Lamp of fire


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 14:07

Lamp of fire

How does evocation affect number of fire elementals from lamp of fire? I have just summoned 2 elementals despite my Evocations is only 7.3. Is it random or is there a breakpoint?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 14:52

Re: Lamp of fire

Here's some relevant code:
  Code:
static int _num_evoker_elementals(int surge)
{
    int n = 1;
    const int adjusted_power =
        player_adjust_evoc_power(you.skill(SK_EVOCATIONS, 10), surge);
    if (adjusted_power + random2(70) > 110)
        ++n;
    if (adjusted_power + random2(70) > 170)
        ++n;
    return n;
}

  Code:
const int player_adjust_evoc_power(const int power, int enhancers)
{
    const int total_enhancers = you.spec_evoke() + enhancers;
    return stepdown_spellpower(100 *apply_enhancement(power, total_enhancers));
}

So looks like there is randomness involved. To get 2 and 3 elementals you need 40 and 100 adjusted_power. Looks like Evo 10 has some meaning. I don't feel like digging into this further, maybe someone else will...
HOFEMDHeHuReMDHuHOCjDsHuNaCjHuHuSENeGEFEMDBeDDFiHOWzVpVMHuEEHEMoDEHuDDAsHaBeKoAK
CeVMMfWnMiAKTeAMDrIEFoVMVSFiMuVMGhGlVpMoHaWrSpWzOgGlTrMoCeWnMfBeMiSkDrEEGrFiFoGlDgEnFeNe
OpGlHuSuDDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVMHaAMBaEnHuMoHOWnDsWzDDHuDgWnGnBeFeIEMiEnMfCj

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Sandman25

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 15:07

Re: Lamp of fire

you.skill(SK_EVOCATIONS, 10) means Evocations is multiplied by 10.

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Sprucery

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 17:01

Re: Lamp of fire

In Trunk Fan/Lamp dont make allies anymore, and Stone has been removed.

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Dis Charger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 17:49

Re: Lamp of fire

Yea elemental evokers were nerfed to the point of being useless now.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 18:13

Re: Lamp of fire

In trunk, evocations are just ... worst idea to invest in. Pak is gone, wands are garbage. Nemelex is Invo based. Only usefull stuff for evocations are rods and cloak of garbasibility.
Sad times.

Ar is more difficult than Wn right now. Starting kit is just laughable. One wand that puffs flame hitting once in a Xom's weekend, one wand that can kill you, because hello hasted uniques, and one wand that is usefull for quoka kidnapping.
0 fightning, 0 short blades, 3 evo.

remove evocation and just make a hobo background
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 18:17

Re: Lamp of fire

I like the nerf and sack of spiders changes too, Evo is not OP now and it is good.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 18:18

Re: Lamp of fire

vergil wrote:Only usefull stuff for evocations are rods and cloak of garbasibility.

have you ever actually used sack of spiders/new box of beasts

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Arrhythmia, nago, vergil

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 18:19

Re: Lamp of fire

Right, forgot about those.

Edit: I miss Nemelex as Evo. FeelsBadMan
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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 18:54

Re: Lamp of fire

Hex wands are actually quite good and Ar is a great background that has all the tools to consistently survive the earlygame. Enslavement is very, very powerful.

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 19:06

Re: Lamp of fire

I'd rather grab a decent weapon, and reach min delay with it, instead of trying to fiddle with the enslavement. Getting recharge is random. How's 15 charges help with on surviving early game? Wand will screw overall character development without Pak. Praising random to give me another wand and an ID scroll? Or trying to get that magnificent sack of spider beasts on D:5? MR punchthrough needs Evocation investment, and that doesn't help either.

I had a game with Sigmund, Menkanture, and Grinder on D:3. Enslavement helped me. I threw it at them.

Right.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"Ar is a great background that has all the tools to consistently screw the earlygame."
Fixed that for you.
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Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 19:25

Re: Lamp of fire

vergil wrote:I threw it at them.

