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*Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 03:25
by VeryAngryFelid
Does chance for *Confuse triggering depend on amount of damage taken? Or is it better to become EV-based character?

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 04:22
by duvessa
its better to not wear the item

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 04:26
by Baldu3
In my experience the *confuse happens infrequently and didnt seem to be related to damage taken but it didn't seem to have a cooldown, so it's adding another potential for a low % chain of events that randomly make lose.

In other words reply above this one is what I do now that I've tried *confuse a few times.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 06:58
by Sar

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 07:24
by nago
Yeah, so now it is 100% always good to drop the item in the lava unless is something like {*slow, +6 slay, +6 AC , +wiz} instead of being sometimes an acceptable trade off unless not having !curing or being a Mu.

Still, we may consider this somewhat a buff to mummy so, great!

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 07:47
by Sar
I'm worried about this property encouraging Chei worshipers to leave a harmless monster around so that it could follow them and trigger *Slow in combat, leading to them getting increased Chei piety.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 08:40
by le_nerd
I am worried about the slow Ashenzari-nerf creep we have been experiencing over the years. Ash is the God(ddess) of convenience:

*berserk? Doesnt matter. "you feel a little angry?" Doesnt matter. "

*Confuse? Didn't used to matter, *slow now does. "It takes you a little longer to read scrolls." Didn't used to matter, got removed. Etc etc.

I just really like Ash.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 10:51
by lethediver
But you just said you were worried about her. I guess you're confused. But then, Ash prevents confusion, which explains why you don't seem distressed by any of this.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 11:17
by dpeg
As far as I see it, these are just little gimmicks for Ashenzari. The two crucial powers are: monster recognition and skill boost. These are strong and stable, and if we think that Ash is underpowered, it is very easy to twist these screws. (I don't think that Ashenzari is underpowered.)

The minor effects you mention get adapted as development goes on. Nothing to worry about.

The other part of the god that's very dear to me, and that I had to argue long and hard for, is the curse flavour. I hope that'll survive, too.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 12:34
by VeryAngryFelid
  Code:
  6521 | D:7      | Identified the +6 demon whip "Oteo" {venom, *Confuse rPois rC+ Dex+2} (You acquired it on level 7 of the Dungeon)


Not using it is a bad idea IMHO, I am DsAK.

Initially I was going for heavy armour but then got

  Code:
   130 | D:1      | Gained mutation: You have a somewhat thin skeletal structure (Dex +2, Stealth). [demonic ancestry]
so I stayed in leather.

After that I got
  Code:
  3607 | D:4      | Identified the +0 pair of gloves of Mezcal {Regen+ Dex-4 SInv} (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)


so I switched to ring mail.

After that I got
  Code:
  6521 | D:7      | Identified the +6 demon whip "Oteo" {venom, *Confuse rPois rC+ Dex+2} (You acquired it on level 7 of the Dungeon)
 6737 | D:7      | Gained mutation: You have a moderately thin skeletal structure (Dex +4, Stealth+). [demonic ancestry]


so I switched back to leather.
I tried to use the weapon immediately and got confused relatively often, almost died once.

Got
  Code:
 13321 | Lair:2   | Gained mutation: A weak demonic guardian rushes to your aid. [demonic ancestry]


which is not great with *Confuse in light armour, then got powered by pain 2 on Lair 4 which is great with light armour because of Agility being almost useless in heavy armour.
Eventually I found
  Code:
 19255 | Lair:7   | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 19523 | Lab      | Identified the +10 plate armour of the Midnight Sun {rElec rPois Int-2 SInv} (You found it in a labyrinth)
and now I am almost never confused so it looks like the chance to trigger *Confuse does depend on amount of damage taken indeed.

Oh, and I got

  Code:
Trove: D:11 (give 16 potions of curing)
of course ;)

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 14:08
by nago
VeryAngryFelid wrote:which is not great with *Confuse in light armour, then got powered by pain 2 on Lair 4 which is great with light armour because of Agility being almost useless in heavy armour.


All run against a stone giant:

Robe, 20 dex, 3AC, 15 EV, 4 dodging

  Code:
       AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     21,4 |     77 |      93% |  20,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     28,6
Defending:     20,3 |     45 |      64% |  13,1 |   100  |  1,00 |     13,1


Robe, 20 dex, 21 ev for !agility, 4 dodging

  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     21,3 |     85 |      93% |  19,9 |    70  |  1,43 |     28,5
Defending:     20,1 |     45 |      52% |  10,5 |   100  |  1,00 |     10,5


Robe, 20 dex, 30 EV, 20 dodging

  Code:
      AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     21,5 |     83 |      93% |  20,2 |    70  |  1,43 |     28,8
Defending:     20,1 |     45 |      34% |   7,0 |   100  |  1,00 |      7,0


Robe, 20 dex, 38 EV for !agility, 20 dodgin

  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     20,8 |     89 |      93% |  19,5 |    70  |  1,43 |     27,8
Defending:     20,1 |     44 |      23% |   4,8 |   100  |  1,00 |      4,8



Plate, 20 dex, 14 AC, 8 EV, 4 dodging

  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     21,2 |     92 |      93% |  19,9 |    70  |  1,43 |     28,4
Defending:     14,7 |     38 |      81% |  11,9 |   100  |  1,00 |     12,1


