Troll UC shield build question


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 12:36

Re: Troll UC shield build question

nago wrote:http://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/nago/morgue-nago-20160605-132907.txt


24750 | Orc:1 | HP: 21/85 [sun demon[an orc high priest] (10)]
30027 | Spider:4 | HP: 4/91 [poisoned by a wolf spider]
35169 | Vaults:2 | HP: 9/106 [ancient champion/great sword of freezing (25)]
57961 | Depths:5 | HP: 30/145 [blizzard demon/bolt of cold (16)]

http://underhound.eu:81/crawl/morgue/nago/morgue-nago-20151222-145605.txt


3930 | D:5 | HP: 16/78 [ice beast (5)]
15344 | D:9 | HP: 17/104 [fire drake/blast of flame (13)]
56580 | Vaults:1 | HP: 45/202 [deep elf mage/bolt of lightning[an ironheart preserver] (18)]

Also there are some lines like

  Code:
89514 | Depths:2 | HP: 61/257 [acid (8)]
 89517 | Depths:2 | Killed a caustic shrike
 89553 | Depths:2 | HP: 26/257 [stone giant/large rock (50)]
 89564 | Depths:2 | HP: 6/257 [stone giant (26)]


Where I suspect being at 6 HP as Og has something to do with lack of resists.

You kind of prove that resistances are important IMHO. I was lazy to check other files.

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 12:42

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Sar wrote:I don't care about resistance arguments, but I can thank your post if it makes you feel better!


I wish I could lie and say it doesn't matter but ... it does :) thanks

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Sar

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 12:44

Re: Troll UC shield build question

agentgt wrote:I give up. I don't have enough to back my claim. You guys are right resistances are fine and you shouldn't bother or worry about them much. Mercy.


Don't give up, I am with you :)
I am using warlock's mirror as DgTm (not even Troll) because when I don't have Blade Hands/Dragon Form active, I do want that chance to refuse MR attacks and some extra protection from ranged attacks. Damage is overrated, you can win as Berserker with freezing spear with never berserking. UC is one of the best forms of attacks, it surely can trade damage for defenses and 50% protection from elemental attacks is broken indeed,I was complaining about it (crawl is balanced around you having a single rF+/rC+ etc. and you are in trouble when you are unlucky and don't have it).

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agentgt

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 12:48

Re: Troll UC shield build question

agentgt wrote:It is my opinion ( this is game design but also advice on getting resistance) that 50% damage reduction for a single +r is overpowered.
Nago even proved my point to some degree... the fact that you only need like one ring is proof that resistance are scaled incorrectly.
It should not be so high for a single r+. Elemental damage should be scaled down and you should probably not be rewarded so much for having a single +.
It promotes constant ring swapping which I think is sort of tedious design.


I stated that resistance are useful only in some situations, therefore it is usually bad to commit a not-swappable slot - or sacrifice in this case off-hand punch - to something only for sake of a resist.
This because usually a resist become available in form a swappable jewellery before it matters - for me usually Depths.

In the specific case of a Tr, I'd almost always use a shield because it is often available before dragon armour, and getting some sort of defence isn't a bad idea - but I aim for SH, not for the resist attached to it.

For the rest, yes I also totally agree resists in DCSS are a huge can of worms and I do hope someday a brave dev will rise to face it. But this is a discussion about game design, while the posts were about game advices.


Sandman25 wrote:
Where I suspect being at 6 HP as Og has something to do with lack of resists.

You kind of prove that resistances are important IMHO. I was lazy to check other files.


Don't remember that specific game. It could be, but actually I'm 99,8% positive It depends on the fact I play recklessly by Lair and use just tab, without caring too much of positioning, resistances, abilities and whatever.
If you go watch those games I'm pretty sure I had !resistance, probably the right rings to use and whatever else I just didn't care.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 12:51

Re: Troll UC shield build question

agentgt wrote:It is my opinion ( this is game design but also advice on getting resistance) that 50% damage reduction for a single +r is overpowered.
Nago even proved my point to some degree... the fact that you only need like one ring is proof that resistance are scaled incorrectly.
It should not be so high for a single r+. Elemental damage should be scaled down and you should probably not be rewarded so much for having a single +.
It promotes constant ring swapping which I think is sort of tedious design.


I stated that resistance are useful only in some situations, therefore it is usually bad to commit a not-swappable slot - or sacrifice in this case off-hand punch - to something only for sake of a resist.
This because usually a resist become available in form a swappable jewellery before it matters - for me usually Depths.