You're supposed to evoke it (the key for it is v and then target the creature you want to enslave. Of course it won't work if you just throw it, that's silly!

Swamp Slogger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 19:53

Re: Lamp of fire

Image
Image
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Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 19:56

Re: Lamp of fire

Spoiler: show
Image
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 19:59

Re: Lamp of fire

Sar wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image


"Emily Bukkake"
take it easy

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 20:36

Re: Lamp of fire

Disc of storms and staff of channeling still in the game? Then evo still good, thx
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 20:54

Re: Lamp of fire

Arrhythmia wrote:"Emily Bukkake"

Watch out! I've got a black belt in bukkake!
HOFEMDHeHuReMDHuHOCjDsHuNaCjHuHuSENeGEFEMDBeDDFiHOWzVpVMHuEEHEMoDEHuDDAsHaBeKoAK
CeVMMfWnMiAKTeAMDrIEFoVMVSFiMuVMGhGlVpMoHaWrSpWzOgGlTrMoCeWnMfBeMiSkDrEEGrFiFoGlDgEnFeNe
OpGlHuSuDDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVMHaAMBaEnHuMoHOWnDsWzDDHuDgWnGnBeFeIEMiEnMfCj
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 21:11

Re: Lamp of fire

vergil wrote:How's 15 charges help with on surviving early game?
By letting you trivially survive any dangerous encounter with an enemy like an adder or gnoll or Sigmund or whatever by enslaving them
vergil wrote:Wand will screw overall character development without Pak.
No, it won't, because Evocations was actually already a good skill before Pak was introduced, and remains a good skill after Pak is gone-you're just used to it being overpowered.
vergil wrote:Praising random to give me another wand and an ID scroll? Or trying to get that magnificent sack of spider beasts on D:5? MR punchthrough needs Evocation investment, and that doesn't help either.
Even if wands weren't fairly common(they are), you don't need any other evocables besides what Ar starts with to get through the most dangerous parts of the game. They start with plenty of charges, and the enemies that you need to survive have bad MR, so you don't actually even need to train it if you don't want to.
vergil wrote:I had a game with Sigmund, Menkanture, and Grinder on D:3. Enslavement helped me. I threw it at them.
Maybe you should have used your wand of flame to kill Menkaure in 2 hits since he has rF-, and your wand of enslavement to trivialize the other 2 since they have bad MR?

Calling Ar bad because you're too lazy to hit V and then another button when something dangerous comes along makes you look bad, not Ar.

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 21:13

Re: Lamp of fire

Sprucery wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:"Emily Bukkake"

Watch out! I've got a black belt in bukkake!


I can't think of a single more intimidating sentence.
take it easy
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 02:12

Re: Lamp of fire

Arrhythmia wrote:
Sprucery wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:"Emily Bukkake"

Watch out! I've got a black belt in bukkake!


I can't think of a single more intimidating sentence.


shows what u know. bukkake belts go from black to white :p
"No one should have two lives / Now you know my middle names are wrong and right / But baby there's no guidance / When random rules"

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Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 07:28

Re: Lamp of fire

I like how you keep ignoring the recharge is random fact.
What if had used all the charges, then what?

Also, stop living in a world of fantasy, where monsters do not have MR. Enslavement isn't a solution to everything.

Shard1697 wrote:Maybe you should have used your wand of flame to kill Menkaure in 2 hits since he has rF-

That's what I did. Thank you Captain Obvious. Except it was in 5 hits, because you know. Random accuracy of the wand.

Shard1697 wrote:Calling Ar bad because you're too lazy to hit V and then another button when something dangerous comes along makes you look bad, not Ar.

Dude, Nemelex was my fauvorite god when it was Evo based. Maybe I didn't even back then pressed V?

Ar is a challange background that was based on something else when it was introduced. Nemelex was the king of Evo. I don't really care about Pak.
Also, maybe you can say that the stat distribution is great too? And no weapon on choice is a good thing? Even freaking Mo got a weapon now. Lmao

Yeah, that's me lazy, not the devs, that constantly remove features, forgeting the other thing based on them and not having a rework of older backgrounds.

