executioners/tzitzimimeh

[duvessa]

Executioners: Still More Dangerous Than Tzitzimitl™

Mod edit: split from GDD

[claws]

I will admit Tzitzimimeh are still too scattered to be functional, and they probably need to lose Bolt of Cold for extra Torment / Dispel (or the miasma ring could be dropped for a single cloud directly under the player or whatever).

[Sar]

Executioners are actually really scary if you play a character without good AC. Anyway, what about giving them corrosive attacks?

[duvessa]

Tzitzimimeh are stronger than executioners in all respects (except speed, but you could argue that anything of speed 10 is harmless)

except speed and ability to kill you
turns out those are kind of important

if executioners have really become much less dangerous compared to other 1s over the years (which I doubt) it sounds like the problem is power creep, not executioners being 1s

[PleasingFungus]

executioners killed my last extended character, so for reasons of transparent bias, i have to oppose any argument for buffing them.

they're still a very solid pan killer in general, ahead of ice fiends and tzitzis. by power of anecdote & stats combined, i conclude they're no less deserving of being 1s than, well, half of the other monsters in that glyph

The wiki says that hell beasts have randomized stats. Do all hell beasts in one playthrough have the same stats (damage, had, speed)?

they haven't had randomized stats for the last year+. however, when they did have randomized stats, each hell beast was randomized separately.

[genericpseudonym]

He's not disagreeing with the statement that Tzitziwhatevers are "stronger than executioners in all respects (except speed)"
He's saying "yes, but the fact that Executioners have higher speed makes them more able to kill you".

[duvessa]

If tzitzimimeh were three times faster then they would outclass executioners in every. single. way. So: no, it is just speed.

if executioners were three times faster they could do 450 damage in 10 aut. what's your point?

[jwoodward48ss]

On the topic of tzitzimimeh and executioners: Executioners' speed is their danger-part. You can't run away, which is the best escape method ever. And you have to multiply their damage by X. Also, less time for ranged fighters to attack with bows, etc. If Executioners were slower, they'd be less dangerous. Duh. But they aren't, so who cares?

On the topic of Garyon: He doesn't summon hell beasts anymore, he nonsummons demons.

Edit: I'm an idiot, he still does. But the main danger is the demons coming from the other parts.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

If tzitzimimeh were three times faster then they would outclass executioners in every. single. way. So: no, it is just speed.

if executioners were three times faster they could do 450 damage in 10 aut. what's your point?

you're fighting a lost battle with your pedantry. Tzitzimimeh can already do more than 450 damage in 10 aut, they don't even need to be any faster.

[Shard1697]

Tzitzimimeh can already do more than 450 damage in 10 aut,

No, they can't. They're a speed 10 monster with a few attacks that do either 3d32 or 3d29 damage(max 96), lowerable by resistances, and torment... are you talking about a player character with 900 max HP or something?

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Yes, I am. It is a scenario far likelier than the 1 in 19,683,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance of an executioner dealing 450 damage over 9 actions to a character with 0 AC (that's assuming it doesn't cast pain).

[lethediver]

Im with the gargoyle on this one. Executioners, at the depth u usually face them, are dangerous if youre diving or completely forgot to train defenses and dont have any good summons. Tzitzis never stop being dangerous... Torment and dispel undead on the same monster??? U devs really wanted to teach my deep dwarf a lesson about overreliance on necromutation to avoid hemmorhaging hp to torments didnt you...

[tabstorm]

I will admit Tzitzimimeh are still too scattered to be functional, and they probably need to lose Bolt of Cold for extra Torment / Dispel (or the miasma ring could be dropped for a single cloud directly under the player or whatever).

You realize they aren't functional because they don't have an attack that can realistically bring an XL27 character to 0 HP, right? None of the changes in the Shadow Fiend -> Titz really accomplished anything aside from giving them Sequell resistance and making them more effective at killing undead. Maybe that was the goal, I don't know. None of the attack flavors do enough damage to really do anything of note and seem to just be there for flavor, and the miasma cloud ring is useless because it is usually not in your interests to move around in melee when already next to a tormentor. You want to kill it as fast as possible, so why would you ever move into the miasma cloud? Besides, you will have more teleports and blinks than you could ever need in extended, it isn't a meaningful positional challenge.

Look at the other 1's. Hell Sentinels and Brimstone Fiends have Hellfire. Ice Fiends have af:cold. Titz can get an indirect kill at best with the help of another monster if you are not undead. At least executioners have 30,10,10 at speed 30-ish but it's not like that will punch through most characters' AC.