In the specific case of a Tr, I'd almost always use a shield because it is often available before dragon armour, and getting some sort of defence isn't a bad idea - but I aim for SH, not for the resist attached to it.

For the rest, yes I also totally agree resists in DCSS are a huge can of worms and I do hope someday a brave dev will rise to face it. But this is a discussion about game design, while the posts were about game advices.

Edit: btw this isn't a personal attack or anything else. I hope you don't feel ambushed by that WWE tag team, whatever it means. [/quote]

Sandman25 wrote:
Where I suspect being at 6 HP as Og has something to do with lack of resists.

You kind of prove that resistances are important IMHO. I was lazy to check other files.


Don't remember that specific game. It could be, but actually I'm 99,8% positive It depends on the fact I play recklessly by Lair and use just tab, without caring too much of positioning, resistances, abilities and whatever.
If you go watch those games I'm pretty sure I had !resistance, probably the right rings to use and whatever else I just didn't care.[/quote]
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 12:53

Re: Troll UC shield build question

nago wrote:Don't remember that specific game. It could be, but actually I'm 99,8% positive It depends on the fact I play recklessly by Lair and use just tab, without caring too much of positioning, resistances, abilities and whatever.
If you go watch those games I'm pretty sure I had !resistance, probably the right rings to use and whatever else I just didn't care.


I do often swap rings so I remember having many situations when I need at least 2 resistances to either having several monsters in view or monsters with spells (probably with several sets of them). See my complaint about Orc Sorcerer, it makes you want rN+, rF+ and MR+++ at the point where you are unlikely to have all of them. Some other bad monsters are Ogre Magic (rF+, rC+, MR+++, rElec)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 13:06

Re: Troll UC shield build question

I don't remember ever swapping rF for orc sorcerer or any resistance except MR for ogre magi so they can't be that important.
DCSS: 77: ...SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDAr
HaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE
{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWr
Bloat: 4: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 13:52

Re: Troll UC shield build question

According to FSIM a single +3 slaying ring will often times do more damage than the offhand punch (which makes since but it appears offhand does slightly better for really low EV monsters). It is about equal on stone giants and almost anything with more EV the ring is more effective.

Rings of slaying are very strong on UC. It is sort of orthogonal to the discussion but something to consider if you are trying to decide what slots to place resistances.

That is if your going for Zot you might want to switch to a smaller rF shield and give up a rF ring slot for the slaying ring since it appears to kill orbs of fire faster. I'm not sure of this so don't take this as advice (and also because fsim and wiz mode are often wrong).

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Arrhythmia, nago

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 13:54

Re: Troll UC shield build question

slaying is so weird

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 14:12

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Sprucery wrote:I don't remember ever swapping rF for orc sorcerer or any resistance except MR for ogre magi so they can't be that important.


It is not a valid argument IMHO.
Compare
"I don't remember ever swapping rF for orb of fire so they can't be that important" to
"I don't remember ever swapping rF for orb of fire so they can't be that important because I win every game and kill all Orbs of Fire I meet"

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 14:15

Re: Troll UC shield build question

agentgt wrote:According to FSIM a single +3 slaying ring will often times do more damage than the offhand punch (which makes since but it appears offhand does slightly better for really low EV monsters). It is about equal on stone giants and almost anything with more EV the ring is more effective.

Rings of slaying are very strong on UC. It is sort of orthogonal to the discussion but something to consider if you are trying to decide what slots to place resistances.

That is if your going for Zot you might want to switch to a smaller rF shield and give up a rF ring slot for the slaying ring since it appears to kill orbs of fire faster. I'm not sure of this so don't take this as advice (and also because fsim and wiz mode are often wrong).


"More damage without shield" works only when you are attacking in melee. Resistance and shield work in many other situations. I don't understand why damage is so overrated, do players often die to a single adjacent "almost dead" monster because that's the only situation where "more damage" might help (ignoring SH here for a second)?

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 14:39

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Sandman25 wrote:
agentgt wrote:According to FSIM a single +3 slaying ring will often times do more damage than the offhand punch (which makes since but it appears offhand does slightly better for really low EV monsters). It is about equal on stone giants and almost anything with more EV the ring is more effective.

Rings of slaying are very strong on UC. It is sort of orthogonal to the discussion but something to consider if you are trying to decide what slots to place resistances.

That is if your going for Zot you might want to switch to a smaller rF shield and give up a rF ring slot for the slaying ring since it appears to kill orbs of fire faster. I'm not sure of this so don't take this as advice (and also because fsim and wiz mode are often wrong).