I'm not skilling Evocation until usefull stuff comes in sight. I'd rather have an infinite amount of attacks that actually HIT stuff, and do damage.
Wand drops are random. It is foolishly to presume they will drop as often as enemy's generate.

Sure, you can try to fail a ton of times on enslaving things, instead of actually killing them. I'd rather kill'em for good.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 13:14

Re: Lamp of fire

Monster MR exists but you still won't need many charges for any notable early-game monster. Enslave can obviously be used to kill the enslaved monster, come on. The flame wand is clearly good (for instance, it will take care of gnolls, orc wizards/priests, ogres and a few uniques very well). Random effects maybe isn't the best idea if you have no way to escape a hasted monster, but if you do have that or just use it standing on stairs, it's quite good as well.

So all of your 45 wand charges are useful. That number is more than enough to get you far enough to allow training other skills/finding other items to deal with difficult fights, and the wands are some of the most safe methods of dealing with dangerous early monsters. Of course Ar isn't the best background, if you compare it to Be or something. But just look at how easily Ar can deal with the monsters above compared to many other backgrounds.

I don't skill Evo with Ar for a long time because it just isn't necessary. The lack of weapon choice may be a little annoying but it honestly isn't that big a deal because your wands will carry you to your first branded or otherwise decent weapon.
Last edited by cerebovssquire on Monday, 22nd August 2016, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 13:30

Re: Lamp of fire

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 14:39

Re: Lamp of fire

Your linked example has you surviving on a 34% chance against prince ribbit, after successfully charming a wyvern, orc warrior, and centaur. While a nice survival, you simply got lucky, so I don't see how that shows ARs being a good background.

With a lot of backgrounds I could win against that situation 33% of the time by just pressing tab until the situation is resolved.

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vergil

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 14:48

Re: Lamp of fire

dowan wrote:Your linked example has you surviving on a 34% chance against prince ribbit, after successfully charming a wyvern, orc warrior, and centaur. While a nice survival, you simply got lucky, so I don't see how that shows ARs being a good background.

With a lot of backgrounds I could win against that situation 33% of the time by just pressing tab until the situation is resolved.

I am not sure you got the whole picture. It's 56 HP PC vs Prince Rabbbit (attack 20 with speed 14), Centaur, Orc Warrior with wand of lightning (I recently died to 25 damage from wand of lightning by simple Kobold who has HD 1) and Orc Priest. What other background can do that?

  Code:
Aim: a centaur (lightly wounded, chance to defeat MR: 51%)


  Code:
Prince Ribbit hits your centaur.
The orc warrior zaps a wand.
The bolt of lightning hits you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
Huge Dmg: -33%(-22hp) hp: 8%(5hp)


  Code:
Aim: an orc warrior, wielding a scimitar, wearing a plate armour and carrying a wand of lightning {zapped: 2} (chance to defeat MR: 51%)

Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 15:56

Re: Lamp of fire

Ar is a top tier background in gnollcrawl, isn't that what really matters?
Remove spell hunger.

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Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 06:36

Re: Lamp of fire

vergil wrote:I like how you keep ignoring the recharge is random fact.
What if had used all the charges, then what?


You seem to be thinking that this is a background that is supposed to fight everything and clear the whole game using evocations, while the other posters are mostly talking about it as "melee dude who busts out the /enslavement in sticky situations". Played like that, you wouldn't be any more desperate for ?recharging than gladiators are for extra nets. Not to say that more nets is bad... it's just not anywhere near necessary to win a gladiator.

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Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 09:00

Re: Lamp of fire

genericpseudonym wrote:
vergil wrote:I like how you keep ignoring the recharge is random fact.
What if had used all the charges, then what?


You seem to be thinking that this is a background that is supposed to fight everything and clear the whole game using evocations, while the other posters are mostly talking about it as "melee dude who busts out the /enslavement in sticky situations". Played like that, you wouldn't be any more desperate for ?recharging than gladiators are for extra nets. Not to say that more nets is bad... it's just not anywhere near necessary to win a gladiator.


