tactics and differences in the game. (I'm not commenting about the goodness of cleaving or reaching).

So you want this draw back to be removed for the sake of consistency, fair enough. But saying that riposte should be removed due to its complexity is a fallacy. Are you saying you would rather it be removed immediately instead of it being implemented into the game to a decent standard?

[nago]

No, I'd like to see Riposte removed unless it's base mechanism is reworked because it is complex, unclear, has various corner cases and what else while adding *nothing* in term of player choice, tactics and so on.
Right now, using a mace in the game is 99,9% equivalent to a sword, except the latter requires like 20 more lines to be fully described.

[CypherZel]

I don't think so, riposte allows players to try out more EV based characters and builds, you might say that wearing heavy armour is just better an makes this useless but we all know crawl is not about what is most effective

[stickyfingers]

adding *nothing* in term of player choice, tactics and so on

You're now encouraged to wield the biggest sword you find when at 0 skill while casting Freeze or Searing Ray or Sticky Flame and stuff.

On related note - does Mi retaliation trigger *Rage? I don't think so, and it would be weird if these behave differently. Yes, I know riposte triggers a full attack and Mi only do aux attack, that doesn't matter for consistency.

[BabyRage]

I think rage should not trigger off of something that player can't control.

[Sar]

Why do you think so? Does it make you... rage?

[CypherZel]

[quote="BabyRage"]I think rage should not trigger off of something that player can't control.[/quote
Switch weapons

[BabyRage]

Why do you think so? Does it make you... rage?

Ba-dum-tss.

[duvessa]

If riposte is going to exist, the very least you can do to make it not completely terrible from a design standpoint is to make the riposte melee attack actually function as a melee attack. That means applying auxes, slaying, enchantment, brand, *Rage, hydra chopping, and retaliation - if you feel the latter three are bad mechanics (which they are) then get rid of them altogether, don't add special cases to riposte.

[nago]

I think mummy curses is also triggered by risposte, but I don't know if mummy curse is a bad mechanics by itself

[CanOfWorms]

note that you can riposte a neutral creature you've pacified under Elyvilon if it bumps into you. have fun!

[Cimanyd]

note that you can riposte a neutral creature you've pacified under Elyvilon if it bumps into you. have fun!

Not anymore, apparently.

[CanOfWorms]

rip(oste)