Plate, 20 dex, 13 EV for !agility, 4 dodging

  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     21,6 |     78 |      94% |  20,3 |    70  |  1,43 |     29,1
Defending:     15,2 |     38 |      70% |  10,8 |   100  |  1,00 |     10,8


Plate, 20 dex, 14 AC, 17 EV, 20 dodging

  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     20,9 |     80 |      93% |  19,6 |    70  |  1,43 |     27,9
Defending:     14,7 |     38 |      61% |   9,1 |   100  |  1,00 |      9,1


Plate, 20 dex, 25 EV for !agility, 20 dodging

  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     21,5 |     77 |      93% |  20,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     28,6
Defending:     14,8 |     38 |      45% |   6,7 |   100  |  1,00 |      6,7


!agility on average is probably worse while in heavy armour but far from being useless.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 14:15
by VeryAngryFelid
14 AC is too low for plate. If you have AC 34 after Lair and before Orc like I do in my current game, the damage is already very low despite I get hit often (my EV is just 14) and missing some extra hits does not help that much.

I should probably have written "high AC, low EV" instead of "heavy armour" in that message to make my point more clear.

Edit. Thank you for taking your time with the tests.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 15:34
by MarvinPA
*Confuse (and now *Slow) has a 1% chance per equipped item with the property to trigger when taking damage. The amount of damage doesn't matter (other than that it's greater than 0 of course, so better armour would still make a difference there).

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 15:38
by VeryAngryFelid
Thank you!

This is what I needed, I checked history of that file and confusion lasts much less, just 7 turns at most
https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3 ... 4daa2fL724
So I may be lucky to get enough potions for the trove.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 19:47
by duvessa
my post was in response to "is it better to become EV-based character?"
for starters, the answer is obviously no, and in addition to that, "EV-based character" (or "AC-based character" or "SH-based character") is not something that exists in crawl

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 20:03
by VeryAngryFelid
duvessa wrote:my post was in response to "is it better to become EV-based character?"
for starters, the answer is obviously no, and in addition to that, "EV-based character" (or "AC-based character" or "SH-based character") is not something that exists in crawl


I am not sure what you mean, Sp in robe has defense which is quite different from defense of Na/Gr in CPA.
I meant that I had choice between relying mostly on AC (chain/plate) or mostly on EV (robe/leather), you cannot have both great AC and great EV until much later. Ring mail is somewhere in between. Of course I would still continue being melee character as I didn't have any good books yet.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 20:57
by jwoodward48ss
There is a continuum. Here are the three extremes:

Evasion-based characters need high Dex and Dodging skill. They can often dodge attacks entirely, but when an attack hits, they are vulnerable to damage. Most casters tend to be in this corner.

Shield-based characters need high Shields skill. This is similar to Evasion, but is useful in some other situations:

1. Evasion and armour are often at odds, as are shields and armour. You can't have uberawesome EV and uberawesome AC as easily as you can get uberawesome AC and SH at the same time. Your EV will take a hit, but with good SH to block attacks and good AC for when hits get through, who needs EV?

2. Many characters don't have good Dodging apts or Dexterity. Shields are more viable than EV for such characters.

The thing about SH-based characters is that they don't exist in the sense of trade-off b/w AC and SH as is present with EV, but that there is a binary tradeoff between sword-and-board and Big ****ing Sword. Most SH-based characters, excluding weird things like Og who've never found a dragon armour, use AC as well.

Armour-based characters need high Strength and Armour skill. Armour is the most reliable of the three, since it's less likely to let a devastating attack through. It can be worse on average than good EV, though. Option of choice for o-tabbers.

Both EV and SH are useless against AoF attacks like Fireball. AC is not.

=====

But of course most good characters use some of each. Everybody wants a bit of EV, everybody wants good AC, and a buckler is usually good in the early game - 4 skill levels is easy to get no matter what your aptitudes are, and unless you found an early battleaxe or are a bow-user, there shouldn't be a conflict between your buckler and your best weapon.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Friday, 16th September 2016, 21:48
by VeryAngryFelid
You made me want to play SH-based character. Formicid in robe who does not cast spells and does not train Dodging, all stat points go into Str.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Saturday, 17th September 2016, 15:09
by and into
Ok, if you choose to use shields for almost the entirety of your defense, neglecting armor and dodging, then yes you will end up with a "SH-based character." But nothing forces you -- or even encourages you -- to do that.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Saturday, 17th September 2016, 16:35
by VeryAngryFelid
Yes, it is supposed to be challenge conduct. Unfortunately the FoFi died while naked and looking for robe. Maybe Tr will be better, large species get higher SH value from the same shield and shields skills as far as I remember.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Saturday, 17th September 2016, 16:55
by stickyfingers
It's the other way around. Large races need less skill to offset penalties, but get lower SH instead.

Re: *Confuse mechanic

PostPosted: Saturday, 17th September 2016, 18:49
by VeryAngryFelid
My experiments show that SH alone is not enough, died to 2 Orc Wizards and a Howl Monkey from full HP despite having 70 HP. Magic dart from invisible orc wizard is not fun.