PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin


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Post Wednesday, 7th September 2016, 18:12

PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7 ... b495763dc4

  Code:
Replace Throw with Throw Ally on Iron Giants

The Throw implementation was meant to be more about fun ways to
reposition the player that involved landing next to dangerous things or
unexplored areas with dangerous things. In practice the ability was much
more about giving the monster undodgeable damage and more chances to
pelt you with ranged attacks. It didn't help that iron giants are almost
always the most dangerous thing on the level already, so you tended to
land next to less dangerous things.

Remove this ability and give iron giants the ability to throw any
aligned monster at you instead. This can put nasty things next to the
player that often bog them down, giving the iron giant the chance to get
closer. It also will set up more instances of the iron giant's
line-of-fire being blocked by relatively trivial monsters that happen to
be nearby. Maybe a future tweak can look into having iron giants select
only sufficiently nasty monsters to throw in the first place, or
possibly favoring landing sites that are more likely to slow down the
player's escape.

Some other fun player-repositioning monster ability might well be
introduced later, leading to many player deaths and the consternation of
elf-lickers everywhere. One idea we discussed is a kind of
teleportitis-other that seeks to land players next to hostiles, much
like the mutation, but it would need further thought.
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Post Wednesday, 7th September 2016, 18:44

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

RIP iron giants, I guess.

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Post Wednesday, 7th September 2016, 21:30

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

..what?
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Post Wednesday, 7th September 2016, 22:21

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Is this a nerf or a buff?

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Post Wednesday, 7th September 2016, 22:46

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Sar

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Post Wednesday, 7th September 2016, 22:55

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

clickbait, the link contains no elvs or licking
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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 00:11

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

BabyRage wrote:Is this a nerf or a buff?

'nuff said
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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 07:33

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

personally I think it's a rather big nerf, now an irony giant will conveniently throw a bunch of dudes to your location so you can slaughter them and after that you can melee it and it respects your AC and EV and doesn't reposition you

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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 08:35

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

They should also be given battlecry.

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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 17:53

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Sar wrote:personally I think it's a rather big nerf, now an irony giant will conveniently throw a bunch of dudes to your location so you can slaughter them and after that you can melee it and it respects your AC and EV and doesn't reposition you
I'm not convinced. You always had the option to just not melee the iron giant. And I don't think Robin-style throwing has a meaningful effect either, but if it does I doubt it's beneficial to the player. Almost every monster is more dangerous when it's closer to you.

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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 18:10

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Well I mainly meet those guys in Dis and I'm one of those weirdos who don't tele-roulette Hell so I have to fight those guys sometimes (I can walk away from them but then they'll catch up when I get tormented and have to rest). So, I had to kill them in some way. At least they used to be a distinct "do not melee" monster, now they're just another melee monster with iron shot. As far as I'm concerned, you could buff hell sent melee and remove iron giants at that point. Actually, the latter part will probably happen at some point.

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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 18:18

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Prohibiting melee is not a good feature for monsters to have, and there are plenty of other monsters that still have it anyway. It's also still much better to kill them at range.

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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 18:24

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

duvessa wrote:Prohibiting melee is not a good feature for monsters to have, and there are plenty of other monsters that still have it anyway.


Why not? Silent specters, monsters with permanent RMsl/DMsl, monsters with immunity to some elements are good, they prompt player to have a different method of killing things.
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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 18:27

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

duvessa wrote:Prohibiting melee is not a good feature for monsters to have

I think the way they did it was fine, it was probably my favorite anti-melee monster. They felt formidable and different. Now they're boring.

I mean, as Sandman pointed out there are monsters that shut down magic much more crudely. I mean, I get that melee is the default thing for every character to have, but still.

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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 19:26

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

"Shutting down magic" isn't any better (and you're seriously calling silent spectres good?). It's also not something that's actually true of DMsl monsters and resistant monsters, since magic that bypasses those is plentiful.

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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 19:36

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Silent spectres should have a monster version of silence that only affects the player character...
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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 19:38

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Yes, Silent Specters are good. The most dangerous thing for some characters in extended.

I meant RMsl/DMsl make missile attacks (launchers and throwing) almost useless.
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Post Thursday, 8th September 2016, 21:18

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

How do you kill them as a melee character without melee (in past I mean)? Melee characters usually have some throwing/evo/etc by extended, but that is for killing stull such as tormenters/nequoxecs, and not really good enough to kill iron giants.
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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 00:35

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Iron giants -> harmless, even if they went back to speed 10

edit: The reason is because throw ignores GDR. This is the only way to actually damage high level player characters. See: high frequency of stone giant large rock kills in Depths.
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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 01:02

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Iron Giants throw for 3d37 damage, that's much higher than their melee (75).
If your extended character has AC 50 (quite high, right?) and GDR 39% (that's plate, only GDA and CPA are better), the GDR saves just 19 damage (24 for CPA), not that much. So you still can get 56 damage from melee. Even if GDR applied to throwing, you might get 92 damage from throwing, of course it would still be more dangerous than melee.

