MiBe, advice for noob


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Sunday, 28th August 2016, 17:46

Post Sunday, 28th August 2016, 23:49

MiBe, advice for noob

Hi,
I am new to the game, I have played 10-12 characters so far.
I am doing pretty well however with this one. Pretty easy run so far, already have two runes (swamp and spider). Currently starting exploring Vault.

I've been only two times close to dying (very close).}
One was in Spider. I was careless and found myself cornered, stuck in a web, confused, poisoned, exhausted and slow, with 3-4 spiders hitting me. I spent like 4 potions of curing, 3 heal wounds, and thanks to the headbutt I finally killed them. That one was very close.
The other one was in swamp. I opened a door and some drakes and swamp dragons spammed me with mephitic and poison. I ran and barely survived-

I'd like some general advice on things to bear in mind, criticism on skill management, inventory, etc- Just general tips. Do you think this character is a potential game-winner?

Also, why am I "slow"? (it takes me 1,1 turns to move)

Thank you

  Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.18.1 (tiles) character file.

Cthulu the Phalangite (Minotaur Berserker)         Turns: 52519, Time: 06:46:34

Health: 181/187    AC: 34    Str: 26    XL:     19   Next: 3%
Magic:  21/21      EV: 11    Int:  4    God:    Trog [*****.]
Gold:   1793       SH:  0    Dex: 14    Spells: 0 memorised, 18 levels left

rFire  . . .      SeeInvis +    e - +7 halberd (flame)
rCold  . . .      Gourm    .    a - +9 plate armour {ponderous}
rNeg   . . .      Faith    .    (shield currently unavailable)
rPois  .          Spirit   .    (helmet restricted)
rElec  +          Dismiss  .    b - +0 cloak
rCorr  .          Reflect  .    D - +0 pair of gloves
SustAt .          Harm     .    U - +0 pair of boots
MR     ++...                    f - amulet "Doxig" {rElec Regen+ SInv}
Stlth  ..........               C - +2 ring of protection
                                Z - ring of protection from magic

@: slow, very resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2
a: Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Burn Spellbooks, Renounce Religion
}: 2/15 runes: decaying, gossamer


You are on level 1 of the Vaults.
You worship Trog.
Trog is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 7 branches of the dungeon, and seen 35 of its levels.
You have also visited: Labyrinth.

You have collected 3734 gold pieces.
You have spent 1941 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 e - a +7 halberd of flaming (weapon)
 h - a +2 antimagic bardiche
 k - a +1 spear of freezing
 W - a +0 blowgun
Missiles
 t - 133 poisoned needles
 K - 7 curare-tipped needles
 N - 15 poisoned javelins
 R - 11 poisoned tomahawks (quivered)
 V - 4 javelins of penetration
 Y - 2 steel javelins
Armour
 a - a +9 plate armour of ponderousness (worn)
 b - a +0 cloak (worn)
 m - a +0 shield of reflection
 s - a +0 fire dragon armour
 D - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
 U - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
Jewellery
 c - an uncursed ring of ice
 d - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 f - the amulet "Doxig" (around neck) {rElec Regen+ SInv}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Spider Nest)   
   
   [amulet of regeneration]
   
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It lets you see invisible.
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
 g - an uncursed ring of poison resistance
 y - an uncursed ring of ice
 C - a +2 ring of protection (right hand)
 H - the ring "Fiph" {Dex+4 Stlth-}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of loudness]
   
   It affects your dexterity (+4).
   It makes you less stealthy.
 Z - a ring of protection from magic (left hand)
Wands
 u - a wand of slowing (20/48)
 x - a wand of iceblast (0/15)
 F - a wand of flame (37/48)
 G - a wand of lightning (8/15)
 L - a wand of enslavement (17/24)
 M - a wand of flame (46/48)
 P - a wand of paralysis (19/24)
Scrolls
 i - 7 scrolls of teleportation
 A - 7 scrolls of magic mapping
 O - 6 scrolls of fear
 S - 13 scrolls of remove curse
 T - 4 scrolls of identify
Potions
 j - a potion of flight
 l - 3 potions of heal wounds
 n - a potion of curing
 q - a potion of resistance
 v - 3 potions of agility
 w - a potion of invisibility
 z - a potion of brilliance
 I - 3 potions of haste
 J - a potion of ambrosia
 X - 2 potions of cure mutation
Comestibles
 o - 2 bread rations
 p - 5 fruits
 r - 9 slices of pizza
 B - 6 beef jerkies
 E - a chunk of flesh
 Q - 16 meat rations