But it is necessary to use wands, if you want to win an Ar. You can toss out nets as soon as you started Gl and win easily.

I'm not thinking that way btw. I'm more keen on this -> "melee dude who busts out the /enslavement in sticky situations". Problem is, sometimes D:1-D:5 is a random abomination. 2-3 uniques on the floor, poor rolls on PC melee atacks and you're already screwed. Having 1 fightning 0 weapon skill at the start is a pain. Sure, you can enslave everything, but sometimes things doesn't go well, and that 61% turns out 25%. 4 charges wasted, 0 output received.

Whole "you'll enslave a thing and win the game" is absolutely random. Sometimes it procs all the time. And on the another try - you'll be sitting in the face of adler, trying to save yourself after 2-3 evoke's and that will fail (overexaggeration, saying specifically for those who doesn't understand it).

Starting an Ar is a pain. Sure, it can deal with the most of the treats, that'll probably kill other characters. But Ar failes in basics of all characters - pump your killdudes to 1% failure\mindelay, and you can kill everything. Instead, you have to rely on random mostly, praying that ego\decent weapon or weapon at all will spawn in D:1-D:5.
I had a game in which I was stuck in a game with spear of freezing, because I haven't found anything decent for a long-long time.
Another game I had +12 slaying from the start (rings+2 randarts). I'd say it's a "praise for a random" background. Even Wn is better to me, since it's got at least a BIT of skill trained behind those items presented at the start.

Having abysmal stats distribution, and no weapon skill at the start, poor random on rolls, and you have to kill stuff with wand of fire in a corridor, because melee failed you. And even that isn't a life savior, because of lack of accuracy on the wand of fire, and randomness of enslavement.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 12:54

Re: Lamp of fire

I feel you are exaggerating a lot. The chance of finding a short sword, mace, falchion or whatever on D:1/2 is almost 100%. Then just use that. It's not like you need a branded high-tier weapon to kill all early game monsters.

That fact that Ar plays a little different, by giving strong but finite ways for dealing with dangerous monsters, is actually really nice. It's a good and reasonably strong background.

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Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 13:06

Re: Lamp of fire

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I feel you are exaggerating a lot. The chance of finding a short sword, mace, falchion or whatever on D:1/2 is almost 100%. Then just use that. It's not like you need a branded high-tier weapon to kill all early game monsters.

That fact that Ar plays a little different, by giving strong but finite ways for dealing with dangerous monsters, is actually really nice. It's a good and reasonably strong background.


Just try it yourself. When a single hobgoblin drops you to low hp because you've missed 5 times in a row with a short sword will change your mind.

Oh and Ar starts with one btw. That's helpfull... I guess.

Use an Ds (-1 to everything in the world) for maximum agony of flaming butt.
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 15:39

Re: Lamp of fire

@vergil: Actually, Ar is good.
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Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 16:09

Re: Lamp of fire

goodcoolguy wrote:@vergil: Actually, Ar is good.

If you're playing gnollcrawl - then sure.
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 16:10

Re: Lamp of fire

Also if you're playing crawl.
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Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 16:10

Re: Lamp of fire

goodcoolguy wrote:Also if you're playing crawl.

Not really
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Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 16:33

Re: Lamp of fire

Yes. Try zapping flame at very early hobgoblin? I'm not sure what to tell you, you don't run out of charges fast enough to make it not worth having great wands compared to better melee weapon when you can just find better melee weapon before long. Short sword isn't even bad on first couple floors.

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Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 16:53

Re: Lamp of fire

Shard1697 wrote:Yes. Try zapping flame at very early hobgoblin? I'm not sure what to tell you, you don't run out of charges fast enough to make it not worth having great wands compared to better melee weapon when you can just find better melee weapon before long. Short sword isn't even bad on first couple floors.


