Stabbing (split from GDD)

[dynast]

What is a "good" stabber background?(please dont say En please dont say En please dont say En...)

[Arrhythmia]

What is a "good" stabber background?(please dont say En please dont say En please dont say En...)

En

[dynast]

What is a "good" stabber background?(please dont say En please dont say En please dont say En...)

En

dang it!

[dynast]

My principal complaint is that the stealth skill and dagger fools new players into thinking As is a stabber start.

What if i told you that the Hexes skill fools new players into thinking En is a stabber start? Most of the players who play enchanter stabbers eventually hit the brick wall of "i cannot hex or stab this foe" while assassin stabbers are constantly tumbling into the road blocks "i cannot stab this foe". Who do you think will come to the conclusion that stabbing is not gonna carry him through the game first? my point is, there is no such thing as "fooling" the player and, again, if there is, its the 27 skill cap for sblades and stealth. Does those things needs to be fixed? i dont think so. Could As be changed to fit its role better? Yes.

[genericpseudonym]

My principal complaint is that the stealth skill and dagger fools new players into thinking As is a stabber start.

What if i told you that the Hexes skill fools new players into thinking En is a stabber start? Most of the players who play enchanter stabbers eventually hit the brick wall of "i cannot hex or stab this foe" while assassin stabbers are constantly tumbling into the road blocks "i cannot stab this foe". Who do you think will come to the conclusion that stabbing is not gonna carry him through the game first? my point is, there is no such thing as "fooling" the player and, again, if there is, its the 27 skill cap for sblades and stealth. Does those things needs to be fixed? i dont think so. Could As be changed to fit its role better? Yes.

Hexes can carry you through the early game but eventually fall off when you start running into high-MR foes, so enchanters have to branch out into another source of killdudes. This is somewhat similar to poison magic.

Meanwhile "pure" stealth doesn't fall off when enemies start resisting it, it's just an unreliable rng mechanic straight from turn 1. I'm not saying that stealth in general is too unreliable, just staying in stealth for long enough to walk up to something and daggerstab it. And the fact that assassins start with dagger + stealth tricks new players into thinking that kind of stealth-stab gameplay is viable.

[dynast]

Hexes can carry you through the early game but eventually fall off when you start running into high-MR foes, so enchanters have to branch out into another source of killdudes.

Is it really? Is that how players play enchanters? "im gonna train fighting, sblades, dodging, armor, shields, stealth, spellcasting, hexes and then im gonna branch into something else." Yeah, sorry i dont see new players doing that, i dont see experienced players doing that either.

I'm not saying that stealth in general is too unreliable,

But it is, in fact, thats the first thing someone playing As will notice, thats where they make the leap to playing Enchanters. "stealth/stab is not working, i need something else, hum lets see, what sinergises well with stabbing?"

And the fact that assassins start with dagger + stealth tricks new players into thinking that kind of stealth-stab gameplay is viable.

I like that starting with something unrealiable tricks the player into thinking its viable, meanwhile starting with a book that will carry you to the first 2 runes teaches players that they should branch to different things. Yeah I dont buy it, i think its best we just disagree and leave it at that.

[Shard1697]

Is it really? Is that how players play enchanters?

Yes? Personally I usually branch into summoning, ideally with Mana Vipers if I can find it.

[genericpseudonym]

Is it really? Is that how players play enchanters? "im gonna train fighting, sblades, dodging, armor, shields, stealth, spellcasting, hexes and then im gonna branch into something else." Yeah, sorry i dont see new players doing that, i dont see experienced players doing that either.

Sorry, how do you play Enchanter if it isn't "cast Hibernation on enemy and then poke with dagger, repeat x1000"?

I like that starting with something unrealiable tricks the player into thinking its viable, meanwhile starting with a book that will carry you to the first 2 runes teaches players that they should branch to different things. Yeah I dont buy it, i think its best we just disagree and leave it at that.

En teaches players that "cast Hibernation on enemy and then poke with dagger" is viable, although it eventually falls off and the game doesn't hint very much to them that they'll have to eventually branch out.

As teaches players that "walk up to enemy with stealth and then poke with dagger" is viable, which wrong from turn 1.

[dynast]

I was just looking at the last few --En wins before making the post and aside from the last one who was a club ogre who went full melee its all "ninjas" and "maledictors", who learned a few other spells but never derailed from their main aspects that is hex/stab/stealth, which was my point also. Saying that a En should branch into something else is a hard to swallow statement that one cant effectively win a hexer/stabber.

edit: learn to use confusion, since its way stronger than EH.

[duvessa]

i wonder where this idea of hexes and Tr "falling off" originally came from, is it carried over from other RPGs where status immune enemies mean something? is it "well, there's no way they'd make a species that's this good ALL game, that'd just be silly"?

[tabstorm]

What is a "good" stabber background?

Good stabber backgrounds include:

[dowan]

What is a "good" stabber background?

Good stabber backgrounds include:

You forgot a couple!
BE
With enough training, these guys can easily stab pan lords!
CK
A dagger of chaos gives many, many stab opportunities. It also gives a lot of horribly dying opportunities! Doubly good!

Of course, EN does give lots of stab opportunities as well. It's weird that we're suddenly pretending it doesn't when it's basically the one real stabbing background.

AS is almost good at stabbing as a wiz... but they start with a dagger...

[HardboiledGargoyle]

i think what dynast may be trying to say is that you can get a lot of stabs just from stealth skill alone. It doesn't kill everything, no. But there are lots of encounters that stabbing does solve, which is great for the player, because you don't have to find an alternate solution to those encounters. If you round a corner and find yourself next to a sleeping unique and you have a dagger in your hands, then you don't have to use consumables or set exclusions or take risks on it, because it's a 1HKO.

i wonder where this idea of [trolls] "falling off" originally came from, ... is it "well, there's no way they'd make a species that's this good ALL game, that'd just be silly"?

well maybe, just maybe, it comes from people finding the game to become harder, and dying, when they play trolls and progress to the middle game.

[dowan]

Hardboiled should get a prize for best earnest responses to snarky questions. Seriously... I gave you a thank, but you deserve so much more...

[Sandman25]

When I was trying to play a non-En stabber, I obviously picked HaAs of Trog because it is stealthy, naturally uses light armour and has good aptitude in throwing/slings for needle-stabbing while Trog will gift you some cool needles.
After several deaths I realized HaBe is a much better stabber, it has a way to deal with failed stealth checks from turn 1.

[Sar]

it has a way to deal with failed stealth checks from turn 1

Was it before you could stab with a blowgun?

[Sandman25]

Was it before you could stab with a blowgun?

Not sure. 0.13-a0-2398-gfa67c8a. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8709

Quote from that OP:

Were there any changes to Stealth recently? I am uncannily stealthy in Orcish Mines but I am noticed by monsters too often and thus I barely stab anything (most are killed in a usual melee way).

[Sar]

Yes, it was before that. Even then, a great way to deal with failed stealth checks on D:1 as an As is to just make blowgun your default form of attack. Probably no longer as good of an idea now that regular needles were nerfed, though!

[WingedEspeon]

before needlestabing was removed, As was a good stabber background.