   Skills:
 + Level 20,5 Fighting
 - Level 21,2 Polearms
 - Level 13,2 Throwing
 + Level 18,6 Armour
 + Level 6,0 Dodging
 - Level 4,3 Stealth
 - Level 6,5 Shields
 - Level 5,1 Evocations


You have 18 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:6            Lair (8/8) D:10
  Swamp (4/4) Lair:6       Spider (4/4) Lair:3        Slime (1/6) Lair:7
    Orc (2/2) D:10            Elf (0/3) Orc:2        Vaults (1/5) D:14
 Depths (0/5) D:15       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Kikubaaqudgha
Nemelex Xobeh
Pakellas
Ru
Trog
Yredelemnul
Zin
Beogh

Shops:
D:8 ((!=   D:14 }(:   Orc:1 =   Orc:2 ![}::?*}?

Annotations:
D:4 Pikel


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 131

Joined: Thursday, 11th August 2011, 14:40

Post Monday, 29th August 2016, 00:26

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

You are slow because the body armour you're wearing has the "ponderous" property.

Winning is (almost) always possible, and MiBe is a strong combination.

Some random tips:

If you've never been on vaults:5 before, be aware that it's much more dangerous than level 1-4. Doing the first few levels of depths before might be safer. Crypt is also generally not that dangerous, with a few exceptions (mostly curse toes, curse skulls and the odd Ancient Lich).

Consider investing a bit more into dodging and dex.

If you don't mind playing slow, consider eXamining each monster you encounter; check for instance their MR - many very dangerous monsters have 0 MR which means paralysis/confusion/enslave wands have a very decent success chance.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 467

Joined: Wednesday, 25th May 2016, 23:37

Post Monday, 29th August 2016, 00:46

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Nothing has 0 mr, but some stuff has low mr.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 131

Joined: Thursday, 11th August 2011, 14:40

Post Monday, 29th August 2016, 01:00

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

arandomperson12 wrote:Nothing has 0 mr, but some stuff has low mr.


This is true, still the point I was trying to make was to look out for monsters who display 0 MR +'s when you examine them. I guess 0 +'s means less than 40 MR?

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2229

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Monday, 29th August 2016, 12:40

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Considering you're a new player you're doing very well. Have you played other roguelikes?
Anyway, you char is okay. I'd probably use the AM Bardiche even if it is only +2 and definitely put all Enchant Weapon scrolls on it.

For the rest, the most important thing is to play carefully - try to separate enemies, fight in explored area, fight 1 enemy at time, use consumables\god powers when things are dangerous.

I don't think you will need all the details listed (plus some advice are unfortunately questionable), but the following are 3 post\topics with quite good advices for new players:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12062&p=168952&hilit=friend
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7699
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16109
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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and into

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 451

Joined: Friday, 24th June 2016, 14:09

Post Monday, 29th August 2016, 22:26

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Just press tab

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 451

Joined: Friday, 24th June 2016, 14:09

Post Monday, 29th August 2016, 22:30

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Also some dodging would be nice

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Sunday, 28th August 2016, 17:46

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 00:25

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

nago wrote:Considering you're a new player you're doing very well. Have you played other roguelikes?
Anyway, you char is okay. I'd probably use the AM Bardiche even if it is only +2 and definitely put all Enchant Weapon scrolls on it.

For the rest, the most important thing is to play carefully - try to separate enemies, fight in explored area, fight 1 enemy at time, use consumables\god powers when things are dangerous.

I don't think you will need all the details listed (plus some advice are unfortunately questionable), but the following are 3 post\topics with quite good advices for new players:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12062&p=168952&hilit=friend
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7699
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16109


I have played other roguelikes indeed (Brogue, CatalcysmDDA, UnrealWorld). I am familiar with the mechanics.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1233

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 11:06

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Train more dodging. Put your remaining stat choices into Dex.

Train a bit more Evo and use those wands. Eith Evo ~9 You should be able to reliably (~50%) effect enemies with up to MR++. Wardens, convokers, spark wasps, etc.

Do Vaults:1-4, then depths. Then review the character strength. Do a search for hats.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Sunday, 28th August 2016, 17:46

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 13:34

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Can I wear hats? Well, that is something I didnt know

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1233

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 14:38

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Yes, Mi have horns 2, which prohibits helmets, but allows other headgear, namely hats.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Sunday, 28th August 2016, 17:46

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 15:00

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

I died...