"More damage without shield" works only when you are attacking in melee. Resistance and shield work in many other situations. I don't understand why damage is so overrated, do players often die to a single adjacent "almost dead" monster because that's the only situation where "more damage" might help (ignoring SH here for a second)?


I entirely agree that damage output is vastly overrated particularly since you can apport most runes anyway. One of the few exceptions I have are Orbs of fire. The new no rMut really makes you consider killing those guys as quick as possible. There are so many god awful muts to have on an orb run (I just died on an orb run recently after getting all 15 runes). Like the mp wand mut combined with teleportis. It doesn't take long to get a nice set of extremely dangerous combo of muts.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 14:41

Re: Troll UC shield build question

agentgt wrote:I entirely agree that damage output is vastly overrated particularly since you can apport most runes anyway. One of the few exceptions I have are Orbs of fire. The new no rMut really makes you consider killing those guys as quick as possible. There are so many god awful muts to have on an orb run (I just died on an orb run recently after getting all 15 runes). Like the mp wand mut combined with teleportis. It doesn't take long to get a nice set of extremely dangerous combo of muts.


Orbs of fire ignore shield completely so you can remove your shield before entering Zot 5 (unless it is your only source of rF+ of course).
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:27

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Sandman25 wrote:that's the only situation where "more damage" might help (ignoring SH here for a second)?


This would only be true if Crawl was a series of one on one cage-matches against foes, but often, one fights multiple foes.
take it easy

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:36

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Arrhythmia wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:that's the only situation where "more damage" might help (ignoring SH here for a second)?


This would only be true if Crawl was a series of one on one cage-matches against foes, but often, one fights multiple foes.


Exactly, that's why extra resistances shine in Vaults 5 with all those Titans, Fire Giants, Frost Giants and Vault Sentinels. You just don't have time (or cannot) swap rings.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:36

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Sandman25 wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:that's the only situation where "more damage" might help (ignoring SH here for a second)?


This would only be true if Crawl was a series of one on one cage-matches against foes, but often, one fights multiple foes.


Exactly, that's why extra resistances shine in Vaults 5 with all those Titans, Fire Giants, Frost Giants and Vault Sentinels. You just don't have time (or cannot) swap rings.


It's half a turn...
take it easy

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:42

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Arrhythmia wrote:It's half a turn...


I've been banished while swapping to MR ring so I can easily imagine getting hit with elemental attack while swapping. 0.5 turn is 71% of time it takes you to attack usually. Also see "can't" because you cannot swap if you can have either rF+ or rC+ (but not both) and have attackers of both kinds in view.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 16:37

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Sandman25 wrote:
Sprucery wrote:I don't remember ever swapping rF for orc sorcerer or any resistance except MR for ogre magi so they can't be that important.


It is not a valid argument IMHO.
Compare
"I don't remember ever swapping rF for orb of fire so they can't be that important" to
"I don't remember ever swapping rF for orb of fire so they can't be that important because I win every game and kill all Orbs of Fire I meet"

To me orc sorcerers are scary because of bolt of draining and paralyse and ogre magi are scary because of banishment. If I'm not scared of being paralysed or banished I always kill them. I don't even check if I have rF, rC or rElec.

I am also pretty sure that I haven't died to either of those monsters in many years. So I am quite confident that those resistances aren't that important against those monsters.
DCSS: 77: ...SpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDAr
HaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE
{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWr
Bloat: 4: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 16:56

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Sprucery wrote:I am also pretty sure that I haven't died to either of those monsters in many years. So I am quite confident that those resistances aren't that important against those monsters.


Lucky you. I remember being one-shot by Ogre Magi with Bolt of Lightning (it got bounced off the wall and monster spells were not displayed in game in that version).

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Post Friday, 26th August 2016, 16:46

Re: Troll UC shield build question

Sandman25 wrote:
agentgt wrote:I entirely agree that damage output is vastly overrated particularly since you can apport most runes anyway. One of the few exceptions I have are Orbs of fire. The new no rMut really makes you consider killing those guys as quick as possible. There are so many god awful muts to have on an orb run (I just died on an orb run recently after getting all 15 runes). Like the mp wand mut combined with teleportis. It doesn't take long to get a nice set of extremely dangerous combo of muts.


Orbs of fire ignore shield completely so you can remove your shield before entering Zot 5 (unless it is your only source of rF+ of course).


However aliches do not ignore shields, and SH is very good for not taking 100+ damage from crystal spears. Unless your troll somehow has castable silence I would prefer higher defenses over the offhand punch.
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