Holy pan

[Arrhythmia]

Holypan is way less dangerous than most levels of Pan though.

(split from GDD)

[dowan]

Holypan is way less dangerous than most levels of Pan though.

But... no it isn't...

[Arrhythmia]

Holypan is way less dangerous than most levels of Pan though.

But... no it isn't...

Yes, it is!

[Sandman25]

Not sure why you are arguing, it depends on character (ignoring even species here).

[jwoodward48ss]

TSO can't help you here...

undead beware...

[dowan]

TSO makes extended super easy, except holy pan. HW brand does nothing there, unlike the rest of extended. There are lots of high HP smiting angels, and if you're undead you're really in trouble thanks to all the HW weapons. The rune is also guarded by a monster far more dangerous than the vast majority of the random pan lords who guard the randomly placed demonic runes.

This is why I consider holy pan much harder than any random pan level. Note when I do extended I'm either following TSO, or undead and following someone else, and either situation only makes the holy pan situation worse. But angels are tougher than most demons for any character.

[arandomperson12]

TSO makes you immune to Ophan holy flames and pearl dragon breath though.

[Sar]

When I get to Holypan as a TSO follower I just skip it ASAP because it doesn't make sense for me to butcher the followers of my god even if they don't accept me.

[jwoodward48ss]

Why does holy pan even exist?

[Lacuenta]

Holypan is awesome, even as an avid ds/mu player I always like it when I find it, its like a breath of fresh air amidst the tedium and amalgam of sameness which ecompasses the concept of pan.

[KoboldLord]

The problem with Holy Pan is that it is an incredibly densely populated collection of all the most annoying monsters that still exist in the game. The only relatively recent monster collections that were unambiguously more annoying were the Forest branch and pre-nerf doom hounds. Even if it is easy to clear Holy Pan, it probably won't be much fun because there are a billion monsters in it that are specifically designed to be as obnoxious as possible while you're getting rid of them, and they respawn almost as fast as you can kill them.

[Sar]

Ophans are kind of annoying because you have to confirm entering their clouds every damn time, but others? Cherubs and apises are actually pretty plain, angels are a good enemy, just fast melee with a dash of self-heal, daevas are okay, pearl dragons are okay. I mean, I'd agree with you back when shedu and phoenixes existed (whyyy), but they don't exist anymore.

[Leszczynek]

Why does holy pan even exist?

Because it's cool and also a source of !cMut, good large shields and decently enchanted holy weapons.

[Arrhythmia]

TSO makes extended super easy, except holy pan. HW brand does nothing there, unlike the rest of extended. There are lots of high HP smiting angels, and if you're undead you're really in trouble thanks to all the HW weapons. The rune is also guarded by a monster far more dangerous than the vast majority of the random pan lords who guard the randomly placed demonic runes.

This is why I consider holy pan much harder than any random pan level. Note when I do extended I'm either following TSO, or undead and following someone else, and either situation only makes the holy pan situation worse. But angels are tougher than most demons for any character.

Usually when I do Pan, I'm neither following TSO nor undead.

I suppose we all learned a valuable lesson about biases here today.

[Sprucery]

I suppose we all learned a valuable lesson about biases here today.

Tsk tsk...

[dowan]

Ophans are kind of annoying because you have to confirm entering their clouds every damn time, but others? Cherubs and apises are actually pretty plain, angels are a good enemy, just fast melee with a dash of self-heal, daevas are okay, pearl dragons are okay. I mean, I'd agree with you back when shedu and phoenixes existed (whyyy), but they don't exist anymore.

Hmm, I guess it's been a while since I've been to holy pan then, because shedu and phoenixes were there last time I went. Well I suppose I'll have to wait till I experience the current version of Holy Pan to comment on it's relative difficulty.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Holy pan is nice because of the guaranteed rune with a fixed location. The enemy density is quite high so it can be a bit tricky. Daevas can be annoying if the have large shields.

[Shtopit]

I would like it if pearl dragons were turned into phoenices with exactly the same stats and mechanics.

[stickyfingers]

Holy pan is the only instantly recognizable guaranteed demonic rune vault, so I usually clear it when doing extended, even as undead. And summon hollies is annoying.

[Sar]

relative difficulty

Shedu and phoenixes weren't difficult, they were kind of annoying. I dunno how the spawns work, but if some of their spawns were replaced by angels and daevas, that's more of an increase in difficulty.

Silver stars though, those things were evil. I miss them.

[Shtopit]

Holy pan is the only instantly recognizable guaranteed demonic rune vault, so I usually clear it when doing extended, even as undead. And summon hollies is annoying.

Is it? I'm just asking, because, when I got it, I had already got the rune. if you don't have the rune, it's guaranteed to spawn in Holyp?

[Arrhythmia]

Holy pan is the only instantly recognizable guaranteed demonic rune vault, so I usually clear it when doing extended, even as undead. And summon hollies is annoying.

Is it? I'm just asking, because, when I got it, I had already got the rune. if you don't have the rune, it's guaranteed to spawn in Holyp?

Yes.

[njvack]

And summon hollies is annoying.

That sounds like a Fedhas ability.

[stickyfingers]

Well, Fedhas is annoying, so everything adds up

[Hurkyl]

angels are a good enemy, just fast melee with a dash of self-heal, daevas are okay,

And the AC and the large shield! It takes a ridiculously long time for my quick blade users to kill them.

[Sar]

Well, a bad character might have trouble killing strong enemies, though monster SH is possibly a bit too good.

[bcadren]

Holy Pan is one of the reasons I like doing Hell before pan. Daevas with their SH and their Smiting are Greater Mummy tier threats...that cannot be silenced and are very very swingy to melee; nearly impossible to hit with ranged weapons (especially now that penetration is gone; ignoring monster SH was one of the bonuses of that brand). But with the Staff of Dispater...BAMF! 2 Shots, works everytime all the time.

That said; I do think Holy Pan is pretty badly designed still; in the same way that old tomb was. What's actually deadly to most characters in Holy Pan? Angels (Mummy Priests) and Daevas (Greater Mummies); with the latter being worse; and there's a melee only creature that hits surprisingly hard, but is generally harmless unless you have poor AC Bennu (Guardian Mummy). The other spawns are mostly harmless.

[Or in clearer terms; the actual DEADLY thing to the floor is SPAMMED and it's only 2 monster types.]

[Sandman25]

Holy Pan is one of the reasons I like doing Hell before pan. Daevas with their SH and their Smiting are Greater Mummy tier threats...that cannot be silenced and are very very swingy to melee; nearly impossible to hit with ranged weapons (especially now that penetration is gone; ignoring monster SH was one of the bonuses of that brand). But with the Staff of Dispater...BAMF! 2 Shots, works everytime all the time.

That said; I do think Holy Pan is pretty badly designed still; in the same way that old tomb was. What's actually deadly to most characters in Holy Pan? Angels (Mummy Priests) and Daevas (Greater Mummies); with the latter being worse; and there's a melee only creature that hits surprisingly hard, but is generally harmless unless you have poor AC Bennu (Guardian Mummy). The other spawns are mostly harmless.

[Or in clearer terms; the actual DEADLY thing to the floor is SPAMMED and it's only 2 monster types.]

What you described makes me think it is well designed, not badly. Holy pan is my favorite level in extended. Thanks for note about staff of dispater, never knew it's so powerful.