Quite disappointed

  Code:
344337 Cthulu the Phalangite (level 21, -3/217 HPs)
             Began as a Minotaur Berserker on Aug 24, 2016.
             Was a High Priest of Trog.
             Slain by Cthulu's illusion (35 damage)
             ... woven by Mara
             ... on level 1 of the Crypt on Aug 30, 2016.
             The game lasted 07:47:31 (59757 turns).

Cthulu the Phalangite (Minotaur Berserker)         Turns: 59757, Time: 07:47:32

Health: -3/217     AC: 34    Str: 27    XL:     21   Next: 15%
Magic:  25/25      EV: 12    Int:  4    God:    Trog [*****.]
Gold:   2460       SH:  0    Dex: 15    Spells: 0 memorised, 20 levels left

rFire  . . .      SeeInvis .    e - +7 halberd (flame)
rCold  . . .      Gourm    .    a - +9 plate armour {ponderous}
rNeg   . . .      Faith    .    (shield currently unavailable)
rPois  +          Spirit   .    (helmet restricted)
rElec  .          Dismiss  .    b - +1 cloak
rCorr  .          Reflect  .    D - +1 pair of gloves
SustAt .          Harm     .    U - +0 pair of boots
MR     +....                    K - amulet of Vitality {Regen+ HP+15}
Stlth  ..........               g - ring of poison resistance
                                C - +2 ring of protection

@: exhausted, slowed, heavily drained, very slow, somewhat resistant to hostile
enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2
a: Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Burn Spellbooks, Renounce Religion
}: 2/15 runes: decaying, gossamer


You were on level 1 of the Crypt.
You worshipped Trog.
Trog was extremely pleased with you.
You were very hungry.

You visited 8 branches of the dungeon, and saw 39 of its levels.
You also visited: Labyrinth.

You collected 4401 gold pieces.
You spent 1941 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 e - a +7 halberd of flaming (weapon)
 h - a +2 antimagic bardiche
Missiles
 E - 8 steel javelins (quivered)
 N - 19 poisoned javelins
 R - 14 poisoned tomahawks
 V - 8 javelins of penetration
Armour
 a - a +9 plate armour of ponderousness (worn)
 b - a +1 cloak (worn)
 m - a +0 shield of reflection
 s - a +0 fire dragon armour
 D - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
 U - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
Jewellery
 c - an uncursed ring of ice
 d - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 f - the amulet "Doxig" {rElec Regen+ SInv}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Spider Nest)   
   
   [amulet of regeneration]
   
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It lets you see invisible.
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
 g - a ring of poison resistance (right hand)
 y - an uncursed ring of ice
 C - a +2 ring of protection (left hand)
 H - the ring "Fiph" {Dex+4 Stlth-}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of loudness]
   
   It affects your dexterity (+4).
   It makes you less stealthy.
 K - the amulet of Vitality (around neck) {Regen+ HP+15}
   (You took it off an ogre mage on level 3 of the Vaults)   
   
   [amulet of regeneration]
   
   It affects your health (+15).
   It increases your rate of regeneration.
 Z - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
Wands
 u - a wand of slowing (20/48)
 x - a wand of iceblast (0/15)
 z - a wand of flame (25/48)
 F - a wand of flame (37/48)
 G - a wand of lightning (8/15)
 L - a wand of enslavement (24/24)
 M - a wand of flame (46/48)
 P - a wand of paralysis (19/24)
Scrolls
 i - 6 scrolls of teleportation
 t - 2 scrolls of blinking
 A - 7 scrolls of magic mapping
 O - 7 scrolls of fear
 S - 17 scrolls of remove curse
 T - 3 scrolls of identify
Potions
 j - 2 potions of flight
 l - 5 potions of heal wounds
 n - 2 potions of curing
 q - a potion of resistance
 v - 4 potions of agility
 w - a potion of invisibility
 I - 3 potions of haste
 J - a potion of ambrosia
 X - a potion of cure mutation
Miscellaneous
 W - a stone of tremors
Comestibles
 k - 3 chunks of flesh
 o - 3 bread rations
 p - 7 fruits
 r - 9 slices of pizza
 B - 6 beef jerkies
 Q - 18 meat rations