The same thing with Stone Giant, I am sure they can deal more than 45 damage with large rocks (that's their melee attack).
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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 01:09

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

3d32 iron shot ignores GDR too, bro

also lol @ the implication that they ever weren't harmless

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 01:30

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Irong Giants did not throw for 3d37 damage; you are thinking of their iron shot. They threw for 1d(4 * HD) = 1d88 damage, which was not all that much higher than their melee.

Re "the reason is because...throw GDR", iron shot already ignores GDR and did more damage both on-average and at max value. Top kills by iron giants in terms of damage were far an away iron shot, deaths due to that spell were about 40% of their kills.

Throw was just an effect that happened frequently, since it could happen on any turn of melee. It ignoring GDR does indeed help it do more damage, but the player made the decision to melee them in the first place. Iron shot can hit you even if you're trying to not fight them (which is a wise move).

I added significant damage to the throw more to make it meaningful even when the repositioning aspect didn't do a lot. The repositioning was more interesting to me, specifically the player ending up in some new situation LOS-wise, but this was not common. Simply landing a few tiles away and moving right back to hit the monster again or giving up and using ranged attacks/allies is mostly what happened in practice.

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 02:42

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Throw also didn't miss, correct?
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Sar

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 06:56

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Yeah, it ignored EV and (probably) SH. It really was a great combo of throwing the player away for massive damage and finishing them with iron shot. Like octopode crushers, I guess, only crushers were so squishy you could tab them anyway.

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 09:50

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

I dunno, I hated much more octopode crushers because high EV + SH is much much more annoying and unreliable to go trough. Not counting the fact they liked to lurk near water.
Iron giant - at least speed 8 - are were much less annoying to deal with.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 10:37

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Sar wrote:personally I think it's a rather big nerf, now an irony giant will conveniently throw a bunch of dudes to your location so you can slaughter them and after that you can melee it and it respects your AC and EV and doesn't reposition you

Wait: are we talking about an irony giant or a sarcasm giant?

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 10:46

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Throw didn't do the massive damage, iron shot did, as was just pointed out.

Iron giants only appear in Dis, a place where you have maximum opportunity to use teleport/cblink/summon spame/AOE attacks etc given your XL, so throw never missing is hardly an excuse to die to one. You chose to approach and melee something that responds by damaging you and then giving itself several free attacks. Undodgeable things like hellfire and torment already exist without the annoying "now let's start the fight over" aspect.

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 10:54

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Hellfire and torment are good attacks, however their overuse in postend (or rather postend being too long) is one of common complaints. Iron giants were different and they could hurt one subset of characters, they weren't universally dangerous but I don't think it made them bad. "There's no excuse to die to throw" - well, there's no excuse to die past what, Temple, what's the current meta? Lair? Should all monsters past Lair be removed because ideally you won't die to them either and they just add some annoyance to the game since they force you to retreat, use consumables etc.? Because that is pretty annoying.

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 11:14

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

One could use that logic to justify including pretty much any awful kind of attack in the game though. Making the fight longer and repetitive isn't what I was going for. We can probably do better than "well, its one redeeming quality is that it's different from hellfire and torment!". Iron giants can get further changes or even completely reworked at some point, and we'll all get to enjoy the newnewnew-iron giants meme appropriately.

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 11:21

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Throw would "only make a fight longer" if it didn't deal massive EV-ignoring damage and if the giants didn't have ranged attacks. But it did, and they do. Also, typically you encountered giants either in vaults full of other nasty shit (in which case, they would often reposition you in the thick of it), or as a random hell effect spawn in Dis (which was often scary because typically you get those random spawns while trying to regain lost HP).
gammafunk wrote:Iron giants can get further changes or even completely reworked at some point

Just remove them at this point, the "suddenly monsters are next to you" effect in Hell is already achieved by hell effects. Buff hell sent melee and they'll fill the same niche.
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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 11:24

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

gammafunk wrote:Iron giants only appear in Dis,

Has this been changed? I've seen them in Depths.
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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 12:30

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Has this been changed? I've seen them in Depths.

Yes, in trunk they only appear in Dis.

Throw would "only make a fight longer" if it didn't deal massive EV-ignoring damage and if the giants didn't have ranged attacks. But it did, and they do.

"massive" and EV-ignoring had nothing to do with it, nor does their having ranged attacks. If you chose to melee an iron giant, you could be assured that you'd go through a cycle of moving adjacent, getting thrown, moving adjacent. People playing especially poorly would repeat this cycle until they died, but successful melee fights were simply longer versions of what it would have been if they'd just had melee and maybe cast iron shot a bit more.