That's what I'm doing. When the things getting hairy, I use wands. Problem is - sometimes things can get hairy really, really early. Like a first mob is adler, 5 misses in a row, monters that somehow with 61% MR proc chance not getting enslaved in 3-4 zaps, lack of damage and accuracy, and so on and so forth. Idk really what to do right now. I'm not even trying seriously anymore. I guess the best bet is to take a break.

Wands are great, and they're awesome. Real problem is - lack of weapon skill in the beggining, slow exp gain apt's for Ds and complete randomness on what you get in the first floors.

- Hey, I wanna use long swords in this run! - me.
- Nope, not gonna happen (deletes all long blades from the D for until D:9) - random.

- Okay, now I'm going to use tridents instead,- me.
- Nope, kek, have some spear of freezing until you die in D:15,- random.
(c) Real thing that happened to me.

Feels like I've wasted all my random power on that DsAs. Or it's just my mental breakdown.
In any case, that's my subjective thoughts and expierience. I'm wrong, and\or missing something.
Spoiler: show
Like playing anything else except MiBe^Trog for example


I think it just requires more luck than skill, when it comes to Ar. That's it. Not going to bragg about it anymore.
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Road to: Great Ds (6/25): DsFi^Gozag 3 R, DsGl^Qaz 4 R, DsMo^Chei 5 R, {DsHu^Uska 6 R, DsAs^Uska 7 R}, DsAr^Chei 8 R.
In progress: DsWn... Currently out of time. Maybe someday.

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Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 17:31

Re: Lamp of fire

vergil wrote:Wands are great, and they're awesome. Real problem is - lack of weapon skill in the beggining, slow exp gain apt's for Ds and complete randomness on what you get in the first floors.

- Hey, I wanna use long swords in this run! - me.
- Nope, not gonna happen (deletes all long blades from the D for until D:9) - random.

- Okay, now I'm going to use tridents instead,- me.
- Nope, kek, have some spear of freezing until you die in D:15,- random.
(c) Real thing that happened to me.


Demonspawn have -1 in every melee aptitude aside from Fighting. This suggests that they're equally good with anything they can pick up... and, therefore, that they should be using the best weapon they find early instead of trying to hold out for something different.

-1 is not too slow with focused training.
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Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 28th August 2016, 14:35

Re: Lamp of fire

@vergil: re: "I want to go long blades this run." I think you should set goals like "I want to win this run." To that end, just train whatever drops that's good.
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Swamp Slogger

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Joined: Wednesday, 13th July 2016, 09:30

Post Sunday, 28th August 2016, 15:03

Re: Lamp of fire

Ofc I train weapon skills for a good drop weapons.
Those advices... ugh. :?

There's always a desirable weapon and strat I'm aiming to go. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it isn't. In those cases I pickup best I can and do what I can do best with it.
Online Statistics
Road to: Great Ds (6/25): DsFi^Gozag 3 R, DsGl^Qaz 4 R, DsMo^Chei 5 R, {DsHu^Uska 6 R, DsAs^Uska 7 R}, DsAr^Chei 8 R.
In progress: DsWn... Currently out of time. Maybe someday.

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2995

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Monday, 29th August 2016, 07:37

Re: Lamp of fire

Just try it yourself. When a single hobgoblin drops you to low hp because you've missed 5 times in a row with a short sword will change your mind.


There are other backgrounds that have a much higher chance of dying against adders. If the adder is next to you and you've already missed a few times with wand of flame, maybe it's time to enslave and tw the monster before you take a few hits.

The argument that Ar can die against early-game monsters if you get an incredibly unlucky series of rolls only disproves that they are invincible, which noone is claiming. The situation you describe doesn't happen often and when it does, it usually isn't a death sentence if you adjust your tactics accordingly.

I don't think I've ever run out of charges before completing D:3 at least, and D:4 or 5 is probably closer to average. I do use the charges quite aggressively.

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Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1708

Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05

Post Monday, 29th August 2016, 08:23

Re: Lamp of fire

Right. It's literally possible to get unlucky enough that your wands repeatedly fail to deal with the situation, yes... but less likely than getting unlucky enough that your melee repeatedly fails to deal with the situation on a melee start!

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