   Skills:
 - Level 20,7(17,0) Fighting
 + Level 25,7(21,6) Polearms
 - Level 13,2(10,0) Throwing
 - Level 18,7(15,2) Armour
 * Level 10,2(7,2) Dodging
 - Level 4,3(1,8) Stealth
 - Level 6,5(3,8) Shields
 - Level 7,1(4,4) Evocations


You had 20 spell levels left.
You didn't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:6            Lair (8/8) D:10
  Swamp (4/4) Lair:6       Spider (4/4) Lair:3        Slime (1/6) Lair:7
    Orc (2/2) D:10            Elf (0/3) Orc:2        Vaults (4/5) D:14
  Crypt (1/3) Vaults:3     Depths (0/5) D:15       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Kikubaaqudgha
Nemelex Xobeh
Pakellas
Ru
Trog
Yredelemnul
Zin
Beogh

Shops:
D:8 ((!=   D:14 }(:   Orc:1 =   Orc:2 ![}::?*}?

Annotations:
D:4 Pikel
Crypt:1 Mara


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.


Message History

You feel your anger subside. You are no longer berserk.
You are exhausted.
You feel yourself slow down.
You are feeling very hungry.
Cthulu's illusion rages.
Mara is caught in a web!
Cthulu's illusion rages.
Cthulu's illusion hits you!!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Cthulu's illusion burns you.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Mara struggles to get unstuck from the web.
Mara hits you with a demon whip of draining.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel drained.
There is a staircase back to the Vaults, spattered with blood here.
You feel much better.
Cthulu's illusion hits you but does no damage.
Mara blinks! Mara is caught in a web! Cthulu's illusion hits you!!
You die...

....#
.....####
 #.[....##
   #.....##
      #...#
      #'''#
      #n.^#
     ##..^##
   ###8..R8###
   #8....R..8#
  ##...§....^##
  #8..(@R.(..8#
  #^...@.....^#
  #(.........(#
  #...........#
  #8..(...(..8#
  ##^^.......##
   #8.^..^..8#
   ###8.(^8###
     #######


You could see 3 Maras, a necrophage and Cthulu's illusion (berserk).

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 15:10

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Any reason you weren't using antimagic bardiche on Mara?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4432

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 15:12

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Also use ring of protection from fire by default unless you are in Lair or most of Lair branches where rPois is more useful.

Wow, I didn't know PC copy can berserk.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1233

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 15:30

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Bumped into Mara in Crypt? Most of the time the correct decision is to just leave Crypt alone. Only 15 runes would convince me otherwise.

Also, please put your char-dump into code tags, rather than quotes.

If you're fighting something dangerous that can blink, don't berserk usually. Summon brothers in arms instead!

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VeryAngryFelid
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Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 16:04

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Mod note: like 4h2a suggested, use [code] tags for your character dumps — I've fixed this one.

Mara is a jerk.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 16:07

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Also: This would have been a really great time to use your blinking scrolls.

Your antimagic bardiche would have been a better weapon to use on basically everything than the flaming halberd -- weapon base damage is really important, especially once you get close to minimum delay (which you were).
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

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nago, Sar, VeryAngryFelid
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 16:52

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

If you ARE going to fight Mara, fight Mara on the stairs. Anytime Mara copies themself or summons your illusion, go up/down the stairs. Only the real Mara will follow you and the copies/illusion will be left behind.

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BabyRage, nago, Sar, VeryAngryFelid

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 16

Joined: Sunday, 28th August 2016, 17:46

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 19:02

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

njvack wrote:Also: This would have been a really great time to use your blinking scrolls.

Your antimagic bardiche would have been a better weapon to use on basically everything than the flaming halberd -- weapon base damage is really important, especially once you get close to minimum delay (which you were).


The -6 accuracy dissuaded me from using the bardiche. Shouldn't it?
Also I approached Mara too hastely. First time, and I was oveeconfident from previous floors. Didnt read the description (gross mistake) and got surrounded.

Thanks all for the help anyway
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Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1762

Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05

Post Tuesday, 30th August 2016, 19:24

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

nacional100 wrote:
njvack wrote:Also: This would have been a really great time to use your blinking scrolls.

Your antimagic bardiche would have been a better weapon to use on basically everything than the flaming halberd -- weapon base damage is really important, especially once you get close to minimum delay (which you were).