The reposition thing was relevant extremely seldomly, as I said before, and "is capable of being a hell effect spawn" is not a unique property of iron giants. As far as removal goes, that's always on the table, but in the mean time Dis is large enough to hold iron giants if/until we come up with other ideas.

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 12:35

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

gamamfunk wrote:The reposition thing was relevant extremely seldomly

It had like a 50% or more chance to be relevant every time you fought an iron giant in a vault because most vaults contain more monsters inside, and most iron giants you fight would be in vaults. I've frequently had situations in Dis where a giant would throw me further in the Dis vault in los of tormenters and hell sents, which was kind of relevant. Yes, you can kite monsters away from vaults but it's Hell so you don't have all the time in the world for that.

But I guess I just suck especially badly so idk lol

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 12:38

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Wish they'd join team Maud tbh.

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 16:59

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Sar wrote:I've frequently had situations in Dis where a giant would throw me further in the Dis vault in los of tormenters and hell sents, which was kind of relevant. [...]
But I guess I just suck especially badly so idk lol
If you were in the habit of charging into vaults because you wanted to melee an iron giant, it actually does sound like you suck, yeah. And now it can throw hell sentinels at you, so you can still enjoy the bad-Hell-tactics experience if you so choose.

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 17:06

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

What's the point of having 250hp, 80 ac+ev, big fucking weapon and all the good spells if you choose to not slither furiously against every thing no matter of ugly is?
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Friday, 9th September 2016, 17:12

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

duvessa wrote:If you were in the habit of charging into vaults because you wanted to melee an iron giant

Well, I wasn't exactly charging into them, but in Hell, you don't have a lot of time to kite every giant to a perfectly safe ground because, well, it's Hell and stuff spawns, including more giants.

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Post Saturday, 10th September 2016, 17:29

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

"What is the point of having two hundred and fifty aich pee comma eighty aey see plus ee vee comma big fucking weapon and all the good spells if you choose to not slither furiously against every thing no matter of ugly is"

Almost as good as the Bay12 Official Nonsensical Post. Keep trying.
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Post Saturday, 10th September 2016, 18:34

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

/sarcasm
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 05:25

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

I knew you weren't being serious. I don't think the author of the B12ONP was serious either.
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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 11:11

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Just done Dis. Met a lot of iron giants, tabbed through all of them like the popcorn they now are. I don't think they even threw anyone at me, though I didn't really pay attention.
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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 14:06

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

duvessa wrote:3d32 iron shot ignores GDR too, bro

Wow, that's weird. Never realized GDR was only for melee. Huh.
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Post Wednesday, 14th September 2016, 17:35

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

njvack wrote:Wow, that's weird. Never realized GDR was only for melee. Huh.

Yes, the term used should be GMDR, where M stands for melee.
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Post Thursday, 15th September 2016, 22:30

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

duvessa wrote: Almost every monster is more dangerous when it's closer to you.

Correct in the general case, but sometimes not if you're a Cheibriados worshipper. Thankfully, no one would do that, right?

Also: GDR -> GMDR sounds like a great idea. Will help avoid a lot of confusion if we all start calling it that, imho.

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Post Friday, 16th September 2016, 07:50

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

GDR -> AXED would be even better
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Friday, 16th September 2016, 21:01

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

But then armour would be nerfed. We don't need another rebalance. Anybody remember the roughly 0.8 IIRC period where armour shifted back and forth between ridiculously effective and ridiculously useless?
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Post Friday, 16th September 2016, 21:15

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

nago wrote:GDR -> AXED would be even better

Why not just show the gdr onscreen, and rename it gmdr?

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Post Saturday, 17th September 2016, 15:14

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

The number would still be very prone to misunderstandings. It would be like showing monster EV numerically. "Cool here is this number. I have no idea what it means."

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Post Saturday, 17th September 2016, 15:18

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

Then explain it in the tutorial or something.

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Post Saturday, 17th September 2016, 16:16

Re: PSA: Iron Giants have joined Team Robin

jwoodward48ss wrote:But then armour would be nerfed. We don't need another rebalance. Anybody remember the roughly 0.8 IIRC period where armour shifted back and forth between ridiculously effective and ridiculously useless?


It was 0.5 to 0.8, and it had nothing to do with GDR.

GDR is beneficial but is not in itself a very important factor in determining the usefulness of a piece of armor.

GDR did not change much from 0.5 to 0.8, but usefulness of armor changed greatly, because other much more important factors (not GDR) were changed quite a bit.

arandomperson12 wrote:Then explain it in the tutorial or something.


You would also need to reveal to player the max damage enemy could do in melee if you want displaying GDR to mean anything.

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