The -6 accuracy dissuaded me from using the bardiche. Shouldn't it?
Nope. Base damage is quite important(especially with high skill), then base delay/minimum delay, then certain brands(elec, vamp, holy vs. right enemies), then enchantment. Base accuracy shouldn't generally be considered.

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nacional100

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1739

Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48

Post Wednesday, 31st August 2016, 20:45

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Also: Don't use zerk that late in the game.

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2229

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Wednesday, 31st August 2016, 21:09

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Why not? Hp plus might plus haste is extremely good in any moment of the game
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4432

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Wednesday, 31st August 2016, 22:45

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Because it can get you killed with 2 scrolls of blinking in inventory.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

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Rast

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1739

Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48

Post Wednesday, 31st August 2016, 23:22

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

If you can't reliably kill the enemy without zerking, you have an unacceptably high chance of dying to them or the other enemies who show up during the fight.

Barkeep

Posts: 3890

Joined: Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 23:25

Location: USA

Post Wednesday, 31st August 2016, 23:48

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Strongly disagree with Rast.

Enemies that blink can be risky to berserk against in general, even in early or mid-game. But Mara in particular tends to be a very bad enemy to go berserk against. That's when you should either avoid the fight, or else use !haste and call in brothers (and use anti-magic weapon if you have one).

There are areas late in the game with high enemy density, and there are also a higher proportion of enemies with special abilities (like blinking) that can make berserk riskier on average. Nonetheless, there are definitely situations in late game when it is a good move.

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nago

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Thursday, 1st September 2016, 03:50

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

and into wrote:Nonetheless, there are definitely situations in late game when it is a good move when you have no other options.


FTFY. Better options are
1) escape, get more XP and return back to kill it when you don't need to berserk
2) quaff consumables: might, haste, agility etc. There are not that many fast monsters which you cannot escape from, it is often enough consumables to kill those orbs of fire without berserking in the game. It has been proved that you can win NaBe without berserking using nothing but spear of freezing all game.
3) get other ways of killing (spells, evocables, blink+ranged weapon, god powers which don't slow you and don't have a chance to paralyze you etc.)
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Post Thursday, 1st September 2016, 04:13

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

VeryAngryFelid wrote:FTFY. Better options are
1) escape, get more XP and return back to kill it when you don't need to berserk


Sure, you can do that, and sometimes that will be the correct response. There are also situations where killing an enemy as quickly as possible is the best, fastest, and safest way to get it out of your LoS.

2) quaff consumables: might, haste, agility etc. There are not that many fast monsters which you cannot escape from, it is often enough consumables to kill those orbs of fire without berserking in the game.


Quaffing those three potions will take up multiple turns. But what if I told you there was a way to get might, haste, *and* a huge boost to HP in one turn....

It has been proved that you can win NaBe without berserking using nothing but spear of freezing all game.


This, uh, has nothing to do with anything? You can also win the game without teleporting, without getting fast status, etc. I imagine the NaBe would have had a much easier time if it didn't abstain from berserk as a challenge condition.

3) get other ways of killing (spells, evocables, blink+ranged weapon, god powers which don't slow you and don't have a chance to paralyze you etc.)


Very few things are as effective at killing something in melee range as berserk character with a good weapon at min_delay. That doesn't mean it should be your go-to option. The slowness afterward might be too risky for a particular situation, some enemies have abilities that make it a bad idea to rage against them, as I mentioned, and so on. But in terms of increasing your raw killing power with a single action, berserk is competitive throughout the game. And nothing is stopping you from using evocables, other god powers, etc. before you go berserk—you want to wait until the enemy is close before you rage, anyway, after all. Stairs + berserk is in particular very effective (and super cheesy) all the way 'til the end.

Also, if you are with Trog, he greatly reduces the chances of post-berserk blackout.

Berserk is not the answer to every solution, of course, not even close. And you do need to be more careful about using it in areas with high enemy density (including most of the late game). But "Never use berserk in late game" is bad advice, period.

Note: edited slightly for clarity.

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Post Thursday, 1st September 2016, 04:33

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

and into wrote:Sure, you can do that, and sometimes that will be the correct response. There are also situations where killing an enemy as quickly as possible is the best, fastest, and safest way to get it out of your LoS.


That would be true if you were not slowed/paralyzed after that which makes huge difference (especially the latter of course).

Quaffing those three potions will take up multiple turns. But what if I told you there was a way to get might, haste, *and* a huge boost to HP in one turn....


Quaff haste first, check the screen to make sure an Ancient Lich, Draconian Shifter with Blink Foo, Centaur Warrior with arrow of dispersal, Guardian Serpent, Ironband Convoker, Cursed Skull etc. have not come into view, quaff might, check the screen again, attack once, check the screen again. This takes extra 0.7 turn comparing to berserking but you still can escape or do something else every time you act.

This, uh, has nothing to do with anything? You can also win the game without teleporting, without getting fast status, etc. I imagine the NaBe would have had a much easier time if it didn't abstain from berserk as a challenge condition.


My point was that you don't need to risk being paralyzed/slowed even when playing as the slowest species without spells. With spells (Blink, Passage of Golubria) and reasonable weapon you are even less likely to need putting yourself in potential danger to win the game. You can berserk 50 times in a game and be fine and then you are paralyzed or some dangerous monsters come into view while you berserk (yes, near stairs).

Very few things are as effective at killing something in melee range as berserk character with a good weapon at min_delay. That doesn't mean it should be your go-to option. The slowness afterward might be too risky for a particular situation, some enemies have abilities that make it a bad idea to rage against them, as I mentioned, and so on. But in terms of increasing your raw killing power with a single action, berserk is competitive throughout the game. And nothing is stopping you from using evocables, other god powers, etc. before you go berserk—you want to wait until the enemy is close before you rage, anyway, after all. Stairs + berserk is in particular very effective (and super cheesy) all the way 'til the end.


Even less things make you self-paralyze (casting Born while under Death's Door) or slow (I don't know any other way than berserking to get slow status,).

Also, if you are with Trog, he greatly reduces the chances of post-berserk blackout.

Berserk is not the answer to every solution, of course, not even close. And you do need to be more careful about using it in areas with high enemy density (including most of the late game). But "Never use berserk in late game" is bad advice, period.


I see we agree. Most (why not all?) late game has high enemy density and as I FTFY there can be situations when berserking is the best option. With Trog it is more likely of course.
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Post Thursday, 1st September 2016, 04:37

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

We don't really agree, as we obviously have different judgments about the relative costs/benefits, but that is OK.

EDIT: I often think you can mitigate the risks even in late game, in fact you usually have the ability to do so better than in early game.

The only thing I'd add re: the NaBe example is that being slow or paralyzed as a naga is not any better than being slow or paralyzed as another species, in fact it is worse, because after the debuff wears off you are still a naga ;)

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Post Thursday, 1st September 2016, 04:42

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

and into wrote:We don't really agree, as we obviously have different judgments about the relative costs/benefits, but that is OK.


True. You are optimist (everything will be ok if I berserk) and I am pessimist (a Vault Warden will come into view and will lock those stairs while I berserk) :)
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Post Thursday, 1st September 2016, 04:43

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
and into wrote:We don't really agree, as we obviously have different judgments about the relative costs/benefits, but that is OK.


True. You are optimist (everything will be ok if I berserk) and I am pessimist (a Vault Warden will come into view and will lock those stairs while I berserk) :)


Hope springs eternal, and I like making the screen turn red

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Post Friday, 2nd September 2016, 02:58

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Many times killing everyone as fast as posible is safer than trying to escape, I agree.
Still quite new to the game, trying to figure the mechanics out. Most of my characters have died because of me playing too fast. I must start looking at enemies and evaluating my chances better

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Post Friday, 2nd September 2016, 12:31

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

nacional100 wrote:I died...

Quite disappointed[/code]

You'll get over the disappointment. It's a good death: you learnt who Mara is. You'll get another MiBe to similar progress soon enough.

nacional100 wrote:The -6 accuracy dissuaded me from using the bardiche. Shouldn't it?
By the time you can swing the Bardiche at or close to min. delay, you get plenty of +accuracy from your skills to offset that penalty.
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Post Friday, 2nd September 2016, 12:54

Re: MiBe, advice for noob

Berserking is often a good option in the late game, especially when you have an antimagic weapon and your opponent doesn't do anything threatening other than cast spells. If you really want to bring it, though, use Brothers in Arms as many times as seems appropriate to the threat before berserking. There are essentially no monsters in this game that could've killed this character berserking with bros.

What these guys are saying about your weapon selection is on target. If you skill polearms to 25 you really need to be using a bardiche unless you find some one in a million glaive or demon trident.

Looking at the character, the main thing that jumps out at me is that you should have higher AC. You must have gotten fairly unlucky with scrolls or wasted them somehow.
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